[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

I think this will be it.

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 J.Hill - (Ribbans off the bench)
6 T.Hill
7 Earl
8 Billy V

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 OHC / Thorley / Murley
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence
14 Watson
15 Steward

Had to lock the previous thread guys, as it went past 20 pages. Carried over a lot of the posts from Sat on.

So difficult to call who will line up vs Scotland. Who is going to win the debates among the coaches. How much will Borthwick stick to a basic plan, or follow Jones. How much will he feel he needs to freshen things up so that the team feels like his? God knows. And that's before you start to think of the 4 or 5 players coming back from injury.

Geordie wrote:I think this will be it.

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 J.Hill - (Ribbans off the bench)
6 T.Hill
7 Earl
8 Billy V

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 OHC / Thorley / Murley
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence
14 Watson
15 Steward

That's decent but I'm definitely not a fan of Jonny Hill. Aside from his inability to curb idiotic penalties he's never been more than average for England.

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:I think this will be it.

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 J.Hill - (Ribbans off the bench)
6 T.Hill
7 Earl
8 Billy V

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 OHC / Thorley / Murley
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence
14 Watson
15 Steward

That's decent but I'm definitely not a fan of Jonny Hill. Aside from his inability to curb idiotic penalties he's never been more than average for England.

I agree, but i think he'll stick with a familiar lineup in the pack specifically as much as he can. Also...i believe it was SAM who said he got Wiese down to zero penalties...so he clearly knows how to fix those types of problems in a player.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:I think this will be it.

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 J.Hill - (Ribbans off the bench)
6 T.Hill
7 Earl
8 Billy V

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 OHC / Thorley / Murley
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence
14 Watson
15 Steward

That's decent but I'm definitely not a fan of Jonny Hill. Aside from his inability to curb idiotic penalties he's never been more than average for England.

I agree, but i think he'll stick with a familiar lineup in the pack specifically as much as he can. Also...i believe it was SAM who said he got Wiese down to zero penalties...so he clearly knows how to fix those types of problems in a player.

Well zero cards and barely any penalties for Weise. I think Hill might lose out as he's not quite mobile enough, Borthwick tended towards a very mobile pack at Tigers. Johnny Hill could get there I suppose.

Personally I'd start Ribbans as I think he's an easy step up on Hill at the minute.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:I think this will be it.

1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 J.Hill - (Ribbans off the bench)
6 T.Hill
7 Earl
8 Billy V

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 OHC / Thorley / Murley
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence
14 Watson
15 Steward

That's decent but I'm definitely not a fan of Jonny Hill. Aside from his inability to curb idiotic penalties he's never been more than average for England.

I agree, but i think he'll stick with a familiar lineup in the pack specifically as much as he can. Also...i believe it was SAM who said he got Wiese down to zero penalties...so he clearly knows how to fix those types of problems in a player.

Well zero cards and barely any penalties for Weise. I think Hill might lose out as he's not quite mobile enough, Borthwick tended towards a very mobile pack at Tigers. Johnny Hill could get there I suppose.

Personally I'd start Ribbans as I think he's an easy step up on Hill at the minute.

You can balance that out by having Dombrandt and Earl in there with him.

I caught the last two Sale games in full and Hill impressed me in both. I've been very critical of his inconsistency but his best for Chiefs and now Sale has been above the best club performances many of the other locks touted in my opinion. His Lions selection showed it's not like Jones is the only coach to rate him either. Getting picked up by Sale of a big wage is another example of that. Clearly a good few coaches are seeing something there.

That is something that happens a fair bit though. The jump to international rugby is so big that players struggle their and it's easy to get frustrated and presume that inexperienced players aren't good enough or experienced ones are done. Then those players drop back into club rugby and look far better than the alternatives after a run of games. Billy and Mako both did that with Sarries. Ford did it last season for Tigers. Cole arguably has done so for two seasons now. Daly has been absolutely terrific for a very dominant Sarries side this season. Hill's recent form at Sale feels similar.

