Re: England still winning the RWC at a canter - The RWC phase

by mountain man Sun 17 Sep 2023, 9:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

Assuming and currently it is quite a big assumption England get through group I can't see them winning QF against whoever they face. Bloody hopeless

by doctor_grey Mon 18 Sep 2023, 3:18 pm

mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote:Why? Are Japan a bad scrummaging team??? Id say no they arent.

And NO team wins every bloody scrum these days anyway!

No Japan not a bad team but I think we're setting bar low if that's it. I hope I'm wrong but I thought last night was shocking, really bad. At one point I seriously thought England could have lost match.

OK conditions were poor and pitch cutting up etc but I'm struggling to be optimistic despite BP win. Dawson(!) says in his article that 2nd half was best England have played under Borthwick, think that shows just how bad they were.

Reading through today's comments, as well as a few from yesterday, and I agree with you and, yes, the bar is low. And I didn't think there was all that much that was terribly great yesterday. And the big issue is the same thing that has plagued England for a long time now, preceding but continuing under Borthwick which is decision making. Against Argentina some of what would have been mindless grubbers to nowhere Ford had taken as drops. And that helped England gain the momentum, such as it was, and not let it go. Ford couldn't do it against Japan? That is either a coaching issue or a Ford issue, neither is good.

I did think the defense was pretty good and, to be fair, most of the time when a team can prevent any tries from being scored, it is going to be a pretty good day (except Argentina against England). For the rest, not so much. I thought Daly coming in looking for work was good and added a little variety. I thought Marcus Smith coming on added some sorely needed energy which helped lift the team near the end.

by lostinwales Mon 18 Sep 2023, 3:35 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:Nick Evan's has summed up the approach of the current top four test sides.
Squeeze set piece,
Strangle with kicking game &
Suffocate with defence.

For reference France kicked 44 times in their win over NZ. You can perhaps debate when and how they kicked but they did kick the leather off the ball.

But you struggle to do one without the other. England's kicking isn't necessarily always bad in itself but the opposition know that is what is going to happen and can plan accordingly.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 18 Sep 2023, 4:19 pm

I understand the kicking, I just don't think it was that good, too obvious and often gave Japan's open field runners a lot of space, as we saw a few weeks ago, do that to Fiji or a similar team and they will tear gaping great holes in our defence.

I know Japan were tired, but the last fifteen minutes or so, was completely different from what had gone on before, Lawrence made more yards in one burst than Manu did all match, because he didn't try and go through but went around. Smith brought on creativity, pace and did things differently and not like an automaton.

I really would like to see him get some more time on the park.

I am not sure that the handling was as bad as is been made out, in both games the opposition has had worse problems than we have, so I think it must be the atmosphere and humidity making the ball slippery

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Sep 2023, 5:05 pm

So the main positives going into the 6 nations could be we play different players with a different set of tactics.

by mountain man Mon 18 Sep 2023, 5:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the main positives going into the 6 nations could be we play different players with a different set of tactics.

That's about size of it.

by carpet baboon Mon 18 Sep 2023, 6:27 pm

So England what do you do now about the Farrell situation?
Give him the next two games to get him up to match speed?
Start him in the QF? (Let's assume you have Fiji)
Play him at 12?
Is borthwick brave enough to not include him?

My personal opinion is I don't see him making the backline any better at 10 and a lot worse at 12

by Collapse2005 Mon 18 Sep 2023, 9:54 pm

The amount of handling errors in the England game by both teams was crazy. Are sweaty balls a big problem in France at this time of year?

by Geordie Mon 18 Sep 2023, 10:14 pm

carpet baboon wrote:So England what do you do now about the Farrell situation?
Give him the next two games to get him up to match speed?
Start him in the QF? (Let's assume you have Fiji)
Play him at 12?
Is borthwick brave enough to not include him?

