Scotland - The Generic Moaning Thread 2024

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Tonga
Sunday, September 24
Stade de Nice - 4.45pm kick-off.

Scotland v Romania
Saturday, September 30
Stade Pierre-Mauroy, Lille - 8pm kick-off

Scotland v Paddy Cousins
Saturday, October 7
Stade de France - 8pm kick-off

***

The 20 teams are divided into four groups as follows:

Pool A – New Zealand, France, Italy, Uruguay, Namibia

Pool B – South Africa, Ireland, Scotland, Tonga, Romania

Pool C – Wales, Australia, Fiji, Georgia, Portugal

Pool D – England, Japan, Argentina, Samoa, Chile

The top two teams from each pool advance to the quarter-finals. The teams who finish third secure automatic qualification for the 2027 World Cup, which is scheduled to take place in Australia in 2027.

The quarter-final draw is as follows:

QF1 – Pool C winner v Pool D runner-up

QF 2 – Pool B winner v Pool A runner-up

QF 3 – Pool D winner v Pool C runner-up

QF 4 – Pool A winner v Pool B runner-up

That means if Scotland manage to progress from the group stages they would be likely to face New Zealand or France in the quarter-finals if results go as expected.

The semi-final draw is as follows:

Winner of QF 1 v Winner of QF2

Winner of QF 3 v Winner of QF 4

The 2023 Rugby World Cup final takes place on Saturday, October 28, at the Stade de France, kick-off 8pm.

[BigGee]

Why would he fall on his sword though?

This is professional sport, he has a living to make.

The only circumstances I can see that he might want to leave the job is if he had lost the dressing room and I am not seeing any signs of that just now.

Even in those circumstances, when coaches leave 'by mutual consent' they are in reality paid off and at the start of a three yesr contract, that would be very expensive.

The chance to move on from Toonie was prior to the WC and the general consensus then seemed to be he should stay.

If that was a bad call, it is something we are going to have to live with.

[bsando]

I think the SRU will obviously have a big debrief, RWC report etc and it’s going to look pretty bad for Toonie by the end of that. He will know it’s unlikely he’ll remain in contract once it has completed.

From his perspective, he would surely want the support of the union and players. He is a good coach who has achieved a lot with Scotland. That road has now reached the end and his only real purpose for continuing is keep Scotland competitive below the top teams.

In reality, that could mean scotland dropping below Wales and England given their improved performances of late. As other members in here have said, Scotland wouldn’t have been a free ride to the QF’s if they had been in Pool C or D. Being ranked 7th or 8th in a years time is a very real possibility. Do we want to be ranked low heading towards the next World Cup draw?

I am fairly certain Townsend will resign or will be forced out by the SRU.

[Rugby Fan]

The reason that Townsend has to go is because 1. He clearly cannot make the team any better than he has and 2. Without a new senior coach with new perspectives, the younger players in the squad are going to be badly damaged by the mental load of having capitulated so completely against other teams and having no reason to believe the next Tier 1 games will be any different.

The problem is mental as much as physical now. We need another plan in addition to ‘go wide fast’ because once teams structure their defense accordingly we have nothing else to try - Tom English is 100% right.

Did we capitulate? Really? I'll have to watch it again but on first viewing I thought we showed a lot of fight. We just got handed a hard lesson from a much better team. I think there is a recurrent issue around believing our own hype though. We need to manage the mental load differently, but as a player if you can't handle taking a lesson then maybe rugby isn't for you. Ireland are playing a different game, psychologically. They are streets ahead. Look at the way Sheehan reacted to being pushed over the advertising hoarding. He just walked away. Incredible restraint. Contrast that with Ollie Smith, who really deserves to be dropped for a while for his trip.

Nothing in the last 24hours was a revelation about Townsend. If the board are going to fork out £1.5m to buy him out now, then they should be outside selling matchday programmes rather than running a professional national org.  

We were 26-0 down by halftime!! That's definitely a capitulation

Scotland were down 31-0 against England in 2019, and that wasn't a capitulation.

[NeilyBroon]

I think tbh me and bsando are in the minority here.

