England's Winter of Cricket 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Of course we have the World T20 covered in a separate thread, but I thought we should have a new one for England's upcoming games this winter, which feature:

Three ODIs in Australia (17th-22nd November)
Three tests in Pakistan (1st-21st December)
Three ODIs in South Africa (27th January-1st February)
Two tests in New Zealand (16th-28th February)
Three ODIs in Bangladesh (March)

Looking forward to the tests, but I think the ODIs will be instantly forgettable!

First ODI century for Roy v a test-playing nation since getting one against Bangladesh in the World Cup. Long time ago. Huge innings for him to start 2023.

eirebilly_01 wrote:How fantastic for Roy to get 100

That was actually the most controlled innings i have seen from him.

Hi Billy - yes, and the loss of 3 quick wickets (in 13 balls, I think) made it more tricky for Roy as it was important he stay there and get us closer to the victory target rather than just have a bit of fun and hope for the best.

But ... did he stay long enough and do enough as he falls to an excellent running boundary catch by Parnell off Rabada? I think the answer is ''probably, yes''. Don't blame him for how he was out. Most times it would have been a six and we would be applauding him for the shot. Still would have liked him to have batted another half a dozen overs though. Lose 2 more quickly now (at 204/4) and we're in the soup!

All said and as I don't bet, I'm putting Alfie's money on a 4 wicket England win.

I don’t think Moeen in 2023 justifies his place in the ODI side with either bat or ball. Certainly not batting 6! This is a good chance to establish his place. His terrible form has certainly been overlooked compared to Roy’s.

JDizzle wrote:I don’t think Moeen in 2023 justifies his place in the ODI side with either bat or ball. Certainly not batting 6! This is a good chance to establish his place. His terrible form has certainly been overlooked compared to Roy’s.

I remain sceptical. Bounced out by Magala…

Moeen can still be a useful bowler, but as a batsman he's completely gone.

My predicted 4 wicket win with Alfie's money on it has just gone down the drain with Willey falling to Nortje. 7 down now and 45 still needed ....

Looks like a bad collapse to defeat, but we have to be realistic, England got quite a lot out of that. Big hopes for this tour were largely trying to get Roy back into form and get Archer back without worrying too much about his performances. Trying Stone as another pace option and seeing if Curran can be an ODI death bowler would also have been objectives. All ticks there

Negatives are the aforementioned bad batting from Moeen and Brook failing on debut. Not worried about the second one, agree Moeen can't bat at 6 in the World Cup if we are going to get near winning it

You've got Bairstow, Root, Stokes to all come into that batting - agree, Moeen is at risk with Stokes to come back and Curran's improved white ball showings...only issue is we would then potentially be going with one spinner in a sub continental World Cup.
Does that smell like a Rehan Ahmed for the World Cup bandwagon revving up in the distance JDizzle...?

Massive for Roy to get that very good ton. Incredibly frustrating to lose from there. YJB and Root plus a potential Stokes is so much batting class and firepower I struggle to worry so much on the batting side though. This unit and this style have lost bilateral games before going very hard after losing wickets before under Morgan. When the full strength, experienced side are there for tournament games I think they can balance that better.

The lower middle order balance, the old batting heavy vs bowling heavy debate is where World Cup selection will hinge I reckon. Mo's batting a spot too high but I think his bowling could be useful in India. Likewise his batting strengths suit the conditions there well. For his batting weaknesses which have remained frustratingly similar he is still a fantastic hitter of spin.

I hope Livingstone can string some ODI games together before the CWC. I'm yet convinced by him in the 50 over game but he's got bags of talent and his bowling is more than useful. He could be a candidate for that 6 spot presuming Root, Stokes and Buttler are at 3/4/5 with either Mo or Surran nailed on at 7.

1.YJB 2.??? 3.Root 4.Stokes 5.Buttler (wk) 6.Livi? 7.Mo 8.Surran 9.Woakes 10.Jof/Wood 11.Dilly

In 2019 they had Woakes at 7 so that would be serious firepower lower down. With Buttler shifting up a spot and Morgan (prime Morgs that is...) gone the top 6 is weaker though.

Caught up on the England innings on replay. Let us be honest - that was a diabolical performance after the opening stand. No way a team should lose from there - indicates the minds were scrambled ; which is what tends to happen when you attack a match with winning the game not the main priority...