My personal opinion is I don't see him making the backline any better at 10 and a lot worse at 12

Yes...he has before

by lostinwales Mon 18 Sep 2023, 10:21 pm

Marler

Worth pointing out with all the fuss about 'using his head' was the lovely little pop pass he gave Ludlam for the first try. With two try assists he had a good game on Sunday.

by doctor_grey Mon 18 Sep 2023, 10:24 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:The amount of handling errors in the England game by both teams was crazy. Are sweaty balls a big problem in France at this time of year?

A team from England where it rains 400 days per year and people don't know how to handle a wet ball?

by Heaf Tue 19 Sep 2023, 12:00 am

Yeah but sweaty balls are a whole different problem - maybe a bit of talc in the underpants might help ...

by yappysnap Tue 19 Sep 2023, 2:45 am

I'd keep it as it is, Ford starting and Smith on the Bench.

Farrel comes in if Ford gets injured and starts at 10.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 19 Sep 2023, 4:30 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:The amount of handling errors in the England game by both teams was crazy. Are sweaty balls a big problem in France at this time of year?
A team from England where it rains 400 days per year and people don't know how to handle a wet ball?

Ford spoke about that after the match

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/09/18/rugby-world-cup-problem-france-sweaty-balls-handling-errors/

The Rugby World Cup’s biggest problem? Sweaty balls
Handling errors have been a feature of the World Cup, especially in Nice where there have been 22.5 per match

The late summer heatwave in France has dialled up the humidity and made the official Gilbert match ball extremely difficult to handle in some matches during the opening rounds of the Rugby World Cup, with players explaining that the ball has at times resembled “a bar of soap”.

Late-night kick-offs have been cited as a factor, with the humidity increasing during the evenings and therefore increasing the amount of sweat and dew on the ball, particularly in the south of France.

George Ford, the England fly-half, acknowledged after his side’s win over Japan in Nice that sweaty conditions had made maintaining possession with ball in hand a trickier task.

“You’ve got to understand how difficult it is out there,” Ford said. “It may not look it from the stands or on TV, but it’s actually more difficult than if it was throwing it down - because of the grease and the sweat on the ball.”

But after moist conditions challenged England in first Marseille and then Nice, their remaining two matches in the pool stages are set to be played on France’s north coast in Lille, closer to their Le Touquet training base and in cooler, dryer climes.

“Maybe it will make a huge difference,” Ford added. “We don’t know yet but for the first two games, it’s been like a bar of soap that ball at times.”

There have been more handling errors on average so far at the Stade de Nice, 22.5 per match, where England played on Sunday night than at any other ground. Stade de Marseille, the scene for England’s gritty victory over Argentina, has produced 19.5 handling errors per match, with Argentina largely responsible for that number following 16 in that game.

One World Cup assistant coach informed Telegraph Sport that the humidity had meant the balls were “travelling well in the air off the boot” but that they were “harder to handle” during the 9pm kick-offs, citing the effects of both sweat and dew on the ball.

Both of England’s matches so far have been in that late slot, when the humidity has often risen to a daily high to make conditions that little bit harder for players under the lights. Their next two matches against Chile and Samoa kick off at 5.45pm local time.

Jonny Wilkinson, the former England fly-half who spent several years playing in France with Toulon, addressed the problems posed by playing that late during ITV’s half-time coverage of the game against Japan. Wilkinson compared the England-Japan fixture to Fiji’s win over Australia earlier in the day in Saint-Etienne, where there were notably fewer unforced handling errors and knock-ons largely stemmed from physical tackles, such as Eroni Mawi’s hit on young Wallabies fly-half Carter Gordon.

“It’s a night-time game, whereas the Fiji-Australia game was a lot dryer,” Wilkinson said. “I’ve been in those conditions in France, I know what it’s like kicking off at 9 o’clock at night compared to in the afternoon.”

Two assistant coaches informed Telegraph Sport that the actual grip on the balls is fine, with any issues only blamed on the conditions. Teams get their hands on matchday balls for the first time during the captain’s run at the stadium the day before when going through their final training session. This is the first time the balls are “kicked in”, meaning the balls are close to brand new in terms of their level of grip by the time kick-off arrives the following day.