Lock has been my biggest concern with England for a while now. Unsurprisingly it will also be the position where I'm most interested to see what Borthwick does with those available.

Rumours that Smith will return this weekend and Ford the weekend after so 10 should be in good shape for the Scotland match.

Farrell, despite a reputation largely built on blind dislike rather than fact, hasn't had a ban in two and half seasons. Plus this is only his third hearing in well over 300 Professional games. It was clearly a red card offence so the citing is of course correct but given there was mitigation in it I'd be very surprised if at most it isn't 6 week entry point, halved to three due to mitigation and record, then another week knocked off for attending the usual course. So 2 weeks on the naughty step if he cops a ban.

I'm actually optimistic about the back line. Watson back in good form, Farrell terrific at 10 for Sarries, all of Slade, Manu, Kelly and Lawrence fit. It's a shame both Arundell and Quirke are injured as I'd have them straight in a first choice 23. Overall I think the players are there and available for a strong back line though.

Quirke is due back next week, think they said in commentary.

It would be great if Quirke could put a run together as I think he's a step up on JVP.

I'd go with:

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Lawrence
14. Watson
15. Steward

21. Quirke
22. Slade
23. Arundell/Radwan

king_carlos wrote:I caught the last two Sale games in full and Hill impressed me in both. I've been very critical of his inconsistency but his best for Chiefs and now Sale has been above the best club performances many of the other locks touted in my opinion. His Lions selection showed it's not like Jones is the only coach to rate him either. Getting picked up by Sale of a big wage is another example of that. Clearly a good few coaches are seeing something there.

That is something that happens a fair bit though. The jump to international rugby is so big that players struggle their and it's easy to get frustrated and presume that inexperienced players aren't good enough or experienced ones are done. Then those players drop back into club rugby and look far better than the alternatives after a run of games. Billy and Mako both did that with Sarries. Ford did it last season for Tigers. Cole arguably has done so for two seasons now. Daly has been absolutely terrific for a very dominant Sarries side this season. Hill's recent form at Sale feels similar.

Lock has been my biggest concern with England for a while now. Unsurprisingly it will also be the position where I'm most interested to see what Borthwick does with those available.

One of the annoying things about Hill is that he had a brief spell when he finally looked like he was getting properly up to speed at international level, but then his performances went downhill. Maybe it was the EJ effect and he'll be better under Borthwick?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It would be great if Quirke could put a run together as I think he's a step up on JVP.

I'd go with:

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Lawrence
14. Watson
15. Steward

21. Quirke
22. Slade
23. Arundell/Radwan

Kelly and van Poortvliet to start. Hoping this is the time Youngs is once and for all dropped out of sight.

lostinwales wrote:One of the annoying things about Hill is that he had a brief spell when he finally looked like he was getting properly up to speed at international level, but then his performances went downhill. Maybe it was the EJ effect and he'll be better under Borthwick?

The new attacking structure not clicking clearly affected the whole group. It led to unforced errors which put them under consistent pressure and that showed in indiscipline from many. Especially for the forwards though.

I strongly believe we will see that fluid structure copied by a different side with better suited personnel and prove very effective. It was an interesting idea that EJ tried to implement without the necessary players available IMO.

With a tighter structure (likely a 1-3-3-1 in the forwards) we should naturally see a lower error count which makes discipline far easier.

We will likely see a similar kick chase strategy to Tigers where they kick long looking to target the phase after the kick rather than challenging in the air or on the floor at the first breakdown. This is lower risk than competing in the air or at the ruck. Instead targeting the next phase with line speed looking to knock them back as the opposition reorganise. It's not as flashy as winning the aerial battle or a ruck turnover but can be very effective.

Basically Borthwick favours a pragmatic game plan that naturally reduces errors. That in turn should lead to less of the indiscipline that unforced errors are usually followed by.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It would be great if Quirke could put a run together as I think he's a step up on JVP.

