Political round up.............

by **superflyweight** Tue Oct 25, 2022 3:06 am

First topic message reminder :

Duty281 wrote:Sunak speaks for a grand total of 84 seconds and then scuttles away to get his orders.

Crackpot.

by **Pr4wn** Wed Aug 09, 2023 8:20 am

It's all pretty desperate from the Tories, to be honest. They know their goose is cooked and they're just trying to cynically create as much division as possible before the axe falls.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Aug 09, 2023 9:07 pm

All they've got left now is to blame Labour, 'lefty lawyers' and 'the wokerati' for everything. It's really quite pathetic, but what positives can they point to after 13 years in power?

by **navyblueshorts** Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:30 am

Samo wrote:Downing Street backs Lee Andersons "They can Frak off back to France" comments.

Quelle Frak surprise. The state of the modern Conservative party.

While I wouldn't condone the language used by Anderson, I'm afraid I more or less agree w/ his sentiment I'm afraid.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:35 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:All they've got left now is to blame Labour, 'lefty lawyers' and 'the wokerati' for everything. It's really quite pathetic, but what positives can they point to after 13 years in power?

Well, Labour better get their act together, because very soon now, they aren't going to be able to blame the Tories. Lest we forget, it was Labour who handed the financial crash to the Tories, so I find all this "13 years of Tory failure" etc a bit nauseating to be honest. In addition, why have they been able to hold power for ~13 years?? Would have been nice if we'd had anything approximating a decent opposition; basically, the Tories are self-destructing and little to do w/ Labour or their policies etc. Yes, the Tories are a mess, but let's not pretend that everything is their fault.

Truth be told, Britain is now in the traditional post-Empire death spiral, but we don't appear to want to acknowledge it yet and none of the political parties want to have a grown up discussion about what we want, what it'll cost and how it should be financed.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Aug 10, 2023 2:55 am

Thanks Navy - I'll just note that you didn't answer my question... Wink

I do wish that Labour were a bit bolder in what they're doing / offering - it's certainly hard to be enthusiastic about them; but it's clear that they've calculated that with the Tories where they are, then 'steady as she goes' and not scaring the horses will probably win them the next general election, and it's hard to argue with that as a strategy.

by **Pal Joey** Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:28 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Thanks Navy - I'll just note that you didn't answer my question...

I do wish that Labour were a bit bolder in what they're doing / offering - it's certainly hard to be enthusiastic about them; but it's clear that they've calculated that with the Tories where they are, then 'steady as she goes' and not scaring the horses will probably win them the next general election, and it's hard to argue with that as a strategy.

Australia is 15 months into that new political cycle, Lucky, after electing a low-target, steady as she goes, say little (and now do even less) ALP government after 9 years of a coalition LNP government, which slowly and agonisingly broke into many small pieces due to a myriad of self-inflicted scandals (policies, people, rorts, corruption - you name it) and yet still had a larger primary vote compared to the Labor party. Note, the 'u' was dropped from Labour in 1911.

I came to the conclusion, a long time ago, that both major parties are essentially different sides of the same coin, both cut from the same cloth... or forged from the same mineral in this case. Oppositions can say whatever they want and promise progressive changes to end the endless cycle of stuff-ups, close the gaps in inequality, deliver better solutions to economic and social outcomes, etc., but in the end they are all beholden to those with the money and power who run the whole show. So they'll tell the electorate one thing but once in office it's the same old thing just with new faces. I believe we've reached a stage where there are fewer drastic political and economic reforms happening since we've backed ourselves (politicians included) into a corner. There may be one or two slightly different angles of approach or policy direction but that's simply to do with the means by which they are striving to meet similar ends.

Here, we have an added 'distraction' with The Voice. One of the first things mentioned in the new PM's acceptance speech was that he'd "implement The Uluru Statement in full" by altering the constitution to include First Nations recognition. Over 90% of us have no problem with recognition (legislated as required in whatever region) but the whole Voice thing under the Uluru Statement has been so poorly explained and the PM has again tried to say little about the details of exactly what this would involve. We all know the greater agenda: Voice, Treaty and Truth (Telling) and then most certainly the claims for reparations, "paying the rent" and requiring everything currently under executive government (ministerial, rule of law, foreign policy, administrative and financial/economic functions) all could be required to have this 3rd Chamber of Government advising, vetting, debating anything which 'directly affects FN people' as well as the rest of us. One can imagine the extra time and cost involved as the High Court (Fed) and Supreme Courts (States) get involved in inevitable determinations sought about land, property, rights and how this would add even more complexity to the already busy system.