I don't think it's likely Townsend will leave but I think we need fresh eyes, someone with experience outwith the SRU. Someone who has taken on big teams at club or international. We don't currently have that in our coaching set up who does barring Tandy and Pieter de Villiers. Townsend has done a good job recently but it's become clear, like it was with gatland and Wales, things have got stale and ideas are in short supply.

I don't think we need to break the bank if we end up in the situation where we need a new coach, I think there's enough coaching talent out there who want a new test. Quite who, I don't know, maybe it's pie in the sky but we do need more immediate change as well as structural evolution.

[RDW]

I'd agree that sacking Townsend isn't likely the answer, but I don't know what is. I like the idea of shaking up the coaching group, particularly the forwards.

I also wonder if it is too 'nice' an environment. All the training videos released are full of the coaches praising every little move and telling them how good a job they're doing - Peter Horne in particular who seems to be #1 cheerleader. This is of course a gross generalisation from a very limit training video but does paint a picture.

But finally as I've said many many times before - it's remarkable we even keep up as a rugby nation never mind aspire to win things. Based on resources, player base, youth output and finances there's no way we should even compete at the highest level. And that certainly was shown in this game. What can we realistic aspire towards is a question the SRU top brass need to think about for the next WC cycle.

[George Carlin]

To be clear, I don't ever recommend getting rid of anyone unless there is a better alternative who has already accepted the terms.

I also don't think that they will sack Toonie but he will need to decide whether he can continue as head coach. He is a proud guy and a team player and so it's not the wildest notion I have ever heard. Could he dig his heels in and force Dodson to sack him and buy out the remaining contract term? Of course. Playing chicken with your boss is never the best idea, however and Gregor needs to think about what's next.

I don't agree, incidentally, that the results from this tournament were always factored in and it didn't ever matter what they were. It wasn't the defeats that were so bad here, it was the manner of them and the poor management of the players in letting them shoot their mouths off before the game and lose their heads during it. This changes things.

I also don't agree that we wouldn't be an attractive prospect for the head coach of a pro franchise who wanted to step up to the test game.

[George Carlin]

The reason that Townsend has to go is because 1. He clearly cannot make the team any better than he has and 2. Without a new senior coach with new perspectives, the younger players in the squad are going to be badly damaged by the mental load of having capitulated so completely against other teams and having no reason to believe the next Tier 1 games will be any different.

The problem is mental as much as physical now. We need another plan in addition to ‘go wide fast’ because once teams structure their defense accordingly we have nothing else to try - Tom English is 100% right.

Did we capitulate? Really? I'll have to watch it again but on first viewing I thought we showed a lot of fight. We just got handed a hard lesson from a much better team. I think there is a recurrent issue around believing our own hype though. We need to manage the mental load differently, but as a player if you can't handle taking a lesson then maybe rugby isn't for you. Ireland are playing a different game, psychologically. They are streets ahead. Look at the way Sheehan reacted to being pushed over the advertising hoarding. He just walked away. Incredible restraint. Contrast that with Ollie Smith, who really deserves to be dropped for a while for his trip.

Nothing in the last 24hours was a revelation about Townsend. If the board are going to fork out £1.5m to buy him out now, then they should be outside selling matchday programmes rather than running a professional national org.  

We were 26-0 down by halftime!! That's definitely a capitulation

Scotland were down 31-0 against England in 2019, and that wasn't a capitulation.

That wasn't how the game ended up though.

[EST]

To be clear, I don't ever recommend getting rid of anyone unless there is a better alternative who has already accepted the terms.

I also don't think that they will sack Toonie but he will need to decide whether he can continue as head coach. He is a proud guy and a team player and so it's not the wildest notion I have ever heard. Could he dig his heels in and force Dodson to sack him and buy out the remaining contract term? Of course. Playing chicken with your boss is never the best idea, however and Gregor needs to think about what's next.

I don't agree, incidentally, that the results from this tournament were always factored in and it didn't ever matter what they were. It wasn't the defeats that were so bad here, it was the manner of them and the poor management of the players in letting them shoot their mouths off before the game and lose their heads during it. This changes things.

I also don't agree that we wouldn't be an attractive prospect for the head coach of a pro franchise who wanted to step up to the test game.