I'd go with:

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Lawrence
14. Watson
15. Steward

21. Quirke
22. Slade
23. Arundell/Radwan

JVP is currently streets ahead of Youngs on form. I'd certainly have him starting over Quirke as well given Quirke's lack of game time. Unsure on Quirke's ability levels at this point, he just has no luck whatsoever with injuries. He's got bags of potential but did play second fiddle to JVP at under 20 level and just needs to play a good run of games.

True. Quirke wasn't even able to get a single u20 cap. Not entirely sure that's down to him being below the standard though!

king_carlos wrote:Rumours that Smith will return this weekend and Ford the weekend after so 10 should be in good shape for the Scotland match.

More than a rumour. Tabai Matson said in so many words that Smith was back doing tackle training and the plan was for him to return for the next round of European matches.

No 7&1/2 wrote:True. Quirke wasn't even able to get a single u20 cap. Not entirely sure that's down to him being below the standard though!

The guy has got bags of ability, potential as well. Hard to know just how good he is until he has a longer run in the Sale side though.

I'm sure he was on the bench for at least one 6N under 20s side. Was either not fully fit or didn't get on with the coaches because he must not have got on.

A combination of Quirke and JVP would be the ideal. Not sure which would start and which would bench, they've both got pretty good all round games.

JvP's poor recent performances at Int level put's him behind Youngs for me. I'd be tempted to get Mitchell in as the bench option if Quirke is injured tbh.

Performances or performance? You're basing both your points against him and Kelly on one off games. Everyone has that poor performance in the locker though. Youngs has about 20.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:True. Quirke wasn't even able to get a single u20 cap. Not entirely sure that's down to him being below the standard though!

The guy has got bags of ability, potential as well. Hard to know just how good he is until he has a longer run in the Sale side though.

I'm sure he was on the bench for at least one 6N under 20s side. Was either not fully fit or didn't get on with the coaches because he must not have got on.

A combination of Quirke and JVP would be the ideal. Not sure which would start and which would bench, they've both got pretty good all round games.

Them 2 and Mitchell as back up and we're in a very good place.

According to the Telegraph Tom Willis is in line to be picked in the squad. Bit non-plussed by that if he's being chosen above Mercer. If he's the holding position behind Dombrandt and Zac ok, though I don't see anything that special about him.

I think he's decent and glad to see him involved. He was superb for Wasps last season. Would personally prefer him to someone like Simmonds

Simmonds is still down my list. You could see him being phased out by Wasps anyway when his brother, Shields and Barbeary were all fit. He's got the look of a good number 8 but, yeah, just looks a bit average to me.

For me Willis gives you a decent all round game and is an 8 who does well in the tight getting over the gainline. He beat more defenders than anyone else in the league last season (83). Jasper Wiese was second on 76, despite having played more minutes. B Vunipola is down on 65, despite having significantly more gametime.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:JvP's poor recent performances at Int level put's him behind Youngs for me. I'd be tempted to get Mitchell in as the bench option if Quirke is injured tbh.

Bar the NZ game when has he been poor?

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the Telegraph Tom Willis is in line to be picked in the squad. Bit non-plussed by that if he's being chosen above Mercer. If he's the holding position behind Dombrandt and Zac ok, though I don't see anything that special about him.

I think Tom Willis is sort of the middle ground between the all day hard carrying attritional Billy V and the more dynamic carrying of Dombrandt and Mercer. His work rate is pretty high as well so perhaps when Borthwick's done his analysis Tom Willis is ticking more boxes. It'll be interesting to see which other backrows also get selected.

Tom Willis is a very good physical alround number 8. Would have no problem with him in the squad.

If its true he is in line to be called up...maybe we should expect a few selections we didnt see / expect.

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the Telegraph Tom Willis is in line to be picked in the squad. Bit non-plussed by that if he's being chosen above Mercer. If he's the holding position behind Dombrandt and Zac ok, though I don't see anything that special about him.

Tom Willis is a special case, which might not say anything about likely selection. As he's in France, England have to notify his team if there's a chance he'll be called up. Usually, England don't notify anyone, as overseas players are not considered, so we have no past examples to go from regarding when teams get notified, and then players aren't subsequently called up. Perhaps Borthwick does like him, or maybe it's just a formality to keep the option open.