Imagine if the same thing happened in the UK? You'd have those claiming to be direct descendants of the Iceni, Dobunni, Atrebates, Ordovices, Durotriges, Picts, Scots, Angles, etc all claiming compensation and reparations for land stolen from them by the Romans, Vikings, Anglo Saxons, Normans, etc. Then they'd also have a direct line to Parliament to voice any concern about anything affecting their lives.

Excuse me for oversimplifying things but what happened a long time ago cannot be undone by adding a line into the constitution in 2023 and then saying 'let's get this wording of the Voice in there first and then we can discuss the finer details of exactly how we go about the process of dealing with our grievances and claims for compensation and reparations; once the power of the Voice is there.'

I've digressed a bit so to summarise: this whole voice referendum (we still don't know the actual date, some say October 14) has provided a smokescreen for the Government here whilst they quietly announced an increase in immigration (1.5 million over 2 years), 82% renewables by 2030 with no back up power supply alternatives (they're closing some huge coal mines and cancelling gas projects) if things don't all go to plan. In the meantime, power prices are going through the roof in addition to everyday items at the supermarket, mortgage rates, interest rates, fuel, insurance, council fees and everything else. Housing (especially affordable housing) is struggling to meet demand as more and more people arrive. Property prices and rents are still going up.

Polls are showing the Voice Referendum will crash big time. Only 8 out of 44 referendums have got up here but only with full bi-partisan support - which is not the case for this one. So what have we achieved in those last 15 months? In short, the new Albanese government has squandered real opportunities to actually enact progressive policy in favour of some 'feel good vibe' aspiration (which in reality it is not) and which would rid us all of the shame and guilt associated with 235 years of forced occupation.

What's even worse now is that the 2 major parties - both floundering on about 33-34% primary votes have to rely on the last 33-34% (made up of Greens, Teals, Independents, One Nation and a plethora of lunatic fringe 'parties') for preferences to form a much weaker and more divided 'majority' government. The cracks are already starting to appear as factions emerge on both sides and selfish, spiteful and vitriolic words are being flung around in both Houses and in the media as the true colours (and capabilities and real interests) of the politicians are being revealed as the pressure mounts.

Stay tuned. There will be some more interesting revelations and accusations coming to the fore in the next couple of months. I still have faith in the system but my patience is wearing so thin when it comes down to the individual people involved. As usual: were are burdened with another bunch of arrogant, dishonest, incompetent, gutless, spineless, unrealistic and divisive 'players' who seem only capable of adding more pressure and confusion to an increasingly desperate situation.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:48 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Thanks Navy - I'll just note that you didn't answer my question... ...

Well, I was struggling on that, so I thought I'd try to distract a bit...

by **Pal Joey** Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:54 pm

So 10 hours after my above rant I guess what I'm saying is that you'll most likely turf out a stale conservative government who'll no doubt be forced to shoulder all the blame for all the things that have gone wrong over the past 13 years. And rightly so of course.

Starmer and co. will then probably spend their first couple of years in office declaring "this was the mess we were left with" and "we've uncovered more things the previous government hid from you". But if they spend too much time attributing blame and don't show strong leadership themselves with real results to back up their decision and policy making... then things can also quickly swing back against them and some people might think - the last lot were pretty awful... but this lot is almost as bad! I think that's what's happening here. Shorter honeymoon periods and an increasingly restless and more demanding electorate... and an even more frenzied media.

We are all too clued up with world events now and most of us have a lot of common sense - so any Government which simply tries to 'hang in there' and blame the predecessor for all things going wrong (in a quick-changing future) will face a similar fate. It'll be just the 13 years v the 5 or 10 years or whatever period of the new government lasts. But they'll still have to toe the 'globalist' line and 'pay homage' to the group of big businesses that backed them into power.

The only thing which might change is if there's a global grass roots anti-neo-liberal revolt but I don't think that's coming soon. Too many countries (and corporations) are addicted to this system and are still completely geared or dependent to that economic school of thought. They'll fight tooth and nail to preserve it. There'll be more cases of popular uprisings, protests, etc. as we see in places like France but they are simply local spot fires which can be put out - thereby maintaining the status quo generally.

There might be some policy tinkering around the edges based on popular reactions to certain things (e.g. treatment of asylum seekers) but overall the global geo political system is so entrenched (and getting worse) that a) it's quite hard to untangle it all without severe changes or ramifications (like tougher laws and restrictions as we had during covid for example) and b) who wants to put their hand up to enact any radical change to what we've got right now? It's quite a scary situation we've boxed ourselves into.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu Aug 10, 2023 9:51 pm

F*cking hell PJ, shoot me now!

by **Pal Joey** Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:03 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:F*cking hell PJ, shoot me now!

"Nahh, I wanna do you slowly.... "
P.J. Keating

Spoiler:

Which part caught your attention, Jules? The uprising bit? Or just the general pessimism? Laugh

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:08 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:F*cking hell PJ, shoot me now!