I think this is the most important point here, it’s not the manner of the defeat but how abjectly we played in both of the big games in the group, in truth neither team had to get out of third gear. Once our plan A didn’t work, we completely ran out of ideas - I’m afraid that’s not acceptable and it’s on Gregor. He has had a a lot of time in charge of the national team, with multiple iterations of coaching teams - yes we have had some good one off wins in that time, but in the 4 big matches at the world cups he’s been in charge of we haven’t even remotely turnedup. I also think there is an entitled nature to the team - the comments before the game, the trip by smith, never taking the points on offer and the insistence of only playing one way that borders on arrogance. I genuinely do think he’s taken us as far as he can, yes we will always struggle against the best teams but I think some new perspectives are required.

[NeilyBroon]

I don't know how we'd be if VC was still in charge but one thing he always had that Toonie hasn't ever had was a good way of keeping the players grounded.

Maybe Toonie should've stepped it up and taken them boar hunting in the Alps.

[Heuer27]

I said it earlier in the chat, if you play the same players with the same tactics against the same teams, invariably you are going to get the same result.
It suggests to me that the coaches have ran out of ideas on how to deal with the big power teams and maybe a fresh set of eyes would be beneficial.
If Scotland had gone down swinging and being competitive like Japan have just done then I don’t think anyone would be suggesting a change of coach.
Most of us accepted that if would be a bit of a fools errand to expect to turn over either of these teams.
It’s the manner of the defeats that have disappointed me and I suspect others . There was a real lack of intensity from Scotland in both games especially yesterday after we gave up the chance of points and walked away from the 22 empty handed.
The Irish marched up the field and punished weak defending like we couldn’t. I turned to my better half after the second Irish try and said game over.  Unfortunately so did the Scotland players
No consolation try in the second half could make up for that mental collapse.

[Hazel Sapling]

The performance against Ireland was disappointing but tend to agree that Townsend won't be forced out. There are no obvious replacements available and the cost is likely to prove prohibitive. Where we are at the Lions tour is likely the next decision point.

The review has to focus on the why we did not make it. My initial questions are

- It was a bad draw in terms of coming up against two teams who play a style we struggle with and have the quality to do it at an extremely high level. SA vs Ireland could very well be the final or both could get knocked out in the quarters. How do we combat that style effectively?

- Our set-piece, in particular the line-out is not up to scratch. Is it a player quality problem or is it a coaching issue? Is the coaching issue at the club level and/or the international level?

- We struggled heavily at the breakdown against SA and Ireland. Is that a structural issue in our gameplan? It is a lack of joined up thinking playing a "slower" SH in Price rather than Horne who gets the ball out? Is our clearout coaching failing?

- Since the last World Cup (and I know Covid put paid to a number of fixtures), according to google we have played our summer and autumn internationals against: SA x 1, Australia x 1 + 1 outside of window, Argentina x 4, NZ x 1, France x 2
Georgia x 2, Tonga x 1 outside of window, Japan x 1, Fiji x 1, Italy x 1

That is 10 games against T1 competition and six against T1b/T2 sides. Only four were against current top four sides in the course of four years outside of the Six Nations which is clearly not enough.

How do we get more fixtures againsts the T1's? Would restoring Scotland A for summer tours to play Pacific nations, North America and Eastern Euros help prepare the younger players to step up?

Questions need to be asked about the u20s and wider professional set-up as well to figure out how to match the financial strength and playing depth of Ireland/NZ (economically and population size wise similar nations) but not going to dig into those.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Gregor isn’t getting fired nor it he going to walk away from the job, I’m afraid that’s straw clutching lads. Dodson had a chance to show a bit more ambition before he handed him an extension but chose the lower risk but zero room to grow option in sticking with Gregor. It is what it is and the goal now for the next few years for us it to try and keep pace with a resurgent England and Wales and forget all thoughts of realistically being able to mix it with the big sides

[sensisball]

Thought Tandy was going back Wales after the WC?
In the post match Toonie said there was no point in kicking the penalties as we were always going to need several tries to win, as evidenced by the half time score.

To my mind that is naive in the extreme. Any team can be put under pressure if to keep the scoreboard ticking. If instead you simply carry multiple times with no variety against one of the world's best defences you can't really be surprised when you leave their 22 with nothing.

In the last run of games against Ireland we have been outscored in tries by a ratio of 3 to 1
To think that somehow we were going to score tries from catch and drives early doors, when their defence was fresh, was childish.