The BBC podcast team thinks Dombrandt may be better positioned for selection now with Nick Evans in the coaching mix.

I might have missed it, when is the squad being announced? Do we know if there are any restrictions on the squad selection (funny EPS rules) etc.
I am sure I heard on one of the podcasts the number of 5 changes being allowed - but feel that with a new coach and new set-up that a completely new squad should be allowed.

For me, its the first time in a while I am genuinely looking forward to seeing the direction that Borthwick wants to take this England side, and his first squad will really give us some insights (although not if he has to stick mostly with Eddies squad)

propdavid_london wrote:I might have missed it, when is the squad being announced? Do we know if there are any restrictions on the squad selection (funny EPS rules) etc.
I am sure I heard on one of the podcasts the number of 5 changes being allowed - but feel that with a new coach and new set-up that a completely new squad should be allowed.  

For me, its the first time in a while I am genuinely looking forward to seeing the direction that Borthwick wants to take this England side, and his first squad will really give us some insights (although not if he has to stick mostly with Eddies squad)

16th I think. For the Elite player squad you're normally allowed 5 changes, though when managers swap over I think in the past the clubs and the RFU have negotiated for more. Obviously the France based selections won't come into that anyway as their clubs are not part of the agreement.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the Telegraph Tom Willis is in line to be picked in the squad. Bit non-plussed by that if he's being chosen above Mercer. If he's the holding position behind Dombrandt and Zac ok, though I don't see anything that special about him.

I think Tom Willis is sort of the middle ground between the all day hard carrying attritional Billy V and the more dynamic carrying of Dombrandt and Mercer. His work rate is pretty high as well so perhaps when Borthwick's done his analysis Tom Willis is ticking more boxes. It'll be interesting to see which other backrows also get selected.

Yeah, just hope it's not all by numbers or we will have a team of water carriers with little sparkle.

I'm really hoping Dombrandt gets a proper run and that with Evans as attack coach England can make the use of his potential. He's really upped his work rate and breakdown work (in the Saints game he'd done something like 19 tackles in the 55 minutes before his YC), and when he's running smart lines rather than just smashing it up, he offers something very different in attack.

Found a couple of bits quite interesting in this Guardian article. The first is the quotes (prior to this) ' If you are constantly being passive you probably won’t get picked next week.' That goes that with a lot of coaches and players not talking about tackles, but 'hits'. To me this is a big part of the problem, we can all complain about players being brain dead etc but there is clearly a big part of the rugby fraternity who see dominance as a key part of tackling. The other side of that coin is the quotes from Sinfield: '“I agree [with high tackles resulting in red cards] – quite rightly they are,” Sinfield said.

“Tackle height is something we worked on for a long long time at Leicester (where he and Borthwick previously coached).

“There is mitigation in some of these but ask anybody who worked with me at Leicester and they will understand that they’ve been coached to tackle low.

“The sooner we can educate, develop and work with younger players on tackle height, it makes the game safer for everybody. My first role as a coach is to provide as safe an environment as I can. That includes how we practise tackling.

“Everything is a balance. You run the risk if you tackle high of getting it wrong. I’d much rather we tackle low rather than a) somebody getting hurt or b) us losing somebody.”'

That rings true from what the Leicester fans have said in relation to their discipline, which is welcome for England but also what the head high tackle rules were supposed to be about. Good that we've got one of the coaches who realises that.


'he post-match summary was informed and thoughtful. “It’s a very fine line and I don’t think people quite understand when it gets slowed down on TV how quick those decisions are. You can slow loads of contact down and find something. When there’s a bigger collision people look at it more. Hopefully it goes in the right direction, the game is safe, and there’s some common sense, too.”