"Nahh, I wanna do you slowly.... "
P.J. Keating

Which part caught your attention, Jules? The uprising bit? Or just the general pessimism?

The general pessimism, although I don't think it's misplaced.

by **Pal Joey** Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:16 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Pal Joey wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:F*cking hell PJ, shoot me now!

"Nahh, I wanna do you slowly.... "
P.J. Keating

Which part caught your attention, Jules? The uprising bit? Or just the general pessimism?

The general pessimism, although I don't think it's misplaced.

Yeah, just be sure to keep safe when the inevitable turmoil erupts and always scope out a quick escape route beforehand if possible.

by Samo Sat Aug 12, 2023 3:17 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:59 pm

Pal Joey wrote:So 10 hours after my above rant I guess what I'm saying is that you'll most likely turf out a stale conservative government who'll no doubt be forced to shoulder all the blame for all the things that have gone wrong over the past 13 years. And rightly so of course.

Starmer and co. will then probably spend their first couple of years in office declaring "this was the mess we were left with" and "we've uncovered more things the previous government hid from you". But if they spend too much time attributing blame and don't show strong leadership themselves with real results to back up their decision and policy making... then things can also quickly swing back against them and some people might think - the last lot were pretty awful... but this lot is almost as bad! I think that's what's happening here. Shorter honeymoon periods and an increasingly restless and more demanding electorate... and an even more frenzied media..

Starmer will win but he has a few problems....

1. He thinks he is Blair.....But Blair had a positive rating and Starmer is negatively viewed......So there is no Honeymoon period....Blair was a fresh change and this guy is a plank who is winning because the Tories have offered him a gift....Sunak in the last poll was beating Starmer in the Leader stakes believe it or not....Charisma can't be bought and Starmer hasn't got any..

2. Many of the people voting for him expect change.....Standard of living is poor and Starmer will have to spend money which being an Orange book Liberal he doesn't want to do....As he has lost nearly 200k members and is relying on Corporations to give him money......These corporations will want pay back.....Going to be some tears...

3. Blair had Heavyweights to help him........Brown....Mandelson.....Darling etc.........All tower over the pitiful Reeves...Streeting lightweights.....

Labour in Government aren't going to be allowed to be a right wing Liberal outfit and when a country is struggling.....Saying it's the last guy's fault isn't an excuse that can stand up for long...

Look at Biden..........He's behind in most polls to a guy wanted in half the States of America...

by **navyblueshorts** Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:50 am

Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.

Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

by Duty281 Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:14 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.
Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

No one with any sense will touch the issue of EU reentry for at least a decade. Opening up all the divisions and divides once more could jeopardise Labour's polling lead and let the Tories back in. Labour got hammered in 2019 (x2) at least partially because they floated the idea of staying in, so it would be a reckless gamble to roll the same dice when they're currently in possession of a near-unassailable lead.

But, that said, the longer we're out the less likely is it we'll rejoin. For now the idea of Brexit is tied to this terrible Tory government. Soon those ties will vanish.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:05 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.
Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

Starmer is a fraud......Pushed the People's vote to stuff Corbyn and now says re-entry is a no no.....Why ?? Because he has to win the red wall back he cost Corbyn with the PV in the first place (Anti semitism didn't lose the GE, Brexit was the number 1 issue)....Get it in to your head Starmer is a careerist that doesn't believe in anything....

Backtracked on Corporation tax...Green deal.....Constituencies picking their own Mp candidates.....Public sector wage rises..Taxing the rich....and just about everything........Why his numbers are appalling.

As for this appalling Government.....Persecuting immigrants is easier than finding solutions to fix the mess the Country is in.....

If they think they can win an Election doing it.......Well....They are just as dumb as everyone thinks they are !!

Like the USA every four years sadly.....You pick the least worst option.

by Samo Tue Aug 15, 2023 9:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.
Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

No one with any sense will touch the issue of EU reentry for at least a decade. Opening up all the divisions and divides once more could jeopardise Labour's polling lead and let the Tories back in. Labour got hammered in 2019 (x2) at least partially because they floated the idea of staying in, so it would be a reckless gamble to roll the same dice when they're currently in possession of a near-unassailable lead.

But, that said, the longer we're out the less likely is it we'll rejoin. For now the idea of Brexit is tied to this terrible Tory government. Soon those ties will vanish.