You take the points and go again. To turn down the kicks is lunacy.

It was like watching Glasgow try to beat Munster in the URC semi.

[NeilyBroon]

Thought Tandy was going back Wales after the WC?
In the post match Toonie said there was no point in kicking the penalties as we were always going to need several tries to win, as evidenced by the half time score.

To my mind that is naive in the extreme. Any team can be put under pressure if to keep the scoreboard ticking. If instead you simply carry multiple times with no variety against one of the world's best defences you can't really be surprised when you leave their 22 with nothing.

In the last run of games against Ireland we have been outscored in tries by a ratio of 3 to 1
To think that somehow we were going to score tries from catch and drives early doors, when their defence was fresh, was childish.

You take the points and go again. To turn down the kicks is lunacy.

It was like watching Glasgow try to beat Munster in the URC semi.

Absolutely this. You start with the scoreboard, then heap the pressure on. Its how Ireland have got us... Every. Single. Time.

[bsando]

Thought Tandy was going back Wales after the WC?
In the post match Toonie said there was no point in kicking the penalties as we were always going to need several tries to win, as evidenced by the half time score.

To my mind that is naive in the extreme. Any team can be put under pressure if to keep the scoreboard ticking. If instead you simply carry multiple times with no variety against one of the world's best defences you can't really be surprised when you leave their 22 with nothing.

In the last run of games against Ireland we have been outscored in tries by a ratio of 3 to 1
To think that somehow we were going to score tries from catch and drives early doors, when their defence was fresh, was childish.

You take the points and go again. To turn down the kicks is lunacy.

It was like watching Glasgow try to beat Munster in the URC semi.

https://www.theoffsideline.com/steve-tandy-john-dalziel-and-pieter-de-villiers-agree-contract-extensions/?amp=1

The whole coaching team is locked in for a few more years. And I agree with you, going for the tries so early on didn’t help our cause. Ireland must have been delighted.

[bsando]

Let’s rewind. Give or take the following side..

Schoeman, Turner, Fagerson
Cummings, Gilchrist
Ritchie, Watson
Dempsey
White, Russell
Redpath, Harris
VDM, Steyn,
Kinghorn

Ashman, Sutherland, Sebastian, Skinner, Fagerson, Horne, Healy, Graham

Do we perform better? Or do Ireland still rip us a new one? Mcgeechan talked about fronting up to Ireland as the only way to go about it in the first half. Had we gone down the McGeechan route and trusted our lions to defend, could we have been in a better place at half time?

[NeilyBroon]

The performance against Ireland was disappointing but tend to agree that Townsend won't be forced out. There are no obvious replacements available and the cost is likely to prove prohibitive. Where we are at the Lions tour is likely the next decision point.

The review has to focus on the why we did not make it. My initial questions are

- It was a bad draw in terms of coming up against two teams who play a style we struggle with and have the quality to do it at an extremely high level. SA vs Ireland could very well be the final or both could get knocked out in the quarters. How do we combat that style effectively?

- Our set-piece, in particular the line-out is not up to scratch. Is it a player quality problem or is it a coaching issue? Is the coaching issue at the club level and/or the international level?

- We struggled heavily at the breakdown against SA and Ireland. Is that a structural issue in our gameplan? It is a lack of joined up thinking playing a "slower" SH in Price rather than Horne who gets the ball out? Is our clearout coaching failing?

- Since the last World Cup (and I know Covid put paid to a number of fixtures), according to google we have played our summer and autumn internationals against: SA x 1, Australia x 1 + 1 outside of window, Argentina x 4, NZ x 1, France x 2
Georgia x 2, Tonga x 1 outside of window, Japan x 1, Fiji x 1, Italy x 1

That is 10 games against T1 competition and six against T1b/T2 sides. Only four were against current top four sides in the course of four years outside of the Six Nations which is clearly not enough.

How do we get more fixtures againsts the T1's? Would restoring Scotland A for summer tours to play Pacific nations, North America and Eastern Euros help prepare the younger players to step up?

Questions need to be asked about the u20s and wider professional set-up as well to figure out how to match the financial strength and playing depth of Ireland/NZ (economically and population size wise similar nations) but not going to dig into those.