The average temperature and humidity levels across France are also expected to drop next weekend compared with the last few days, potentially making life easier for teams to avoid handling errors during evening matches including Ireland’s game against South Africa at the Stade de France in Paris, plus Australia’s must-win meeting with Wales in Lyon.

by mountain man Tue 19 Sep 2023, 7:03 am

Conditions were tricky for sure, Lawes was soaking in sweat before game even started so handling really tough.

However, that doesn't account for the multiple times good possession kicked away in Jpan half, that was purely tactics and it certainly looks like that's what they'd done regardless.

Anyway, that's over. Game won. Move on.

As for Farrell, I'd be really surprised if he isn't in team. Definitely be in 23 and I fully expect him to start. Ford obviously key for Borthwick so why risk him getting a knock in what will be a certain win against Chile.

I would like to see some changes in back line, both players and positionally but not overly hopeful.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Sep 2023, 7:56 am

Crap conditions certainly, but our tactic is to always kick the ball away and play for territory. The last 2 games the teams we've played haven't taken advantage in terms of tries but I think we're kidding ourselves to suggest that that was purely down to defence. The struggle for a Borthwick team is going to be a team that can score in 7s is simply going to walk away with games with no chance to get back into it.

Interesting question on what happens next with the overseas players etc. The stories about 2 games ago suggest half the RFU are ready for questions on the leadership. Does sound as if there is no money in the pot and there will be a vastly reduced offer to the PRL, and I'm not sure if that will mean the RFU have to give up more to the clubs in terms of protecting them from foreign bids for players or if it goes the other way. Does sound as if the RFU have put all their eggs into the Borthwick basket as well, as was suggested by a lot on here. My only question is the balance of paying off that contract if he doesn't resign vs the prospect of fewer and fewer supporters turning up at Twickenham.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 19 Sep 2023, 8:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Crap conditions certainly, but our tactic is to always kick the ball away and play for territory. The last 2 games the teams we've played haven't taken advantage in terms of tries but I think we're kidding ourselves to suggest that that was purely down to defence. The struggle for a Borthwick team is going to be a team that can score in 7s is simply going to walk away with games with no chance to get back into it.

Interesting question on what happens next with the overseas players etc. The stories about 2 games ago suggest half the RFU are ready for questions on the leadership. Does sound as if there is no money in the pot and there will be a vastly reduced offer to the PRL, and I'm not sure if that will mean the RFU have to give up more to the clubs in terms of protecting them from foreign bids for players or if it goes the other way. Does sound as if the RFU have put all their eggs into the Borthwick basket as well, as was suggested by a lot on here. My only question is the balance of paying off that contract if he doesn't resign vs the prospect of fewer and fewer supporters turning up at Twickenham.

I'm sure I heard the RFU financial package to the Premiership had actually went up by approx 4m???

Missed the game due to being in Lebanon for a wedding.......it'll be the semi-final games by the time I recover I think. I've read a lot of negativity on the thread but one stat stood out.....only 6 pens given away. That's roughly 13 given away in 2 games which is quite impressive, we'd regularly give that away in the 1st half most games.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 19 Sep 2023, 8:41 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Missed the game due to being in Lebanon for a wedding.......it'll be the semi-final games by the time I recover I think. I've read a lot of negativity on the thread but one stat stood out.....only 6 pens given away. That's roughly 13 given away in 2 games which is quite impressive, we'd regularly give that away in the 1st half most games.

I only caught the last 20 minutes, which is where we were comfortably in charge, and scoring, so it was a surprise to see just how negative people were on here, and in the instant reaction podcasts.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Sep 2023, 8:59 am

Give yourself a treat and watch the first 60!

by mountain man Tue 19 Sep 2023, 9:50 am

Watch first half, England were atrocious.

by Geordie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 10:38 am

mountain man wrote:Watch first half, England were atrocious.

And yet a Japan side finding their form couldnt get past us....

So imagine if we start getting better and better....

I think Japan will be Argentina.

by king_carlos Tue 19 Sep 2023, 10:39 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm sure I heard the RFU financial package to the Premiership had actually went up by approx 4m???