The speaker? Owen Farrell after the feisty Premiership semi-final between Saracens and Harlequins last season. The game in question had four players sent to the sin-bin including the Quins hooker Jack Walker, for a high tackle on Farrell. The England captain, though, was keen to emphasise that top-level rugby has to be an all-or-nothing environment. “We know what we can and can’t do, but you still have to have enough intent to go forward in your defence. If you are constantly being passive you probably won’t get picked next week.”

Fast forward to Friday night in Gloucester. The game is entering its closing stages and the score is 16-16. Gloucester’s Jack Clement picks up the ball from the base and heads straight at the nearest Saracens defender, who happens to be Farrell. The fly-half braces himself for the collision and his right shoulder ends up crunching into Clement’s chin. On BT Sport the commentators are agreed: it is direct contact with the head and, therefore, technically a red card.

No card of any colour ends up being shown because there is a misunderstanding between the referee, Karl Dickson, and his television match official, Claire Hodnett. Dickson mistakenly believes the incident happened in an earlier passage of play and cannot be re-examined. Farrell stays on and – hey presto! – drops the winning goal to win Saracens the game. Had he not been on the field it might have been a different outcome.

Cue a predictable social media hurricane, with the Six Nations due to kick off on 4 February. Farrell has already had a couple of high-profile bans for high tackles, the last of them in September 2020 when he caught the young Wasp Charlie Atkinson with a nasty high hit that earned him a 10-week suspension, subsequently halved to five weeks following glowing testimonials provided by Mark McCall, Eddie Jones and the founders of a charity with whom Farrell is associated.

All of which drags us back into the heart of the moral maze in which rugby is ensnared. It should go without saying that everyone wants a safer game at a time when player welfare is right under the spotlight. But – and sadly there remains a “but” – rugby continues to be ruinously undermined by the game’s inability to differentiate between serious foul play and a split-second misjudged challenge, made to look worse by technology, big-screen replays and hot takes on Twitter.


At full speed – and at first glance – Farrell’s offence could simply be classed as a fly-half bravely looking to stand firm as a bigger forward charges low at him. Go too much lower and, with only a full frontal target to hit, he risks getting crunched by a knee or hip bone. Yes, we have seen that no-nonsense leading shoulder of Farrell’s before. But take away the identity of the players concerned, the match situation, the television cameras and the endless slow-motion replays and what do we have? Dickson, had he spotted it in real time, would probably have opted for a yellow card and a Gloucester penalty.

Owen Farrell’s dangerous tackle on Wasps’ Charlie Atkinson in 2020
Owen Farrell received a red card for a dangerous tackle on Wasps’ Charlie Atkinson in 2020. Photograph: Shutterstock
Even the absurdly fine line players are expected to walk, however, is less frustrating to many than the inconsistent length of bans dished out to those deemed guilty. Without prejudging Farrell’s hearing, another player committing a similar offence might expect a six-week ban for a mid-range entry point, commuted to three weeks if he has a reasonably clean record and trimmed by a further week if he attends “tackle school”, the unofficial name given to the coaching programme which World Rugby now offers to offenders. Reoffending rates are said to be encouraging, with only eight of the first 100 players who have been through their programme having subsequently been shown another red card.

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Which sounds plausible until a 31-year-old, 100-cap international with a history of upright challenges comes up before the beak. How realistic it is to send an old dog to “tackle school” and expect him to learn instant new tricks? Just 28 months after the Atkinson collision – added to a previous two-week ban for poleaxing Wasps’ Dan Robson in 2016 – a spotless record is not involved in Farrell’s case, either. Would a Polynesian loose forward expect to have a ban halved in similar circumstances?

Imagine, furthermore, if a three-week ban does ensue. Saracens will point to their home game against Bristol on 28 January as the “week three” fixture. Except that England – and Farrell – will be in national camp then, with nil chance of the player being involved the weekend before England face Scotland at Twickenham. Clear as mud? If rugby’s disciplinary laws are so blurred and labyrinthine that few can agree either on the crime or the punishment, maybe the high-profile Farrell is not the real villain here.'

I think Farrell is a ticking time bomb when it comes to tackling. He's no stranger to "lucky" decisions (the tackle on Esterhuizen in the 1 point victory over South Africa a few years ago is a case in point) and has had his fair share of mitigation before.