All very pertinent points and hopefully these questions will be raised in DodsoGas Murrayfield.

To my mind:

- We had a bad draw as a result of poor results even when it was common knowledge when the draw was. We need now to be aiming for the top 8 draw for every world cup, whenever it's due. The writing was on the wall in 2019.

- I think the forwards must be a coaching issue. Its really disappointing as I rated Dalziel as a coach before but our forwards have definitely been on a downward trajectory since he came on board. This is where we really miss Dan McFarland as he seemed to have a much better grip on it. Maybe we need to get Richie Gray (coach) back in on a consulting basis? Some of the best forwards play I've seen of this generation was with him on board.

- Good question. I guess start winning at world cups or 6 nations? Or at least give them a game every time. A France New Zealand series sells because there's the thrill of a potential upset either way. A Scotland NZ series does not. Ireland forced their way to the top table. Scotland have to do the same if we want the same experience.

- I can't bear thinking about the U20s. They truly are not in a good place. I expect we need to come up with something more substantial than where we are. A team in the super 6 is a good start point, but maybe we treat them as our A team and transition then straight to pro international games. They may get hammered by the Pacific islanders etc but it'd be the best learning for them. Either that or we just need to bite the bullet and create a third pro team somehow. Less likely.

RDW I see your point about us punching above our weight but we have a group of players with bags of potential that appears to have been wasted (this is of course entirely subjective but if you consider our results outside of tournaments we really should be better in them, even if we don't win!). This has always been a bugbear with Toonie as he seems to have taken us through his learning experience, much like if you just gave a freshly graduated pilot the keys to a 747 and yet he still can't land in Dublin.

[sensisball]

Certainly think that the team didn't have defence in their minds. Toonies mantra of" we score more tries than them" seemed to be ringing in their ears at the start. No line speed in defence and turning down kicks contributed to a very, very poor display.

Would the likes of Harris and Steyn made a difference in our defensive efforts? Well they couldn't have done any worse.

Would we have won? Probably not but at least we could have made a match of it and actually force Ireland to work for their win.

[jimbopip]

Lads...has anyone mentioned that we won the second half yesterday?
There were long (ish) spells in the first where we had them on the ropes.They soaked up the blows and in true rope a dope style put us on the canvas.
In short, they played like the best team in the world.
I don't think Toonie will go; FES couldn't accept the pay cut, GC wouldn't cope with the commute and Flounder has another 5 years before he can leave Botany Bay.

On the bright side, our players should be well rested by the start of the URC season.

[RDW]

Let’s rewind. Give or take the following side..

Schoeman, Turner, Fagerson
Cummings, Gilchrist
Ritchie, Watson
Dempsey
White, Russell
Redpath, Harris
VDM, Steyn,
Kinghorn

Ashman, Sutherland, Sebastian, Skinner, Fagerson, Horne, Healy, Graham

Do we perform better? Or do Ireland still rip us a new one? Mcgeechan talked about fronting up to Ireland as the only way to go about it in the first half. Had we gone down the McGeechan route and trusted our lions to defend, could we have been in a better place at half time?

Would certainly be interesting to see us have a defensive starting team with game breakers on the bench. That's the gameplan I mentioned yesterday, a different approach to try and beat these teams.

In particular we were greatly exposed in the wide channels.

We almost certainly still would have lost mind!

[Mcsweens]

We should just go full banter and start tossing the pill about with chuggsy

[RDW]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67047942

Grumpy uncle Tom saying it as it is as always!

[RDW]

Meanwhile, Scotland have lost to Ireland and South Africa and gone out.

Fiji just lost to Portugal and are in a quarter final

[NeilyBroon]

I think this is the best it could've been under Toonie. I guess it could've been worse under another coach. I think it probably could've been better though... Pragmatism is possible alongside sheer lunacy.


We'll never know because two world cups have been and gone, our players have never got out of the group and as grumpy Tom says this is it now!

[bsando]

I liked the way we’re playing when Tandy came in. We were being praised for our defence by all the pundits including Tom the grinch. The balance was seemingly better but I recall saying in here during the warm ups ‘why are we playing the same way we did last World
Cup?’. The scattyness of Scotland on theee big occasions is pretty frustrating.

