England Under 20s squad

Forwards
Archie McArthur (Gloucester)
George Patten (Northampton Saints)
Calum Scott (London Irish)
Finn Theobald-Thomas (Gloucester)
Nathan Jibulu (Harlequins)
Afolabi Fasogbon (London Irish)
James Halliwell (Bristol Bears)
Tim Hoyt (Leicester Tigers)
Harry Browne (Harlequins)
Lewis Chessum (Leicester Tigers)
Danny Eite (Gloucester)
Robert Carmichael (Leicester Tigers)
Finn Carnduff (Leicester Tigers)
Joshua Manz (Leicester Tigers)
Guy Pepper (Newcastle Falcons)
Josh Dingley (Bath Rugby)
Chandler Cunningham-South (London Irish)
Greg Fisilau (Exeter Chiefs)

Backs
Charlie Bracken (Saracens)
Nye Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Sam Harris (Bath Rugby)
Sam Worsley (Bristol Bears)
Cassius Cleaves (Harlequins)
Joseph Woodward (Leicester Tigers)
Rekeiti Ma'asi-White (Sale Sharks)
Benjamin Waghorn (Harlequins)
Jacob Cusick (Leicester Tigers)
Joe Jenkins (Bristol Bears)
Josh Hathaway (Gloucester)
Tobias Elliott (Saracens)
Connor Slevin (Harlequins)
Louie Johnson (Newcastle Falcons)

Some interesting players here, dual qualified Hathaway swapping nations. A couple of simply mahoosive 20 stone tightheads in Hoyt and Fasogbon. The backrow of Cunningham-South, Pepper and Fisilau would be exceptional at this level if they are actually available. Nye Thomas a very explosive scrum half to add spice in a position we looked weak in during the junior world cup. Lewis Chessum a man not known for being short has brought his taller pal Rob Carmichael into camp with him. The bloke is a mere 6ft11. If the hookers can't successfully throw the ball to those two then they should really consider other positions or forms of employment.

3 backs who could be running out for Wales one day .

You have an admirable belief in recycling other people's cast offs

lostinwales wrote:You have an admirable belief in recycling other people's cast offs

Would you say that to Lesley Vainikolo's face? No I thought not.

mikey_dragon wrote:3 backs who could be running out for Wales one day .

Give it time in sure the WRU family tree team will manage to find a few more in the squad that have enough of a connection to target.

I didnt realise Cunningham South was u20 level.

So a 6'11 and 6'9/10 lock pairing. Which is the tight head lock and which is the LH.

Yeah, Cunningham-South isn't actually 20 until mid March.

Despite having fewer big names than some seasons, it looks a really decent group. Especially up front. It'll be interesting to see how they get on against the likes of France and Ireland.

I don't know most of the Quins contingent that well, but Cleaves and Slevin have both played for the seniors and are seriously quick.

Geordie wrote:I didnt realise Cunningham South was u20 level.

So a 6'11 and 6'9/10 lock pairing. Which is the tight head lock and which is the LH.

Hoyt and Fasogbon are both tightheads. Patten and McArthur both looseheads. Unless I've missed something it's a bit odd we've only got four in there but what looks like four locks and three hookers.

I'm guessing that's seen as the core EPS and there are other props involved to allow them some flexibility as there may have been some tight calls in that position.

I know for example from the club news item there are a couple more LI lads in Bradbury (FH) and Walsh (13/wing) training with the squad and due to be involved in the warm up fixture against Oxford Uni this weekend. Sure the same will be true of other clubs.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:I didnt realise Cunningham South was u20 level.

So a 6'11 and 6'9/10 lock pairing. Which is the tight head lock and which is the LH.

Hoyt and Fasogbon are both tightheads. Patten and McArthur both looseheads. Unless I've missed something it's a bit odd we've only got four in there but what looks like four locks and three hookers.

Lol, Sam i meant which side do the two tall locks play. Are they tight head locks or loosehead side?

Geordie wrote:I didnt realise Cunningham South was u20 level.

So a 6'11 and 6'9/10 lock pairing. Which is the tight head lock and which is the LH.

You saying CS still needs to fill out?

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:I didnt realise Cunningham South was u20 level.

So a 6'11 and 6'9/10 lock pairing. Which is the tight head lock and which is the LH.

Hoyt and Fasogbon are both tightheads. Patten and McArthur both looseheads. Unless I've missed something it's a bit odd we've only got four in there but what looks like four locks and three hookers.

Lol, Sam i meant which side do the two tall locks play. Are they tight head locks or loosehead side?

No idea to be honest. Carmichael made his sole appearance on the PRC alongside Chessum iirc or was it Manz. Don't know, might scupper the idea of them playing together. Carmichael is only 19 so would have another year left at this level so there might be a different lock pairing.

Unless Carmichael turned 19 in the last 12 days, this will be his only year at U20s. Can't find a date of birth for him.

Crazy tall kid though

lostinwales wrote:

Geordie wrote:I didnt realise Cunningham South was u20 level.

So a 6'11 and 6'9/10 lock pairing. Which is the tight head lock and which is the LH.