Missed the game due to being in Lebanon for a wedding.......it'll be the semi-final games by the time I recover I think. I've read a lot of negativity on the thread but one stat stood out.....only 6 pens given away. That's roughly 13 given away in 2 games which is quite impressive, we'd regularly give that away in the 1st half most games.

That's what I'd heard too. The current Professional Game Agreement ends July 2024. So there will be a new one from next season. Rumours are that the total value of it will go up despite it being split between 3 fewer shareholder clubs. Which feels indicative of the RFU knowing they can't have another club fail.

The money for that can presumably only come from cuts in the community game though. The RFU is forecast to make a loss for years ahead following the disastrous CVC deal that Sweeney led the negotiation of. Short term thinking at it's worst. Selling a reliable long term income (Six Nations revenues) for a one off payment that it would seem they've p***ed up the wall.

As said a few times I think wholesale reform is the only solution to the catastrophe that is now England's structures in men's RU. One board running the pro game (England team, Premiership, Championship and a predominantly U23s A-league), one board for the semi-pro game (Nat Leagues below the Championship) and one for the amateur/community game would be my call.

I haven't seen the game yet either. I was away for work over the weekend and things just quietening down today so will hopefully get a chance to see it tonight.

by mountain man Tue 19 Sep 2023, 10:45 am

Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:Watch first half, England were atrocious.

And yet a Japan side finding their form couldnt get past us....

So imagine if we start getting better and better....

I think Japan will be Argentina.

The fact Japan didn't score speaks of England defence and errors by Japan. Doesn't alter fact England were truly awful in first half.
I'm not sure why you seem to dispute this or defend the team.

Anyway as I said. Job done, game won so time to move. I only mentioned it again as a few said only saw last 20 and they couldn't understand why some of us were so critical.

Let's draw a line under maybe.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 19 Sep 2023, 10:46 am

England have been a disappointment for such a long time, my relief when we actually get a win crowds out the negativity.

All the arguments about how our uninspiring gameplan is likely to fail on first encounter with a competent team are well-taken. Still, this moment when we are not stepping on rakes is enjoyable for its rarity.

I've watched Japan a fair amount over the last few years. While they are not the team they were four years ago, they are capable of playing well. It looked to me like Joseph had targeted England as the big scalp to claim, rather than Argentina, so it's quite possible we saw them throw their best preparation at us at the weekend.

It makes a certain degree of sense, as England entered the World Cup with coaching turnover and a poor run of results. It's also early in the tournament, so Japan's squad would be relatively fresh. They also have a fair idea how Borthwick coaches a side, as he worked with them alongside Jones. Japan has beaten Argentina once, and never beaten England, so Joseph might have hoped he could once again deliver a history-making victory before he leaves his post, and returns to NZ.

by mountain man Tue 19 Sep 2023, 10:53 am

On another note I'm in Swansea and went to M&S cafe for breakfast and bumped into Dwayne Peel. Nice chap and taller than he looks on TV

by Geordie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 11:44 am

mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote:
mountain man wrote:Watch first half, England were atrocious.

And yet a Japan side finding their form couldnt get past us....

So imagine if we start getting better and better....

I think Japan will be Argentina.

The fact Japan didn't score speaks of England defence and errors by Japan. Doesn't alter fact England were truly awful in first half.
I'm not sure why you seem to dispute this or defend the team.

Anyway as I said. Job done, game won so time to move. I only mentioned it again as a few said only saw last 20 and they couldn't understand why some of us were so critical.

Let's draw a line under maybe.

Not defending a "bad" performance....it more about appreciating where we are. Dont forget the rebuilding was supposed to be AFTER this world cup...but Jones had got us so bad they sacked him.

I can see what they are doing in terms of reigning it in, trying to fix the basics and making us a hard team to beat...putting pressure on the opposition with kicks and playing territory etc as ALL the top teams do.

Did the players kick too much...yes.

Did they get everything right...nope.

Did they win...did they score 4 tries, did they concede only 6 penalties all game and no reds. YES

Will they beat NZ, Ireland, France SA....probably not.