[BigGee]

Just read an article in the Times by Mark Palmer.

Toonie does not sound like he wants to go anywhere.

He is talking about a review and looking at the coaching team, mainly about simplyj g the attack coaching from two down to one.

It would not surprise me to see Pete Horne come into that role on a permanent basis and Moar maybe dropping into a club role, more likely with Edinburgh.

[tigertattie]

Well it’s all north vs south in the QFs

I’d not be surprised if we see an all SH set up in both semis.

World rugby is rigged. Rigged I tells ye.

[EWT Spoons]

Really disappointing after that game.  To be clear I always expected to lose, my only hope for the game was that we’d give Ireland something to think about, but by the 45th min they were already planning for the qtrs.

Toonie won’t go.  Pre the WC we expected to lose to SA and Ire, and likely finish 3rd.  Which is exactly what played out.  If Toonie has KPIs in his contract, finishing 3rd in the group would likely be a requirement, with 1st or 2nd a stretch goal, so he’s unlikely to be at any risk of being let go.

Also, whilst blood pressure is running high just now, by the time the 6n comes round, most of us will have moved on from the WC and if he does reasonably well in the 6n then we’ll mostly be happy with Toonie staying in place.  I think when he signed the contract extension after doing well in the 6n the consensus was it was the right move.

I also don’t think we are punching above our weight from a competitiveness point of view.  There are only a handful of nations that take rugby seriously, we beat the nations who we should and sometimes beat the ones in and around us, and rarely/never beat the top (looking at you NZ).

[EST]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/67047942

Grumpy uncle Tom saying it as it is as always!

Not pleasant reading at all, but alas I think most of what he is saying is true - I think we have likely already seen the high-water mark of this team.

The SRUs main mission over the next 10 years should be to increase participation, that is the foundation for all the high-performance stuff at the top of the pyramid - without that we will never have sustained success.

[Tramptastic]

There was something that the ozzies were lamenting no longer happens in their system - it used to be that they identified singular talents and those players were paired with an elite player i.e. an international to learn from all through the season. This is how the likes of Hooper, Pocock, Foley, Cooper and others were brought through.

If we are talking about crud player pathways then surely this can be a part of the solution - can our U20s guys spend as much time as possible with their senior counterparts? surely it wouldnt cost any extra and it would help raise their expectation of what standards are required. I think it was Tom English that was saying the Irish lads are all out coaching at the schools systems constantly and filtering their knowledge and experience to the next gen even on a 1 to 1 level.

Aside from the wider issues in Scottish rugby...

We lost, and continually lose, the contact area. Whether that's carrying into contact, the tackle, the ruck, whatever it is we come off 2nd best. There's little to no aggression at ruck time which used to be a hallmark of a good Scotland side. As someone further up the chain alluded to, the SRU should be throwing cash at Richie Gray (coach). Unfortunately, in a recent interview, it didnt sound like he was clamouring to get back in the Scotland set up. He was very loyal to Cotter and seems put out by what happened there. Toonie does need to admit that coaching contact skills is its on speciality these days. The Irish have a contact coach and so do the saffers. Everything seems to think these guys are leviathians and scotland are only wee - pack weights differ by a couple kilos at worst. So. Its the coaching. Not genetics or gym work.

[bsando]

Time for Dodson to make some big boy decisions. I’m not liking what I’m hearing in the press from Townsend.

[NeilyBroon]

Time for Dodson to make some big boy decisions. I’m not liking what I’m hearing in the press from Townsend.

If they're sensible they'd have put clauses in place.

This is the SRU so they've probably included an honorary payment scheme like the prime minister of £100k a year

[Highland Shaun]

I have made my opinions on Gregor very clear and am not changing my mind so he still has my backing, just. I can't and will not accept anymore inept performances like Saturday though as that would make continuously backing him much harder because I simply do not accept performances and results like that! He also has to stop picking his favourites and start picking on form rather than reputation so hopefully we see signs of the start of a rebuilding process come the 6N with players like Matthews and Hutchinson in if their form warrants it.

If the unthinkable happens and Dodson et al do pull the trigger then I'd be more than happy to take Jamie Joseph though that would be highly unlikely; the role would certainly come far to early for Franco Smith that's for sure!