You saying CS  still needs to fill out?

No more that from the brief games ive seen him in he looks very mature in his play...and also looks utterly relaxed and fearless.

Geordie wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Geordie wrote:I didnt realise Cunningham South was u20 level.

So a 6'11 and 6'9/10 lock pairing. Which is the tight head lock and which is the LH.

You saying CS  still needs to fill out?

No more that from the brief games ive seen him in he looks very mature in his play...and also looks utterly relaxed and fearless.

I only really saw him at u20 last year when he looked raw but very powerful. Could be an interesting player to watch on the future.

i cant remember which game i watched but he came on as a sub for irish and i can remember thinkin wow hes actually winding up the opponents and he just doesnt give a jot about reputation. it was quite refreshing...
Damn who was it against.

Geordie wrote:i cant remember which game i watched but he came on as a sub for irish and i can remember thinkin wow hes actually winding up the opponents and he just doesnt give a jot about reputation. it was quite refreshing...
Damn who was it against.

Probably when he came on against the Stormers. Had a big impact off the bench and was right in their face. He's looked great every time he's come off the bench to be fair. I'd be starting him now at 8 if I were Kidney.

He's got a high ceiling. If he can keep developing his all round skills, he could be a real player with the attitude and physicality he has. The skill piece would be key though if he were to play 8 at a high level, which is where I'd really like to see him

Different teams for each half for the under 20s friendly Vs Oxford.

First half
1. Archie McArthur

2. Finn Theobald Thomas/Calum Scott

3. Tim Hoyt/James Halliwell

4. Harry Browne

5. Lewis Chessum (c)

6. Joshua Manz

7. Josh Dingley

8. Rob Nixon

9. Charlie Bracken

10. Sam Harris

11. Josh Hathaway

12. Joseph Woodward

13. Jacob Cusick

14. Cassius Cleaves

15. Connor Slevin

Second half
1. George Patten

2. Calum Scott/Nathan Jibulu

3. James Halliwell/Afolabi Fasogbon

4. Danny Eite

5. Robert Carmichael

6. Finn Carnduff

7. Tristan Woodman

8. Zach Carr

9. Nye Thomas

10. Monty Bradbury

11. Jack Walsh

12. Rekeiti Ma'asi-White (c)

13. Louie Johnson

14. Benjamin Waghorn

15. Tobias Elliot

I see CS is listed as a Kiwi. I am assuming he has some English ancestry

lostinwales wrote:I see CS is listed as a Kiwi. I am assuming he has some English ancestry

I think (don’t shoot me if I’m wrong) I heard a commentator say that he was born in Kent, but moved to NZ at a young age.

England team to play Scotland. I believe Lewis Chessum is captaining. BIG backrow but lacking a natural openside.

ENGLAND U20 TEAM
1. Archie McArthur
2. Finn Theobald-Thomas
3. Tim Hoyt
4. Danny Eite
5. Lewis Chessum
6. Finn Carnduff
7. Greg Fisilau
8. Chandler Cunningham-South
9. Charlie Bracken
10. Monty Bradbury
11. Josh Hathaway
12. Joseph Woodward
13. Rekeiti Ma'asi-White
14. Tobias Elliott
15. Sam Harris

Replacements

16. Calum Scott
17. Asher Opoku-Fordjour
18. Afolabi Fasogbon
19. Robert Carmichael
20. Tristan Woodman
21. Nye Thomas
22. Louie Johnson
23. Toby Cousins

That pack and replacement forwards are almost sarcastically big, in ways more of the 'white orc' stereotype than many of the earlier English teams, who were unfairly labelled with it.
I've been pleased to see Chandler C-Ss progression. I watched him at this level last year and was a bit dubious, I think (without exaggeration) he dropped the ball about six or seven times across a couple of matches, proper breezeblock hands. Maybe it was stage fright (he was young an inexperienced), because he seems to have taken to senior rugby like a duck to water.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Tim Hoyte goes, he looks like a wrecking ball.

I’m a little worried about the lack of fetcher too, I would like to have seen what Guy Pepper could have done behind that front five.

I'm slightly less enthused about the backs. I'll be interested to see Bracken plays, but more out on nostalgia really!

I’ve read others being impressed with Woodward, but I haven’t really seen him play. What sort of centre is he? A second player maker? His stats would suggest that, as opposed to being a bosher.

Ma'asi-White was another one whose handling skill seemed fairly duff last year, hopefully he’ll also have improved in this area.

We’ve been spoiled for choice with back three players recently, but none of the starters ring a bell. Obviously Hathaway will end up switching back to Wales at some point…

CCS has had a rather big development surge hasn't he. Looked a fairly average lock/6 hybrid last season but is now steaming ahead as an athletic and powerful 8. Really good to see.

Woodward is a clever 12. Good skills, seems to have time on the ball and cuts nice lines. He should have another year at this level as well. He's been playing for Tigers in the PRC this season having made his debut there last season. Played some flyhalf occasionally at academy level but seems focused on 12 now.

Sam Harris the Bath lad at the back looked to have a good mix of size and skill in the summer. I think he's a utility back as he's got enough of everything to play around the backline but England seem to like him at 15, not sure where he's popped up for Bath.