Will we win this word cup...absolutely not.

The rebuild will continue after the World Cup and i estimate about 10-15 of this squad (maybe more) will be moved on as they are all the wrong side of 30 and not really bringing much to the table.

Leiecester were awful and he did the same with them...it was ugly, and not great to watch but he made them very hard to beat initally and then built on that.

Harlem Globetrotter rugby doesnt win world cups....

YEs lets draw a line....for me...this world cup was too soon. The big one for me is the selections post WC when the slate is wiped clean and how things progress through the next 6n, Summer and Autumn games.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Sep 2023, 12:17 pm

Why has Borthwick wasted so much time to start this overhaul then. Why not use the 6ns and this WC. He's basically wasting what 15 or so games?

by Geordie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 12:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why has Borthwick wasted so much time to start this overhaul then. Why not use the 6ns and this WC. He's basically wasting what 15 or so games?

I can only assume it was worse than he thought and the 6n was the eye opener.

I know Scott Robertson would have them playing like the AB's now so ill not argue with you ....

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Sep 2023, 12:44 pm

I don't mind if people don't rate Robertson. Go nuts. Apparently Borthwick was the best we could have got. It's just interesting to see even people who rate Borthwick are hanging their hat on him changing quite a lot post WC. Hence just the question that things are so bad (he did say that nothing we did was good when he came in) why he seems pretty content to carry on quite similarly to Jones be it personnel and the kicking tactics.

by Geordie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 1:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't mind if people don't rate Robertson. Go nuts. Apparently Borthwick was the best we could have got. It's just interesting to see even people who rate Borthwick are hanging their hat on him changing quite a lot post WC. Hence just the question that things are so bad (he did say that nothing we did was good when he came in) why he seems pretty content to carry on quite similarly to Jones be it personnel and the kicking tactics.

Because all top teams play the kicking game in one way or another. Certain aspects have improved already...others clearly have lots to work on.

Ill judge him after the AI's next year. Thats a reasonable timeframe for him to really get things bedded in with new players etc.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Sep 2023, 1:20 pm

Whats you aims after those AIs then in terms of is he a success? Purely on win ration, bit of progression in terms of kick the leather off it, new people?

by Geordie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 1:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Whats you aims after those AIs then in terms of is he a success? Purely on win ration, bit of progression in terms of kick the leather off it, new people?

1.
Problem positions (Tight head, 12, Wing, starting 10 ) addressed.
New kids introduced into the squad...

2.
6n...3rd or above minimum, but having taken the Ireland and France to the last whistle (if we do get beat off them)

3.
Summer tour...New Zealand 2 x Tests. Expectations to keep them close and give them a hell of a series. Winning might be a stretch...but we need to be very competitive and physical there.

4.
AI's - Dont know who we are playing but playing at home, if we have 3 games and play 2 big sides and one tier 2....i would expect to win 2 and be very competitive in the 3rd. We have to make Twickenham a fortress again.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Sep 2023, 1:59 pm

It's interesting that then as I see there as are those positions really under question for Borthwick? Tighthead seems to be pretty stable with Sinckler and Stuart, FH, well it's Farrell. Wing maybe a bit more open, but may well be Daly and Watson moving forward. So are they recognised problem positions and merely positions where you don't agree with the choices?

Always a chance I suppose, I'd go with maybe 3rd is doable, but very possible 4th. The 6Ns is a bit up and down, 3 teams are definitely better than us at present but positions in the tournament don't necessarily meet that given the format or home and away each year.

Yeah, not sure we'll be near NZ at all.