[NeilyBroon]

Tbf shaun of all the things I could criticise Toonie for picking favourites isn't one, certainly not recently! He's clearly been trying for consistency in combos, which is fine if you have a variable game plan. But we just haven't.

Whether that's player led or not I'm not sure but I think it's become a recurring theme under toonies tenure. Its like he gets a pair of pocket kings and goes all in on the same every time only to be confronted with a flush or run or pocket aces. Whilst it may work for a fair few games, it doesn't work against the strongest opposition.

I dunno though, Toonie won't go so others are right that the point is moot, but I also feel he won't keep us at number 5 and we're just depending on others being crap to stay in the top 8.

[bsando]

Time for Dodson to make some big boy decisions. I’m not liking what I’m hearing in the press from Townsend.

If they're sensible they'd have put clauses in place.

This is the SRU so they've probably included an honorary payment scheme like the prime minister of £100k a year

Think you’ve nailed it.

Has Steve diamond gone? Can we get him back for the debrief?

[NeilyBroon]

Time for Dodson to make some big boy decisions. I’m not liking what I’m hearing in the press from Townsend.

If they're sensible they'd have put clauses in place.

This is the SRU so they've probably included an honorary payment scheme like the prime minister of £100k a year

Think you’ve nailed it.

Has Steve diamond gone? Can we get him back for the debrief?

Diamond has gone, as far as I'm aware Mallinder is still performance manager or whatever his job title is these days. I think whatever happens we've backed ourselves into a corner by keeping toonie on longer than we should have. His contract should have been up at the end of the WC, not half way through the next cycle.

[EST]

I don't think there is any danger of Toonie being given the boot, but if his contract was up now it would be the natural time to look elsewhere - he has had a very decent length of time with the squad and multiple opportunities to refresh the coaching ticket.

With the group of players at his disposal he has scored about par for me - yes some good one off results, but we had a brilliant chance to win the 6N in 2021 and fluffed our lines and at the world cup he has presided over 4 complete non-performances.

[Oakdene]

If you're going to replace him before the next RWC then now is the time to do it. Give someone a full 4 year cycle & allow them to work their patterns etc in. There's a fair few players in the current squad who won't be there in Australia.

[NeilyBroon]

Agreed, and I can't see Toonie beyond 2026. This is where it makes no sense.

He's done okay as EST said but tbh I think he struggled to get us to work as a unit. I think cotter was perhaps better at that but as I said earlier, we'll never know whether he'd have been any good in the long run.

Time for someone new I think. The failures at both WCs and 6Ns all have a commonality. Toonie just does not have a plan B, despite having a team who are capable of that. If that means grinding out penalties rather than scoring tries that's fine against the big 4. The only team above us we've done well against I'd say is France but that's more to do with our similar play styles. Since getting Shaun Edwards France have developed an edge, which is what we really need.

I don't care if it's a marquee coach or someone less famous, as long as they can drag the best out of the players and get them to work as a cohesive unit then I'm all for change.

It won't happen though!

[Oakdene]

There'll be a post WV review & let's be honest you've probably finished where most thought you would in the pool. The issue for me, looking in from the outside, was the manner of the defeat to Ireland & that's where I can't see why keeping GT on is a good idea. Fair enough if you were within 7 & gallantly bowed out but the performance was nowhere near what it should have been.

[jimbopip]

OK fellas, here's my unscientific 100% fact free tuppence worth.

Looking at the WC quarterfinalists;
Wales, Argentina, Fiji, England I think we beat all of them more often than not.
France: pretty much 50/50 with them recently.
All Blacks, Boks/Ireland; we're pretty much guaranteed to lose against them.
Which is why we're ranked no5 in the world. This isn't a cause for hair shirts and self-flagellation.

However, looking at Georgia, Uruguay, Portugal, Samoa....they all failed to make the knockout stages but all will go home with a sense of pride in that, at least once, they played to their potential. we don't really have that feeling, do we?

England and Wales might just power their way into the semi finals. I would be very surprised if either made it into the final but they might.
Given how low they must have felt before the tournament the Welsh fans must be buzzing....but they are just playing Warrenball.v3;  Same Shoite Different Squad. When they meet one of the top four it'll all come crumbling down faster than a Liz Truss premiership.
England fans, certainly the ones I speak to, are ultra grumpy because they are playing less rugby than Wales. Given how much greater their resources are that takes some doing. England face the prospect of making the semi final and being miserable as sin.