Leadership aside (and he is good in this aspect), would it be a terrible thing if fly half duties were left to Smith or Ford?

Like Wales with AWJ, maybe we should try playing without a "talisman" for a bit. It might not do us any harm.

Mr Bounce wrote:I think Farrell is a ticking time bomb when it comes to tackling. He's no stranger to "lucky" decisions (the tackle on Esterhuizen in the 1 point victory over South Africa a few years ago is a case in point) and has had his fair share of mitigation before.

Leadership aside (and he is good in this aspect), would it be a terrible thing if fly half duties were left to Smith or Ford?

Like Wales with AWJ, maybe we should try playing without a "talisman" for a bit. It might not do us any harm.

I think he did wrap on that. Less clear cut on the Australia 1 a week later. I still consider SA luckier in that after Snyman's shoulder to Kruis' head earlier in the match. Depending on how the latter 2 come through the next couple of weeks, Smith would certainly be my choice to start.

Does reinforce (albeit slightly different laws back then) that players are encouraged by a majority of coaches to make an impact and push the line.

Farrell has and had issues with his tackle technique. He will likely get a ban for latest, just depends upon length. If Smith is fit as rumoured then no probs and at least then we don't get Farrell at 12.
So, could be a "good" thing almost although never want a player banned of course.

Whether you say it's a definite red or should be yellow etc there is no excuse these days. Go high and risk a red/ban. Simple really.

king_carlos wrote:

Farrell, despite a reputation largely built on blind dislike rather than fact, hasn't had a ban in two and half seasons. Plus this is only his third hearing in well over 300 Professional games. It was clearly a red card offence so the citing is of course correct but given there was mitigation in it I'd be very surprised if at most it isn't 6 week entry point, halved to three due to mitigation and record, then another week knocked off for attending the usual course. So 2 weeks on the naughty step if he cops a ban.

I actually did not think it was that bad myself. Watching it in real time it did look as if he was trying to wrap his arms. The still photos make it look so much worse than it actually was for me. Maybe a YC. I am not convinced about the citing to be honest and think he will walk away fairly handy.

LCD missing at least the start of the 6Ns.

King Carlos - you may have a point but have a look on youtube for "shoulder boy" He has got away with horrendous tackles far too often. Sure he has not had many cards for it but by 'eck he should have done

https://youtu.be/Ofk5lGXMSR0
This? Some of these are comical if the original poster thinks they were fouls! Love the great dump tackle put in there.

And Tom Willis is coming back to England with Saracens apparently.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Tom Willis is coming back to England with Saracens apparently.

Well thats a great move for Tom....will help his development massively.

Presume it means Vunipola is off somewhere.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Tom Willis is coming back to England with Saracens apparently.

Under the salary cap??????

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Tom Willis is coming back to England with Saracens apparently.

Under the salary cap??????

Cough.

David Duckham has died.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Tom Willis is coming back to England with Saracens apparently.

Under the salary cap??????

With wages coming down massively I don't think Willis would cost a huge amount to be honest. Barely any clubs have space with the reduced cap and those that do can't afford to spend to it anyway. That means big reduction in pay demands if players want to be in England, available for the selection, the match fees.

Ulster were interested due to being eligible for Ireland but already have Vermuelen at 8 so that wont have been a huge offer I presume.

A few years ago good Prem level players were getting unsustainable wages. Now that will be the reserve of gun internationals, key positions (basically fly-half thinking about big earners) and the odd overseas player just below gun international that fits what a club needs perfectly - Estherhuizen at Quins and Wiese at Tigers spring to mind.

I think Jackson Wray and Andy Christie are both out of contract at the end of the season. If either move on then their wage should pretty much cover Willis in the current market.

No 7&1/2 wrote:David Duckham has died.

I remember watching him play. I think the first Calcutta match I ever went to.

No 7&1/2 wrote:David Duckham has died.

Yet another player unavailable to Borthwick, then. :-(