Poll after poll after poll show ever growing support to rejoin. Brexit is a disaster and people are starting to realise it. The next election wont be fought on rejoining, but I can definitely see Starmer pushing to rejoin before the election after that. Elections are a lot easier to win when you have something to blame for the countries problems. Starmer could easily turn round and say "We cant fix the country as much as we wanted to unless we rejoin the SM/CU at a minimum". The only problem is full EU membership comes with caveats we previously werent privy to; its very likely we'd need to join Schengen and adopt the Euro.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:32 pm

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.
Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

No one with any sense will touch the issue of EU reentry for at least a decade. Opening up all the divisions and divides once more could jeopardise Labour's polling lead and let the Tories back in. Labour got hammered in 2019 (x2) at least partially because they floated the idea of staying in, so it would be a reckless gamble to roll the same dice when they're currently in possession of a near-unassailable lead.

But, that said, the longer we're out the less likely is it we'll rejoin. For now the idea of Brexit is tied to this terrible Tory government. Soon those ties will vanish.

Poll after poll after poll show ever growing support to rejoin. Brexit is a disaster and people are starting to realise it. The next election wont be fought on rejoining, but I can definitely see Starmer pushing to rejoin before the election after that. Elections are a lot easier to win when you have something to blame for the countries problems. Starmer could easily turn round and say "We cant fix the country as much as we wanted to unless we rejoin the SM/CU at a minimum". The only problem is full EU membership comes with caveats we previously werent privy to; its very likely we'd need to join Schengen and adopt the Euro.

42% want out of the EU and they are in Northern marginals like Bury and Oldham.....The likelihood of Starmer going for a ballot is as likely as Torquay winning the Premiership........Especially as he will be receiving a tanked Economy and will be struggling in the polls anyway once Labour voters recognise a closet Tory fraud..

by Duty281 Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:12 pm

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.
Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

No one with any sense will touch the issue of EU reentry for at least a decade. Opening up all the divisions and divides once more could jeopardise Labour's polling lead and let the Tories back in. Labour got hammered in 2019 (x2) at least partially because they floated the idea of staying in, so it would be a reckless gamble to roll the same dice when they're currently in possession of a near-unassailable lead.

But, that said, the longer we're out the less likely is it we'll rejoin. For now the idea of Brexit is tied to this terrible Tory government. Soon those ties will vanish.

Poll after poll after poll show ever growing support to rejoin. Brexit is a disaster and people are starting to realise it. The next election wont be fought on rejoining, but I can definitely see Starmer pushing to rejoin before the election after that. Elections are a lot easier to win when you have something to blame for the countries problems. Starmer could easily turn round and say "We cant fix the country as much as we wanted to unless we rejoin the SM/CU at a minimum". The only problem is full EU membership comes with caveats we previously werent privy to; its very likely we'd need to join Schengen and adopt the Euro.

So if the EU is so wonderful, what's wrong with joining Schengen and adopting the Euro?

If the UK does make the mistake of rejoining the EU, we should of course sign up wholesale to the EU, rather than resuming our previous relationship, which was of no benefit to anyone and where the UK frequently antagonised the EU.

We're either out of the EU or we fully integrate with it. And any future referendum should offer that choice, which would be a complete and honest one. The only issue with that, as many rejoiners know, is the British public is unlikely to vote for full integration.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:35 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.
Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

No one with any sense will touch the issue of EU reentry for at least a decade. Opening up all the divisions and divides once more could jeopardise Labour's polling lead and let the Tories back in. Labour got hammered in 2019 (x2) at least partially because they floated the idea of staying in, so it would be a reckless gamble to roll the same dice when they're currently in possession of a near-unassailable lead.

But, that said, the longer we're out the less likely is it we'll rejoin. For now the idea of Brexit is tied to this terrible Tory government. Soon those ties will vanish.

Poll after poll after poll show ever growing support to rejoin. Brexit is a disaster and people are starting to realise it. The next election wont be fought on rejoining, but I can definitely see Starmer pushing to rejoin before the election after that. Elections are a lot easier to win when you have something to blame for the countries problems. Starmer could easily turn round and say "We cant fix the country as much as we wanted to unless we rejoin the SM/CU at a minimum". The only problem is full EU membership comes with caveats we previously werent privy to; its very likely we'd need to join Schengen and adopt the Euro.

42% want out of the EU and they are in Northern marginals like Bury and Oldham.....The likelihood of Starmer going for a ballot is as likely as Torquay winning the Premiership........Especially as he will be receiving a tanked Economy and will be struggling in the polls anyway once Labour voters recognise a closet Tory fraud..

So bribe them. Go back into the EU, you get some nice investment etc. Won't happen, but could do.

Also, could we actually have a proper debate re. the benefits, or not, as part of the EU. That would make a change, but won't hold my breath.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:03 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.
Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

No one with any sense will touch the issue of EU reentry for at least a decade. Opening up all the divisions and divides once more could jeopardise Labour's polling lead and let the Tories back in. Labour got hammered in 2019 (x2) at least partially because they floated the idea of staying in, so it would be a reckless gamble to roll the same dice when they're currently in possession of a near-unassailable lead.

