Wales International Rugby Summer 23 onwards.

First topic message reminder :

As the pages were going over 20 shortly, I’ve had to start a new thread. This is still the place to discuss the U20s, the women and everything else internationally. Updated RWC 23 squad below.

Forwards (25)

Corey Domachowski (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Kemsley Mathias (Scarlets – uncapped)
Nicky Smith (Ospreys / Gweilch– 42 caps)
Gareth Thomas (Ospreys /Gweilch – 21 caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons / Dregiau– 41 caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets – 33 caps)
Dewi Lake (Ospreys / Gweilch – 8 caps)
Sam Parry (Ospreys / Gweilch – 5 caps)
Keiron Assiratti (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Tomas Francis (Ospreys / Gweilch – 71 caps)
Dillon Lewis (Harlequins – 50 caps)
Henry Thomas (Montpellier – uncapped)
Adam Beard (Ospreys / Gweilch– 46 caps)
Ben Carter (Dragons / Dregiau– 9 caps)
Rhys Davies (Ospreys / Gweilch – 2 caps)
Dafydd Jenkins (Exeter Chiefs / Caerwysg – 6 caps)
Will Rowlands (Dragons / Dregiau – 23 caps)
Christ Tshiunza (Exeter Chiefs / Caerwysg – 5 caps)
Teddy Williams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Taine Basham (Dragons / Dregiau – 11 caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 100 caps)
Dan Lydiate (Dragons / Dregiau – 68 caps)
Jac Morgan (Ospreys / Gweilch – 9 caps)
Tommy Reffell (Leicester Tigers / Caerlŷr– 9 caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons / Dregiau – 37 caps)

Backs (22)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets – 67 caps)
Kieran Hardy (Scarlets – 17 caps)
Tomos Williams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 45 caps)
Gareth Anscombe (unattached – 35 caps)
Dan Biggar (Toulon – 107 caps)
Sam Costelow (Scarlets – 2 caps)
Owen Williams (Ospreys / Gweilch – 7 caps)
Mason Grady (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 2 caps)
Max Llewellyn (Gloucester Rugby / Caerloyw – uncapped)
George North (Ospreys / Gweilch – 113 caps)
Joe Roberts (Scarlets – uncapped)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens – 27 caps)
Johnny Williams (Scarlets – 5 caps)
Keiran Williams (Ospreys / Gweilch – uncapped)
Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 49 caps)
Alex Cuthbert (Ospreys / Gweilch – 57 caps)
Rio Dyer (Dragons / Dregiau – 7 caps)
Cai Evans (Ospreys/ Gweilch – uncapped)
Leigh Halfpenny (unattached – 99 caps)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester Rugby / Caerloyw– 25 caps)
Tom Rogers (Scarlets – 2 caps)
Liam Williams (Cardiff Rugby/ Caerdydd – 84 caps)

I think Rogers and Hardy are shocking too. Barely regional standard.

England team to face Wales: Steward; Arundell, Marchant, Lawrence, Daly; Farrell (capt), Van Poortvliet; Marler, George, Stuart, Itoje, Martin, Lawes, Earl, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Dan, Genge, Cole, Hill, Willis, Youngs, Ford, Malins


I'm quite worried about Tompkins and Rogers having to defend against those backs. Roberts I'm not sure about but we'll see.

Aus look like they’ve gone backwards under Eddie. He’s taking one fly-half to the World Cup, he’s left out Samu and Hooper, and Skelton is captain despite struggling to last a full game at this level. I think Wales and Fiji could turn them over.

* They’re also missing a premier TH and Tupou seems to be carrying an injury. Their best hooker I think is Folau but he’s out injured.

Agreed Mikey about Oz. Taking one 10, who has fewer than 5 caps, is cavalier in the extreme.

But the lack of strength at tight head is probably an even bigger issue.

When fully fit Tuipou is a 50 minute player, at best
The two others are greener than grass in the first flush of spring.
The scrum got taken apart by a New Zealand B team ( sorry maaaaaaate) and this won't have escaped the notice of all their WC opponents.