Don't think the AIs have been released. Depends who comes calling, unlikely to be both the top 2 teams down south.

by mountain man Tue 19 Sep 2023, 2:05 pm

Surely can't be looking at Daly and Watson as wings as part of rebuild for 2024 and on? 10 as per is problem position as is 12. Smith it seems won't be Borthwick 10 so is it going to be Ford and Farrell working towards 2027. Seems a stretch.
Stuart isn't convincing at all and Sinckler not back to his best but time on his side regards age.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 Sep 2023, 2:50 pm

You don't think mm? I wouldn't have had them now I don't think, but it was just a question as to whether what we see as problem positions are what Borthwick et al do. Smith doesn't seem to have impressed Borthwick does he, so I can see him being a bit time player, but again is it an issue for us? Farrell be 35 next time will he, not that old for a fly half, he isn't going to lose pace, so why couldn't he be the first choice still?

by Geordie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 2:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's interesting that then as I see there as are those positions really under question for Borthwick? Tighthead seems to be pretty stable with Sinckler and Stuart, FH, well it's Farrell. Wing maybe a bit more open, but may well be Daly and Watson moving forward. So are they recognised problem positions and merely positions where you don't agree with the choices?

Always a chance I suppose, I'd go with maybe 3rd is doable, but very possible 4th. The 6Ns is a bit up and down, 3 teams are definitely better than us at present but positions in the tournament don't necessarily meet that given the format or home and away each year.

Yeah, not sure we'll be near NZ at all.

Don't think the AIs have been released. Depends who comes calling, unlikely to be both the top 2 teams down south.

You see i think hes torn at 10. Ford was his general at Tigers...Farrell a huge influence but not the playmaker he probably wants...and Smith...just a problem that needs fixed.

12 also...Manu is fit at the moment and had a couple of decent games. If he stays fit...maybe the position is addressed...if not then it needs fixed.

Stuart is awful and should be nowhere near the squad. Wings....hhmmm i dont think its set in stone...and i dont think Watson is fit enough these days. May isnt the player he was.

6n...is what it is.

NZ...dont think we'll beat them but we need to be competitive and push them with a intense, physical game. Thats very possible...if we use the 6n to further our game.

by Geordie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 3:36 pm

Over 30's

Cole (36): Move on
Marler (33): Move on
Sinckler (30): Keep
George (32): Keep
Vunipola (30) Move On
Youngs (34) Move On
Care (36) Move On
Ford (30) Keep
Farrell (32) Keep
Tuilagi (32) Unsure
Daly (30) keep for the moment
May (33) Move On

Ribbans, Willis and Marchant definitely leaving -Arundel given dispensation due to LI

From Current Squad that would mean...

LP: Genge, Rodd, + 1
HK: George, Dan, Walker
TP: Sinckler, Stuart, + 1
LK: Itoje, Chessum, Martin, + 1
FL: Curry, Ludlam, Earl, Lawes + 1
N8: + 1
SH: Mitchell, + 2
FH: Farrell, Ford, Smith
IC: Lawrence, + 1 (Unsure if keeping Manu or not)
OC: + 1
WG: Arundell, Malins, Daly + 1
FB: Steward

6N squads are 36.

So 10 out of the squad and another 3 added for the 6n....could be a change of around 13 players....

by king_carlos Tue 19 Sep 2023, 3:53 pm

Looking at the RWC squad I don't see a group that needs wholesale change for the Six Nations. I also generally see younger players that make sense as replacing certain older players as they age out.

Lawrence has had some stronger performances and is looking like Manu's understudy in that squad.

Likewise Ludlam has been performing really well and could take over the blindside shirt. Plus we have lots of opensides so there's the option of Curry at 6. I see plenty of good flanker options.

I already feel that JvP, Mitchell and Quirke are the best 3 SHs in the country. The first two have been getting starts anyway and should keep improving given their talent. Whilst Quirke just needs to stay fit but has bags of talent.

Rodd needs to improve his scrummaging but he's a good prospect to take over from Marler.

Number 8 is a mess though. Mercer has consistently shone at club level but he is a very different player to most that succeed in international rugby at number 8. Aldritt, Doris, Wiese, Vermuelen. They are different beast physically to Mercer. Even 7s that cover 8 regularly such as Savea, Himeno and Lamaro seem significantly more powerful in contact. I do wonder if he's a player that will convert his talents from club rugby for that reason. Barbeary has the raw power to get over the gain line but keeps getting injured, sadly. CCS is a prospect who hopefully keeps progressing at Quins.