But, that said, the longer we're out the less likely is it we'll rejoin. For now the idea of Brexit is tied to this terrible Tory government. Soon those ties will vanish.

Poll after poll after poll show ever growing support to rejoin. Brexit is a disaster and people are starting to realise it. The next election wont be fought on rejoining, but I can definitely see Starmer pushing to rejoin before the election after that. Elections are a lot easier to win when you have something to blame for the countries problems. Starmer could easily turn round and say "We cant fix the country as much as we wanted to unless we rejoin the SM/CU at a minimum". The only problem is full EU membership comes with caveats we previously werent privy to; its very likely we'd need to join Schengen and adopt the Euro.

42% want out of the EU and they are in Northern marginals like Bury and Oldham.....The likelihood of Starmer going for a ballot is as likely as Torquay winning the Premiership........Especially as he will be receiving a tanked Economy and will be struggling in the polls anyway once Labour voters recognise a closet Tory fraud..
So bribe them. Go back into the EU, you get some nice investment etc. Won't happen, but could do.

Also, could we actually have a proper debate re. the benefits, or not, as part of the EU. That would make a change, but won't hold my breath.

That's a fair summary..

Last GE threw up some interesting voting patterns for sure.....Live in the outer suburbs and I know that some of the Farmers up the road were voting Labour believe it or not because of EU subsidies...These people are stone wall Tories generally.......Where as a lot of struggling types in the struggling sections of Town who needed a labour Govt were voting Conservative because they tended to go a long with the faux-argument that Brexit means a halt on immigrants they generally blame for everything........Despite the fact they are a net positive on the Economy..

Though being an immigrant myself I tend to be biased anyway.

Not quite sure either party is sure of its new base....

by Samo Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:12 am

Duty281 wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-66476538

Legionella found in Bibby Stockholm water supply.

Just a shambles. An expensive stunt designed to do nothing but generate headlines to distract from the other failings of this government.
Shambles, absolutely. However, really looking forward to how Labour are going to deal with this issue (and the non-boat related migration inwards to the UK), while still maintaining their avowed position on Brexit, UNHR etc. Should be fun.

Actually, would be nice if Starmer and Labour were honest and campaigned on an EU re-entry at some point in the future. Everyone knows that's what they think should happen and get the feeling polls now suggest more of a shift away from the idea of Brexit, given how its played out so far. Might have been nice if Labour had the cojones/honesty to campaign at least partly on that, as I imagine the Tories are so deep in the mire, even Labour doing this wouldn't save them. Still, they're politicians...

No one with any sense will touch the issue of EU reentry for at least a decade. Opening up all the divisions and divides once more could jeopardise Labour's polling lead and let the Tories back in. Labour got hammered in 2019 (x2) at least partially because they floated the idea of staying in, so it would be a reckless gamble to roll the same dice when they're currently in possession of a near-unassailable lead.

But, that said, the longer we're out the less likely is it we'll rejoin. For now the idea of Brexit is tied to this terrible Tory government. Soon those ties will vanish.

Poll after poll after poll show ever growing support to rejoin. Brexit is a disaster and people are starting to realise it. The next election wont be fought on rejoining, but I can definitely see Starmer pushing to rejoin before the election after that. Elections are a lot easier to win when you have something to blame for the countries problems. Starmer could easily turn round and say "We cant fix the country as much as we wanted to unless we rejoin the SM/CU at a minimum". The only problem is full EU membership comes with caveats we previously werent privy to; its very likely we'd need to join Schengen and adopt the Euro.

So if the EU is so wonderful, what's wrong with joining Schengen and adopting the Euro?

If the UK does make the mistake of rejoining the EU, we should of course sign up wholesale to the EU, rather than resuming our previous relationship, which was of no benefit to anyone and where the UK frequently antagonised the EU.

We're either out of the EU or we fully integrate with it. And any future referendum should offer that choice, which would be a complete and honest one. The only issue with that, as many rejoiners know, is the British public is unlikely to vote for full integration.

Theres nothing wrong with either of them in my opinion. Im just pointing out that our relationship as members wont be the same as it was before which makes selling the prospect of rejoining a bit harder.

Our previous relationship was of no benefit to anyone? You've seen the economic damage leaving has cost, haven't you?

by Duty281 Wed Aug 16, 2023 1:50 am

Exactly, and that's why the polls are largely meaningless at present, because no one knows what terms would be applicable in order to rejoin. If rejoining the EU meant going in wholesale, including Schengen and the Euro (both junk ideas), then there's more chance of the Netherlands winning the upcoming Cricket World Cup than the UK voting to rejoin. That's before you even get into the ideas of the UK once more ceding control of law-making power, immigration within the EU and trade policy, among other aspects, to the EU.

by Samo Wed Aug 16, 2023 1:58 am

Ok mate.

by No name Bertie Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:51 pm

It seems only fair to give Scotland a second referendum first.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:24 pm

Yougov.....Is Starmer doing well or badly ????