Hoyt is a big unit. Tigers have farmed him out on loan wherever they can to try and get him as much senior game time as possible. Obviously tough to get clubs interested in a 19 year old tighthead who's in need of game time to get experience. Looking forward to seeing where he is in terms of development. The replacement tighthead is possibly even bigger and LI seem to rate him.

Cunningham-South, are we just gifting him U20s experience over England qualified players though? Can't see anywhere that says he has any ancestry so just trying to give him the good life and hope he sticks around for what, another 3 and a half years?

I’m sure the Welsh will be digging through his granny’s holiday snaps as we speak just in case

And so they should, England are so far behind in that, finally seem to have realised they need to cap Fin Smith earlier or risk losing him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Cunningham-South, are we just gifting him U20s experience over England qualified players though? Can't see anywhere that says he has any ancestry so just trying to give him the good life and hope he sticks around for what, another 3 and a half years?

I'm pretty sure I head a commentator say the other week that he was born in in England but moved to New Zealand at a young age. I don't think he needs to qualify via residency.

Ta, sorry didn't see initially that was already asked and answered above. Slightly worrying that it isn't on the internet by now given the Schickerling near miss. I know there's slightly different rules for U20s ie Dombrandt playing for Wales etc.

Cunningham-South came to England and was straight into the England under 20s. Sounds very much like the RFU were well aware of him when LI brought him over.

Greg Fisilau was very well thought of at Wasps & was great at Ampthill when loaned out.
He is one of 3 ex Wasps Academy lads snapped up by Exeter.
A big mobile player normally an 8.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Greg Fisilau was very well thought of at Wasps & was great at Ampthill when loaned out.
He is one of 3 ex Wasps Academy lads snapped up by Exeter.
A big mobile player normally an 8.

He's the shortest and possibly the lightest in the backrow, not really that big though he'll fill out a bit. He's looked half decent for Chiefs already. Explosive and big work rate.

Not a surprise Chiefs picked up the three former Wasps they did. Another young age grade lock, a mobile and explosive 8 and then a winger with exceptional potential. All very much in the Chiefs wheelhouse.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ta, sorry didn't see initially that was already asked and answered above. Slightly worrying that it isn't on the internet by now given the Schickerling near miss. I know there's slightly different rules for U20s ie Dombrandt playing for Wales etc.

Yeah, you’re welcome.

As a Sale fan it is disappointing to see how little representation we have at this level.  This doesn't bode well for the future - looks like we will continue stacking the squad with bargain price Springboks and players surplus to requirement from other teams.  With no other premiership team within 110 miles and a huge union and league player pool to pick from, Sale should be well represented.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ta, sorry didn't see initially that was already asked and answered above. Slightly worrying that it isn't on the internet by now given the Schickerling near miss. I know there's slightly different rules for U20s ie Dombrandt playing for Wales etc.

Yeah, you’re welcome.

Could you imagine if we'd cheated like Wales and it was treated as no big deal, like when Wales cheated. It would have been terrible.

It was truly a terrible ordeal, that’s behind us. Wasn’t it even before 2003

Sharkey06 wrote:As a Sale fan it is disappointing to see how little representation we have at this level.  This doesn't bode well for the future - looks like we will continue stacking the squad with bargain price Springboks and players surplus to requirement from other teams.  With no other premiership team within 110 miles and a huge union and league player pool to pick from, Sale should be well represented.

Dan Kelly and Nic Dolly were unwanted players a couple of seasons ago. There's bargains to be found sometimes, you may have managed that with Bamber and Groves time will tell. It's also not an impossibility that players can slip past England under 20 representation. Raffi Quirke either didn't or barely played under 20 level and your young tighthead Harper didn't either.

Not always a big problem when it's not a bumper year. Sale don't normally struggle to find homegrown players.

Does anyone know if the match is being televised? It is a great pity if not or not readily assessable.

It is on the iplayer

For anybody struggling to find the match, I've got the link below. Can't find it anywhere on the iPlayer App.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/rugby-union/62996227

Never mind, on the app now.

Well walked the dog abd missed 3 tries.

Going to be a tough night for the young Scots, they can't really live with the physicality now and they are only going to get more tired.

The defence from England is a bit patchy though. They really just walked through for that second one. No idea what Fisalu is doing there in defence but he's also quite isolated. Some of guard defence has been iffy as well.

England dominant when they've got the ball and at the scrum though the backs also look quite well balanced as well with the 10/12 switching nicely.

Good play from England, deserved a try.

You're right about the defence, has been a bit lazy/ complacent.

Fun to watch though

There's just no line speed and then no real momentum to take into the tackle so everything's passive.

Pretty sure that should have been a penalty restart to England, all the Scottish subs ran in from behind the English players to celebrate the try. If you're not in the game you shouldn't be on the pitch.

England haven't come out of the changing room, need to wake up because they are just setting targets for the Scots at the moment.

You gotta say though, Scotland are playing really well!

BigGee wrote:You gotta say though, Scotland are playing really well!

They are playing like a team which England are not.