I understand why they did what they did ; but it shows the game up as basically a practice match . No way does Archer - on this day -  bowl his full ten while Curran and others are left with overs in the bank - if you want to win the game. Shouldn't have mattered really but I can't help thinking that once you start messing around it detracts from the main aim of the game. Some of the batting was frankly ridiculous so I shouldn't really give them any excuses - even the full strength team has had some "throwaways" - but this was bad

Does it matter ? Probably not . Several good players to come back - and the hopeful outsiders didn't do themselves any favours - so no need to panic. Roy getting his first score in ages is surely a good sign. Moeen's batting decline is a concern as his bowling could be handy in India - but hard to fit him in unless he can make a meaningful contribution with the bat. I am not really too annoyed with it but it does seem a classic example of throwing away a win that was all but rubber stamped when the first wicket fell...wasteful.  SA won't mind as it gives them a big lift towards qualification.

On the good side : Archer didn't seem to finish up injured - and he can hardly manage a worse bowling performance in the remaining games so as a reintroduction it isn't all bad. Stone looked OK without suggesting he is going to tear down trees on flat pitches. Curran continues to enhance his reputation - and Rashid is his steady self. Roy the big uptick : let us hope it isn't a one-off...

On a happier note : I switched over, on and off , to the women's U19 WC semi - and watched the concluding stages in full. Remarkable game : England (batting first) were dead and buried at 45/7 but somehow scrambled to 99. Australia were apparently cruising at 39/2 but then wickets fell and it came down to the ninth wicket pair seeking to make the last twenty off four overs . They seemed to be there with a boundary off the first ball of the 18th leaving just four to win - but a direct hit run out and some nerveless death bowing saw them dismissed without further addition. Great match : and a tribute to the young English girls refusing to lie down when defeat had seemed inevitable - several times , actually !
Kudos to their young skipper , Grace Scrivens : she had a (relative) failure with the bat - just 20. But took on the penultimate over with the game on the line and took the deciding wicket. Time will tell how good she is (though her form is very encouraging) but she clearly has some strong mental stuff which might help going forward

It was very poor game management from England. See off Rabada and Nortje and the game was won. Instead England kept going hard, playing into South's Africa's hands, and it cost them the game. Very unintelligent cricket, and the type of situation where Stokes' maturity is much missed.

Ultimately, this ODI team just isn't the same behemoth we saw striding into 2019. From roughly two years out from the last ODI World Cup, England played 8 ODI series, winning 7 and drawing 1, with an overall record of 29 wins from 40 ODIs. This England are currently on a run of just 2 wins from their last 10 ODI games, and haven't won a series in the last 3 attempts.

That's not to say England are suddenly a poor team, but they've struggled to build a consistent XI and consequently they haven't been in the same winning habit. There has been plenty of upheaval and it's showing.

I may be in the minority here regarding Ali, i have no concerns about his ability at all. Sure it was not long ago that his innings in the T20 final was key to England winning it. It was a terrible finish to the game that England should have cruised.

If Roy is back (and I truly hope he is) could we see a pairing of Hales and Roy opening in the ODI WC? Hales is continuing his rich form.

So Bavuma wins the toss and sends England in to bat. Interesting decision for me.

Bit of life in this pitch... Roy fell for 9 and was arguably fortunate to get that far : and Duckett was even more fortunate to survive his first few balls as Ngidi found some serious bounce.

Malan gone too now so Brook is in at 33/2 : would be a good time for him to show he can make runs outside Pakistan

Well if Roy ends this series with a century and two low scores that's just going to confuse things! Massive innings for him and England next time

The SA bowling has been excellent to be fair. England are struggling and it might be difficult to post a score of 230 to 250...

Certainly bowlers on top so far. Contrast with the first game !

Brook gets a very lucky boundary ...and then scores another with one of the most assured shots of the day. Fifty up at least...

If these two can stick in until the 30th over it will be a solid base for a late charge but neither of these two look particularly comfortable out there.

Duckett loses his composure. Poor shot to get out too.

Might be the first time I’ve ever agreed with KP - Duckett is a sweeper. A poor option from him to try and take Maharaj on down the ground. The intent is fine when the pitch is seam friendly, good match up etc but play to your strengths.

I very much enjoy Harry Brook

Bit of a recovery while I've been away , I see ... Useful partnership this with both Brook and Buttler ticking along nicely...

Of course , 144/3 can easily lead to a fold up ...it did on Friday ! But if they play sensibly you'd fancy turning this into a pretty handy total.

Apart from it hitting the glove and being a yard and a half outside off stump, that was a good review by South Africa

Another slightly ropey shot from Brook. Ball was too far away from him to be attempting that shot really, lost all control. A lot of pressure on Buttler now to take this innings deep.