Well...29%
Badly 49%

The 15 point lead in the polls is simply down to an incompetent Government....simple as.

by GSC Wed Aug 16, 2023 11:24 pm

And a second motorhome

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Aug 17, 2023 5:58 am

Duty281 wrote:Exactly, and that's why the polls are largely meaningless at present, because no one knows what terms would be applicable in order to rejoin. If rejoining the EU meant going in wholesale, including Schengen and the Euro (both junk ideas), then there's more chance of the Netherlands winning the upcoming Cricket World Cup than the UK voting to rejoin. That's before you even get into the ideas of the UK once more ceding control of law-making power, immigration within the EU and trade policy, among other aspects, to the EU.

That's bull-crud.......No one knew anything about terms or minutiae last time....No one gave a C**p sadly...

If there is a new referendum it will be dumbed down like the last one......You know where leaving the EU was going to start WW3 and staying would mean 90% of the UK would be Polish by 2050 and the NHS would be getting Billions and Billions...

You give the British people far too much credit.... Political round up............. - Page 11 3559488474

Political round up............. - Page 11 3559488474

by **navyblueshorts** Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:12 am

Looks like Prigozhin may have experienced a slightly more 'exciting' version of the standard Russian "He fell out of the window m'lud" ending...

by alfie Fri Aug 25, 2023 5:51 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Looks like Prigozhin may have experienced a slightly more 'exciting' version of the standard Russian "He fell out of the window m'lud" ending...

Bit more spectacular than poison in his vodka...frankly surprised he's lasted this long.

Of course the other possibility is he's actually faked his own death here (mangled bodies etc) and is happily off to Rio Smile

by No name Bertie Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:47 am

Prigozhin was in Africa recently saying he was planning to expand Wagner's role in Africa in helping to decolonize Africa from its imperial colonizers. The US Deputy Secretary of State was in Niger a few days after the Niger Coup warning the Coup Leaders not to invite Wagner group into Niger. The US have an on-going Global War on Terror Campaign with drone bases throughout Africa and Asia and the Middle East regularly killing groups and individuals they deem to be terrorists. Russians in Russia have already been assassinated that are considered to be Terrorists or Enemies of Ukraine, hence the US cannot be ruled out in carrying this out. The French also have reasons to kill Prigozhin. It is unlikely Putin would have had Prigozhin killed in such an open manner and during the very important BRICS summit in South Africa, but elements within the Russian Military may have had grievances against Prigozhin - especially given the Wagner group shot down a Russian Military plane during Prigozhins "march" to Moscow.

by **superflyweight** Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:49 am

No name Bertie wrote:Prigozhin was in Africa recently saying he was planning to expand Wagner's role in Africa in helping to decolonize Africa from its imperial colonizers. The US Deputy Secretary of State was in Niger a few days after the Niger Coup warning the Coup Leaders not to invite Wagner group into Niger. The US have an on-going Global War on Terror Campaign with drone bases throughout Africa and Asia and the Middle East regularly killing groups and individuals they deem to be terrorists. Russians in Russia have already been assassinated that are considered to be Terrorists or Enemies of Ukraine, hence the US cannot be ruled out in carrying this out. The French also have reasons to kill Prigozhin. It is unlikely Putin would have had Prigozhin killed in such an open manner and during the very important BRICS summit in South Africa, but elements within the Russian Military may have had grievances against Prigozhin - especially given the Wagner group shot down a Russian Military plane during Prigozhins "march" to Moscow.

by No name Bertie Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:51 am

superflyweight wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Prigozhin was in Africa recently saying he was planning to expand Wagner's role in Africa in helping to decolonize Africa from its imperial colonizers. The US Deputy Secretary of State was in Niger a few days after the Niger Coup warning the Coup Leaders not to invite Wagner group into Niger. The US have an on-going Global War on Terror Campaign with drone bases throughout Africa and Asia and the Middle East regularly killing groups and individuals they deem to be terrorists. Russians in Russia have already been assassinated that are considered to be Terrorists or Enemies of Ukraine, hence the US cannot be ruled out in carrying this out. The French also have reasons to kill Prigozhin. It is unlikely Putin would have had Prigozhin killed in such an open manner and during the very important BRICS summit in South Africa, but elements within the Russian Military may have had grievances against Prigozhin - especially given the Wagner group shot down a Russian Military plane during Prigozhins "march" to Moscow.