Worth noting their final warm up game is against France. Even Les Blues third choice front row will relish the task of dismantling their scrum.

Well well I think that was Beard’s worst game for Wales. The lineout just didn’t function, in fact it was terrible and a lot of that can be put on him. It’s meant to be his strength. Concerning that he’s likely to be on the plane with Tshiunza not really making a mark. I pray Daf Jenkins is fit, I think he is playing himself into first choice with Rowlands.

Back-row, well again Tshiunza, and Lydiate also not doing enough to make the Final Cut.

Injuries to hooker is a concern. The lineout wasn’t functioning well with Lake but apart from that I think he could become one of our best players. Parry the same, he’s a big man for hooker. It’s our slighter man at No.2 Dee actually in the lead due to his darts last week. I would never have predicted that. Possibly call-up for Roberts incoming and perhaps Rhodri Williams for Hardy.

Can't see Hardy leaving the squad.

Beard was pretty weak today, considering his fitness testing etc has been talked up. I wonder if Cement Head will look at Rhys Davies and Rowlands. Think Reffell kind of blew his audition today too.

Agree on Dee being the best hooking option, from the two games. I think the others would be perceived as better scrummagers, but Dee does tend to throw very well when he isn't messing around with stepping to our side of the lineout or whinging about the gap.

Gatland's tactics really show how LRZ has to start, so at least we can make something from nothing whilst chasing kicks etc.

I’m just supposing with Hardy, as it seems pretty serious for him to drop out today but he shouldn’t have been in anyway. Dee has struggled with throwing in the past but he was very good last week.

Looks twice as bad for Beard now that you’ve reminded me how he was being talked up. I probably need to rewatch the game and do another analysis as I was looking after my son, but I’m in no hurry to rewatch such a ‘test’.

Apart from his time in SA, Reffell hasn’t been that good for Wales.

I’m just watching the game for the first time now. Not a great spectacle so far!

Gatland made some pretty damning comments post match about players blowing their chances: ‘we found out about some players today’, or words to that effect. He talked about players giving away stupid penalties at bad times and under pressure. Who was he talking about? From reading above and the England thread sounds like Beard and Reffell didn’t impress? How much can we read into the ‘better’ performance of the other Wales side last week, given how poor England were? Do we see last week’s Wales team being the core of the WC team?

Thoughts on the new(ish) guys? Plumtree, Joe Roberts, Rogers, Rhys Davies?
Edit: Mathias and Kieran Williams too?

After yesterday I'm not sure who our blindside is? But the rest of the pack is taking shape;

Smith
Dee
Thomas
Rowlands
Jenkins

Morgan
Wainwright/Faletau

I'm not sure why Mathias is scored as highly as he is on the player ratings, he failed to make an impression with a number of others.

mikey_dragon wrote:
Looks twice as bad for Beard now that you’ve reminded me how he was being talked up. I probably need to rewatch the game and do another analysis as I was looking after my son, but I’m in no hurry to rewatch such a ‘test’.

Apart from his time in SA, Reffell hasn’t been that good for Wales.

Reffell was 19 tackles 1 missed, 2 defenders beaten and 2 offloads. Bar the penalty for the yellow card which was a team card he didn't concede another penalty. He was a lot better than a lot of the other Welsh forwards, his main problem is that he isn't as good as Jac Morgan.

Beard was a dreadful captain on the day. Welsh lineout really let you down. Looked like he'd gone to the Sexton school of whining to ref about everything and anything. You can't be running that short on locks.

CT I presume will be your blindside. Gives another lineout option and adds some more bulk to the forwards whilst not losing any mobility.

I know Reffell does a lot of tackling, and that's why people are talking up Lydiate again but that isn't enough for Wales as we are short on big carriers. Both looked very average against Lawes and Earl.

CT hasn't been great in his few Wales appearances and seems to look lost. If we have other locks available then Beard shouldn't get on the plane based on that dreadful performance, but some of them are injured already and we also don't have Cory Hill or Jake Ball.