Seems I managed to jinx Brook

Good innings but he will probably be annoyed to get out then to a part time spinner. Moeen will need to settle in today as they really don't want to waste overs : should be able to cash in over the latter stages if they don't end up with the tail in too early...

And probably an important knock for Moeen from a personal viewpoint too ?

Happy for Brook but he is still very young and inexperienced. He will only get better with time and he certainly has all the shots to be a great player.

Hopefully Ali can put in a decent knock, plenty of overs left to do just that.

200 up now. Definitely a chance to push on from here to get close too or over 300.

Exactly why i never doubt Ali and did not understand why people were saying he could/should be dropped for his batting. The most underrated player England have.

An excellent 50 and putting the SA bowlers under pressure

Moeen really coming to the party this time...very rapid fifty and with ten overs left and 250 up , England will be looking for a very big score...these two both pretty good at accelerating.

Might need it , mind. Any early life disappeared long ago.

Seems to be a redemption tour with the bat as things are going.

About Moeen's third decent contribution with the bat in this format in the last 5-6 years, and his first fifty since 2017.

Fun watching Buttler bat against Parnell - it was taking him for 32 in an over in a T20 game that really announced him as a player in 2012 and here we are 11 years later!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP1JGB9MXR4&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE

Not sure how you can underrate an all rounder who averages 24 with the bat at 50+ with the ball. Whatever happened to the good old fashioned batting average > bowling average meant you were a proper all rounder!

All good things come to an end as Moeen drags one on...pretty handy knock though ! Have to agree we probably need to see more regular good scores from him ; but today he's done the job.

Now the all rounders need to help Jos to put the finishing touches...

A little surprised it is Woakes in before Curran, with 8 overs to go. Curran is the better hitter so would have liked to see him in at this point.

I don't usually watch the stats to be fair, prefer to use my own judgment and playing experience (in the way distant past) to form my opinion of a player.

Moeen Ali, to me, is one of the greatest players to ever play for England. He just seems to be one of those players who always seems to be 'playing for his spot' in the media and on forums. That is why I think he is the most underrated England player.

Maybe try get the best white ball bat of all time on strike at some point chaps

That extras column for SA is savage...

Moeen, for me, is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob. Had a good few years to kick off his international career, but since 2018 has been mostly terrible, save for the odd performance here and there.

SA pace men have been doing a good job of restraining England here...Buttler getting rather starved of strike...

But he's nailed a couple now ! Four and six to get things moving again. Ngidi under pressure now at 292/6

The Buttler early shuffle across before depositing over long on/mid wicket is iconic. Should probably have faced more than 10 balls in 8 overs.

Butler and now Curran hitting out, 23 off the over and the 300 is brought up.

23 off one over was a nice way to get the score moving again

The possible 350 just about back on the table now as Sam Curran seems to be getting into top gear so a big threat whoever is on strike...

Buttler needs 13 off the last for his 100. You’d have got long odds on that when he went to 50 in the 35th!

Butler's ton is now out the window. Still, a fantastic knock again from him

Breezy effort from Curran comes to an end but his partnership with Buttler has seen England to 330 plus...reckon it should be enough.

Buttler going to be left a bit short of his hundred but he will be happy to have helped his team to this total - especially after the way they folded up on Friday.

Only watched bits and pieces of England's knock as Mrs Bat commandeered the remote control for the tennis. 

Of what I saw in the opening and closing overs, Roy struggled from the outset looking ill at ease as if Friday's return to form hadn't happened. A handy 28 from Curran to help get England above par (I guess). Surprised he's behind Woakes in the order.

Also surprised that SA left out Magala. Together with England's incompetence, he turned things around in the first game and was rightly MotM.

Superb effort from England from the start they had. Brook looks a special talent and Buttler is Buttler. Very useful knock from Moeen too to keep the momentum going.

You would presume that should be comfortably enough - especially give it seems QDK is unlikely to bat?

342/7. That'll do.

Buttler has to settle for 94 and red ink...don't think he'll be too bothered though it would have been nice if he'd been able to get another ODI century.

Pitch looks very good for batting now so still need to do a job with the ball. Be another test for Stone ... And Topley back in the action.

Top effort. 181 from the final twenty, just a shame Buttler didn't get a deserved ton.

South Africa may also lose a point for their slow over rate - the innings took over four hours!

Duty281 wrote:Moeen, for me, is vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob. Had a good few years to kick off his international career, but since 2018 has been mostly terrible, save for the odd performance here and there.

Vastly overrated and a supreme hypejob? I am lost for words on this. Luckily the selectors see things vastly different than ye do Duty