Why are you laughing?

by Soul Requiem Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:53 am

No name Bertie wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Prigozhin was in Africa recently saying he was planning to expand Wagner's role in Africa in helping to decolonize Africa from its imperial colonizers. The US Deputy Secretary of State was in Niger a few days after the Niger Coup warning the Coup Leaders not to invite Wagner group into Niger. The US have an on-going Global War on Terror Campaign with drone bases throughout Africa and Asia and the Middle East regularly killing groups and individuals they deem to be terrorists. Russians in Russia have already been assassinated that are considered to be Terrorists or Enemies of Ukraine, hence the US cannot be ruled out in carrying this out. The French also have reasons to kill Prigozhin. It is unlikely Putin would have had Prigozhin killed in such an open manner and during the very important BRICS summit in South Africa, but elements within the Russian Military may have had grievances against Prigozhin - especially given the Wagner group shot down a Russian Military plane during Prigozhins "march" to Moscow.

Why are you laughing?

by No name Bertie Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:55 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Prigozhin was in Africa recently saying he was planning to expand Wagner's role in Africa in helping to decolonize Africa from its imperial colonizers. The US Deputy Secretary of State was in Niger a few days after the Niger Coup warning the Coup Leaders not to invite Wagner group into Niger. The US have an on-going Global War on Terror Campaign with drone bases throughout Africa and Asia and the Middle East regularly killing groups and individuals they deem to be terrorists. Russians in Russia have already been assassinated that are considered to be Terrorists or Enemies of Ukraine, hence the US cannot be ruled out in carrying this out. The French also have reasons to kill Prigozhin. It is unlikely Putin would have had Prigozhin killed in such an open manner and during the very important BRICS summit in South Africa, but elements within the Russian Military may have had grievances against Prigozhin - especially given the Wagner group shot down a Russian Military plane during Prigozhins "march" to Moscow.

Why are you laughing?

When people have no civilized educated responses they resort to scorn, mockery or violence. No wonder we live in such divisive times where inequality and exploitation is off the charts while hundreds and billions are happily sent annually overseas for war and furthering peoples interests.

by Samo Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:27 am

No name Bertie wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Prigozhin was in Africa recently saying he was planning to expand Wagner's role in Africa in helping to decolonize Africa from its imperial colonizers. The US Deputy Secretary of State was in Niger a few days after the Niger Coup warning the Coup Leaders not to invite Wagner group into Niger. The US have an on-going Global War on Terror Campaign with drone bases throughout Africa and Asia and the Middle East regularly killing groups and individuals they deem to be terrorists. Russians in Russia have already been assassinated that are considered to be Terrorists or Enemies of Ukraine, hence the US cannot be ruled out in carrying this out. The French also have reasons to kill Prigozhin. It is unlikely Putin would have had Prigozhin killed in such an open manner and during the very important BRICS summit in South Africa, but elements within the Russian Military may have had grievances against Prigozhin - especially given the Wagner group shot down a Russian Military plane during Prigozhins "march" to Moscow.

Why are you laughing?

When people have no civilized educated responses they resort to scorn, mockery or violence. No wonder we live in such divisive times where inequality and exploitation is off the charts while hundreds and billions are happily sent annually overseas for war and furthering peoples interests.

by **Pr4wn** Sat Aug 26, 2023 3:40 am

I think Occam's Razor applies here, people.

by Derek Smalls Sun Aug 27, 2023 12:45 am

He means to say, that Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.
Or to put it another way, "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"
Or
"Frustra fit per plura quod potest fieri per pauciora"
Or
"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Aug 29, 2023 10:42 pm

Prighozin lasted a few weeks longer than most of us thought......Reminds me of Marcos killing Ninoy Aquino......Just as pathetically predictable....

Prighozin gambled and lost.....Will someone else gamble and succeed ???

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Aug 30, 2023 9:44 pm

No wealth tax...No more Corporation taxes..No taxing higher earners...

Where is the money coming from for change ??...From miracle Economic growth ???

With standard of living for many at rock bottom.....If Labour honestly think the working classes are putting them in to keep the status quo they are more stupid than I thought....

Starmer = One term Charlie....I'll be voting Conservative with the rest of my family...Can't stomach the muppet.

by Duty281 Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:45 am

I mean, Labour have been outLaboured by the Tories. Taxes are astonishingly high, so there's little more Labour can do. A wealth tax would be pointless - just watch the richest leave the UK and pay zero taxes - and Labour will keep corporation tax at the high 25%, so I'm not sure what you mean by no more corporation taxes.

Vote Tory? This isn't America, Truss. If you don't like one, you don't have to vote for the other.

Meanwhile, the Germans are getting on with a tax cut. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-agrees-7-bln-euro-tax-cut-boost-flagging-economy-2023-08-29/

The Germans do need to do something, as they're heading for a 'sick man of Europe' reputation, with the IMF saying they will be the only major economy not to grow in 2023. Should have listened to the orange man...