Yeah, we can't play Lydiate/our lord and saviour Christ with Reffell. If Faletau is fit, then I think they may have to either play Wainwright 6, or see if Reffell and Morgan can play together. We haven't got an abrasive 6 and we need to get some sort of carrying threat or somebody that offers a bit more than tackles made.

But it is Gatland's Wales again, so of course it's going to be a lump at 6.

For me trying Ben Carter at 6 now makes more sense than ever. He's good in the lineout (nobody ever talks him up over that), is fitter than Lydiate so can last a full game and also doesn't look completely lost like Tshiunza.

Wales: 15. Liam Williams, 14. Alex Cuthbert, 13. Mason Grady, 12. Johnny Williams, 11. Rio Dyer, 10. Dan Biggar, 9. Kieran Hardy, 1. Corey Domachowski, 2. Elliot Dee, 3. Keiron Assiratti, 4. Ben Carter, 5. Will Rowlands, 6. Dan Lydiate, 7. Jac Morgan (capt), 8. Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: 16. Sam Parry, 17. Nicky Smith, 18. Henry Thomas, 19. Teddy Williams, 20. Taine Basham, 21. Tomos Williams, 22. Max Llewellyn, 23. Cai Evans.

Team is a bit meh for me.

South Africa: 15. Willie le Roux, 14. Canan Moodie, 13. Jesse Kriel, 12. Damian de Allende, 11. Cheslin Kolbe, 10. Manie Libbok, 9. Jaden Hendrikse, 1. Steven Kitshoff, 2. Malcolm Marx, 3. Frans Malherbe, 4. Jean Kleyn, 5. RG Snyman, 6. Siya Kolisi (capt), 7. Pieter-Steph du Toit, 8. Jasper Wiese.

Replacements: 16. Bongi Mbonambi, 17. Ox Nche, 18. Vincent Koch, 19. Franco Mostert, 20. Marco van Staden, 21. Duane Vermeulen, 22. Grant Williams, 23. Damian Willemse.

Diasappointing lack of concern for Farrells shoulder on here I notice after Bashem head butted it.

mikey_dragon wrote:I know Reffell does a lot of tackling, and that's why people are talking up Lydiate again but that isn't enough for Wales as we are short on big carriers. Both looked very average against Lawes and Earl.

Yeah Reffell's strengths aren't in carrying. He's a quick thinker so a handy linkman but big carrier he's never going to be. Will tackle himself to a standstill and disrupt the breakdown. He looks great in the Tigers pack but it's in a backrow that's got some big 6s and 8s.

I would’ve still have stood Basham down this weekend, but there we go.

I really fear for our scrum looking at the respective packs. Front row especially look like a real mismatch.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I really fear for our scrum looking at the respective packs. Front row especially look like a real mismatch.

That it does. I might have started the bench props, with Domachowski and Francis on the bench. Gatland must be banking on Assirati having a stormer and displacing Francis but that seems unlikely. I'm finding it hard to look past a Boks win by 20.

RiscaGame wrote:I would’ve still have stood Basham down this weekend, but there we go.

I thought Basham failed the HIA? Isn't that a mandatory 2 weeks off?

Liam Williams and Dan Biggar out for us due to injury concerns. Cai Evans and Sam Costelow to replace them. From bad to worse .

Bradley Roberts has also been in with the squad training for the weekend. He'll act as cover as we have hookers dropping like flies. Assuming one of Elias / Lake recovers soon and will go to the world cup along with Dee and Parry.

Edit*
Just to add;

How are Dewi Lake and Taine Plumtree?

"Dewi is talking to the medics today. He has a little bit of a knee issue, and they are confident if he carries on with his rehab he will be fit for the first game, and the same prognosis for Taine."

The final squad is anyone's guess then, I guess.

Cuthbert's withdrawn now too. Tom Rogers starts, Rees-Zammit's on the bench.

Anyone else think there was a forward pass in the build-up to the 2nd SA try?

Close. But looked just about ok. Dyer with a brain fart there.

Hardy and Rogers are rubbish and are costing us this game.