Being Scottish isn't always shoite, it just feels meh sometimes. There's the new team motto.

[bsando]

No option should be off the table. Forget contract durations and the toughness of the opposition in Scotland’s RWC pool. If that ends in the SRU retaining the entire coaching group then they’ve got to have a very honest debrief and work out a suitable path going forwards. That doesn’t mean concocting a plan to topple Ireland but using these big losses as a means to fixing the flaws in the Scottish game plan.

[tigertattie]

I’m still not seeing any names of coaches who are better than Toonie, are available and are willing to come to us.

I know being punted out hurts but we’re still 5th in the world and by my calculations we’d only drop to 7th at worst come the end of the tournament.

None of us is had us down as getting out of the group (realistically) so why are we back at chucking the baby out with the bath water?

[Highland Shaun]

I listened to the radio scotland rugby podcast last night (Sundays hour long one) and as per Tom English was his grumpy old self but one thing that got to me was one of the pundits (I don't think it was Andy Burke) mentioned that we need to find a different way to play other than just wide, wide, wide but we don't have another style so what style do they want us to play!!??

Also I am also concerned with what Gregor said about hoping his mid 30s stars don't retire because this coming 6N should be his opportunity to start rebuilding this squad ahead of the next world cup because in no way are these players going to be around in 4yrs time!

I also think that next year could be crucial to Gregor because a poor 6N, summer and autumn series will see lots more fans calling for his head more than are just now!

[NeilyBroon]

6th 6 nations in charge will be the charm eh?


I reckon he'll be gone by April.

[Oakdene]

I read a stat somewhere, I'm not sure on it's validity but am sure someone on here can refute it if required, that Scotland have only ever beaten 2 Tier 1 sides in a Rugby World Cup tournament. The victories being Italy in 2007 & Ireland in 1991.

[Mcsweens]

I read a stat somewhere, I'm not sure on it's validity but am sure someone on here can refute it if required, that Scotland have only ever beaten 2 Tier 1 sides in a Rugby World Cup tournament. The victories being Italy in 2007 & Ireland in 1991.

In fairness, however, we've never played Wales in a World Cup

[George Carlin]

I honestly think Ireland will take the whole bauble if they can just keep it steady and most players play to their potential. That's a side that not only expect to win, they have effectively forgotten how to lose.

[EWT Spoons]

I listened to the radio scotland rugby podcast last night (Sundays hour long one) and as per Tom English was his grumpy old self but one thing that got to me was one of the pundits (I don't think it was Andy Burke) mentioned that we need to find a different way to play other than just wide, wide, wide but we don't have another style so what style do they want us to play!!??

Also I am also concerned with what Gregor said about hoping his mid 30s stars don't retire because this coming 6N should be his opportunity to start rebuilding this squad ahead of the next world cup because in no way are these players going to be around in 4yrs time!

I also think that next year could be crucial to Gregor because a poor 6N, summer and autumn series will see lots more fans calling for his head more than are just now!

On the wide wide, I assume that's the point, we have plan A and if plan A isn't working then try plan A again but really really hard.  South Africa and Ireland both worked out how to beat us fairly handily playing that way.  It's entertaining to watch but doing that alone won't win us anything.

On the over 30s players, I agree we should start looking towards rebuilding, but we also need some experienced players around to guide the lads coming into the team.  The 6n is a major rugby tournament, we can't write it off as a development tournament, the ones who will be around in 4yrs need to be eased into the team.

[BigGee]

A few players may retire internationally after this WC.

Nelly, GG and RG spring to mind, I would not be surprised if they gave played their last games for Scotland now.

A few others, Harris, Price and Turner amongst them probably won't be there but it is not clear and will depend on what they feel they have left in the tank, as well as who is pushing them for their places.

A good amount of the squad will still be around though and the swusd for the next run out in 4 yesrs will evolve itself over thst time I am sure.

Let these players have a rest now, though Redpsth and Russell are already back training with Bath, and whe they have clesred their minds they can decide whether to play on or not.

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