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu Aug 31, 2023 6:31 am

Is there any conclusive evidence that a wealth tax would cause so many rich people to leave the UK that it would represent a net tax loss for the government?

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 01, 2023 12:14 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:Is there any conclusive evidence that a wealth tax would cause so many rich people to leave the UK that it would represent a net tax loss for the government?

i do find it amusing the way people talk about leaving their adopted Country as if it's easy....Hugely difficult leaving your comfort zone and adjusting......Shed many a tear in my first few years over here.....No Mum and Dad to stroke your ego when you are down, compromised in most scenarios with little power or say.... Always made to feel the need to be grateful..Lonely times.....and I didn't have to worry about things like..

1. Language barrier.
2. A partner resenting having to leave her comfortable life and friends and move to a place where you feel like an outsider...
3. Children being uprooted...Which is probably the greatest challenge of all..
4. The locals hating outsiders with money invading their territory.

Blackmailing that wealth will leave over politics is doggy doo doo.........Yes the Wealthy guy may desire it......But likely the family won't.

Let them go they will soon be back.

by **navyblueshorts** Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:07 am

No name Bertie wrote:Prigozhin was in Africa recently saying he was planning to expand Wagner's role in Africa in helping to decolonize Africa from its imperial colonizers. The US Deputy Secretary of State was in Niger a few days after the Niger Coup warning the Coup Leaders not to invite Wagner group into Niger. The US have an on-going Global War on Terror Campaign with drone bases throughout Africa and Asia and the Middle East regularly killing groups and individuals they deem to be terrorists. Russians in Russia have already been assassinated that are considered to be Terrorists or Enemies of Ukraine, hence the US cannot be ruled out in carrying this out. The French also have reasons to kill Prigozhin. It is unlikely Putin would have had Prigozhin killed in such an open manner and during the very important BRICS summit in South Africa, but elements within the Russian Military may have had grievances against Prigozhin - especially given the Wagner group shot down a Russian Military plane during Prigozhins "march" to Moscow.

Oh. My. God.

by Duty281 Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:54 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:Is there any conclusive evidence that a wealth tax would cause so many rich people to leave the UK that it would represent a net tax loss for the government?

It would depend how the wealth tax is implemented, I suppose. One-off or continual? One example may come from France:

Spoiler:

Equally, Labour abandoned a proposed wealth tax in the 1970s because they didn't think it could work:

Spoiler:

by lostinwales Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:58 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Prigozhin was in Africa recently saying he was planning to expand Wagner's role in Africa in helping to decolonize Africa from its imperial colonizers. The US Deputy Secretary of State was in Niger a few days after the Niger Coup warning the Coup Leaders not to invite Wagner group into Niger. The US have an on-going Global War on Terror Campaign with drone bases throughout Africa and Asia and the Middle East regularly killing groups and individuals they deem to be terrorists. Russians in Russia have already been assassinated that are considered to be Terrorists or Enemies of Ukraine, hence the US cannot be ruled out in carrying this out. The French also have reasons to kill Prigozhin. It is unlikely Putin would have had Prigozhin killed in such an open manner and during the very important BRICS summit in South Africa, but elements within the Russian Military may have had grievances against Prigozhin - especially given the Wagner group shot down a Russian Military plane during Prigozhins "march" to Moscow.
Oh. My. God.

They walk among us

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 08, 2023 10:30 pm

London mayor polling.....Without Corbyn running..

Khan....33% Lab
Hall......32% Con
Blackie..16% Lib Dem

With Corbyn....

Hall......30%
Khan....25%
Corbyn.15%
Blackie.15%

Go on Corbyn run for it..

by Duty281 Fri Sep 08, 2023 10:39 pm

Labour's best chance is to get rid of Khan. Polls had him with big, double digit leads in the run-up to 2021, and it ended up being a lot closer than envisaged, so if he's only got a 1% lead now then that represents a big problem.

Another way to look at it is Khan leads by 33-32, but Labour in a GE in London are leading the same polling by 47-27, so Khan's unpopularity is manifest.

If Corbyn runs for Mayor then he'll be doing what he's done all his political life - helping the Tories.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:01 pm

Duty281 wrote:Labour's best chance is to get rid of Khan. Polls had him with big, double digit leads in the run-up to 2021, and it ended up being a lot closer than envisaged, so if he's only got a 1% lead now then that represents a big problem.

Another way to look at it is Khan leads by 33-32, but Labour in a GE in London are leading the same polling by 47-27, so Khan's unpopularity is manifest.

If Corbyn runs for Mayor then he'll be doing what he's done all his political life - helping the Tories.

Like in 2017 when he turned a Tory majority in to a Hung parliament.

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