Erm. I'd say that you can clearly see the south African touch it on slow mo. Harsh.

Warburton point is odd. If you do say its just off dyer it's a blatant pen try.

Green player touched that - Joy Neville strikes again ... even if he hadn't touched it he'd gone past it .... bad call ..

Oh dear. You don't throw it from there.

Nice pass by Grady….

How is that deliberately knocked into touch? Dyer didn’t seem to know what was going on.

Heaf wrote:Green player touched that - Joy Neville strikes again ... even if he hadn't touched it he'd gone past it .... bad call ..

I thought Moodie overran it too.

Useless

It was a rubbish call all round ... First I didn't think it was deliberately knocked into touch (looked more like he grabbed for it but didn't get hold of it), second the SA player had touched it anyway and finally the SA player wouldn't have scored anyway as he'd already missed it and it would have just bounced into touch if the Welsh player wasn't there ....

Brace should have stuck with his view that the SA player touched it rather than listen to the seemingly myopic Joy Neville who constantly gets calls wrong  ...

That should have been YC but no PT, but Wales are not helping themselves here. What was Grady doing there, trying to kick it?

mikey_dragon wrote:

Heaf wrote:Green player touched that - Joy Neville strikes again ... even if he hadn't touched it he'd gone past it .... bad call ..

I thought Moodie overran it too.

Moodie fumbled it backwards and wasn't in a position to regather. Dyer does bat it into touch after that. Shouldn't have been a penalty try but should have been a yellow.

Costelow is impressing as is Williams at 12. That's a nice little combination for Wales.

Heaf wrote:It was a rubbish call all round ... First I didn't think it was deliberately knocked into touch (looked more like he grabbed for it but didn't get hold of it), second the SA player had touched it anyway and finally the SA player wouldn't have scored anyway as he'd already missed it when it was knocked back by the Welsh player ....

Brace should have stuck with his view that the SA player touched it rather than listen to the seemingly myopic Joy Neville who constantly gets calls wrong  ...

I'd say he definitely looks to slap it out. But probably touched by Moodie. But when considering a pen try you have to remove the defender who fouled completely. When considering that very hard to think moodie wouldn't have had a simply walk in.

Can't see he was going to regather that as he was running away from the ball and it would have gone into touch ...

Heaf wrote:Can't see he was going to regather that as he was running away from the ball and it would have gone into touch ...

I reckon with no one near him he would have simply taken more time and caught it.

That's taking the other player out of the equation to the extreme - surely you can only consider taking them out from the point of the offence? Moodie had already missed/fumbled the ball at that point ...

Hardy is too slow and ponderous. He simply can’t go to the World Cup, he’s atrocious.

Heaf wrote:That's taking the other player out of the equation to the extreme - surely you can only consider taking them out from the point of the offence? Moodie had already missed/fumbled the ball at that point ...

Nope. He's no longer on the pitch. Consider moodie is receiving that kick with no one near him. Doubt he even fumbles under no pressure. But. I think there's a knock on anyway.

Hmmm I'm not sure about that - I think you can only consider the effect of the player being 'not there' from the point the offence is committed - otherwise you're guessing far too much what may or may not have happened before any offence was even committed. Or to put it another way Dyer knocking the ball out didn't cause Moodie to fumble the ball as the fumble came first ...

Another question though - if Joy Neville wasn't incompetent and saw the ball touched like everyone else would that have been judged a knock-on and then would any subsequent pen/YC be invalid - or would they still stand ie would it be consider foul-play sufficient to override the knock-on?

I think it would have gone to a scrum.

Nice intercept.

It's really not Wales day is it?

That is poor from Hardy, can't take that many steps before passing that far. Just invited the defence up into the passing lane.

Well, the only consolation is that this is a very good Boks team. And Wales haven’t got many 1st choice playing here. A few. But lots that are 2nd and 3 rd choice.

No excuses. We’re really not very good.

Hardy terrible and gives away an intercept. Rogers constantly trying to tag people in defence. The Welsh paying public don’t deserve this, especially with the price of everything….