Wing is the other position needing clear development. Having Steward and Arundell to battle for the 15 shirt should definitely makes that easier though. Fullback having more stability helps bed wingers in. If we could have Watson or Daly on one wing come the Six Nations then develop someone such as Murley or Freeman on the other I think that'd be a decent position.

I'm always wary of discarding players over 30 as soon as they aren't nailed on starters though. Cian Healy and Keith Earls are great examples of how much can be got from experienced players even if they aren't first choice anymore. If England got get similar out of Marler at LH and Daly as a versatile outside back after this RWC then I'd be very happy. Francois Louw in the Boks '19 squad and Vermuelen this time around are perhaps other good examples of managing players late in their career very well to get the most out of them.

by Geordie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 4:16 pm

Telegraph saying all 3 fly halfs to start v Chile...

10, 12 and 15.

by mountain man Tue 19 Sep 2023, 5:06 pm

Geordie wrote:Telegraph saying all 3 fly halfs to start v Chile...

10, 12 and 15.

SA played 4 9s against Romania so England playing 3 10s is least we can do.

Ideal all in front row just to mix things up...

by Big Tue 19 Sep 2023, 5:44 pm

king_carlos wrote:
I'm always wary of discarding players over 30 as soon as they aren't nailed on starters though. Cian Healy and Keith Earls are great examples of how much can be got from experienced players even if they aren't first choice anymore.

I'm doubly wary in that I think there are few things worse for a players development than chucking them in the team based on their potential. Make the youngsters earn their spot - whether it's starting or wider squad - and they'll be better for it. If they aren't better than the old hand then they don't get in until they up their game.

by Poorfour Tue 19 Sep 2023, 6:11 pm

Big wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
I'm always wary of discarding players over 30 as soon as they aren't nailed on starters though. Cian Healy and Keith Earls are great examples of how much can be got from experienced players even if they aren't first choice anymore.

I'm doubly wary in that I think there are few things worse for a players development than chucking them in the team based on their potential. Make the youngsters earn their spot - whether it's starting or wider squad - and they'll be better for it. If they aren't better than the old hand then they don't get in until they up their game.

The issue is succession planning. If you make youngsters earn their spot but for whatever reason they can’t quite wrest it off the old hands, then you’ve got a big problem if the old hand in question gets injured shortly before the RWC, because you’ve got no backup with any experience.

The big question ahead of Borthwick after the RWC is how to evolve England’s attack. The defence is now working pretty well, the set piece has stabilised but the attack is pretty blunt, both tactically and in terms of the personnel it’s relying on.

Of the backline that started against Japan, only Mitchell, Marchant and Steward are under 30. The odds are against Ford, May, Daly and Tuilagi playing in 2027, and the latter three are at the age where they are already losing some of the physical characteristics that made them distinctive at this level.

Borthwick is a pragmatist. I think he has stuck with older players for this year because he needed a squad with the experience to rapidly pick up the game plan and the big game experience to compete in the knockout stages. But equally, I think that he will rebuild his squad for the 6N and we will see him focusing on the players he expects to be leading the team in 2027. I don’t think that will be Ford and Farrell. It might not be Smith - but the fact that he has asked him to learn a new position on the fly (and one where there is an incumbent who is young and a Borthwick protege) suggests that he does see value in what he can bring, even if it’s not currently at fly half.

If some of the old guard are still around in 2027, then that’s a bonus. But Ireland and France got to where they are today by bringing through a new generation of players (even if in Ireland’s case that was sometimes forced).

by king_carlos Tue 19 Sep 2023, 7:31 pm

Geordie wrote:Telegraph saying all 3 fly halfs to start v Chile...

10, 12 and 15.

I'm interested to see what they do with the pack in particular. There's a bye week between Chile and Samoa. I wonder if they'll want to keep getting a few of the first choice 23 game time.

1.Marler 2.Dan 3.Stuart 4.Martin 5.Chessum 6.Ludlam 7.Willis 8.Vunipola
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Marchant 14.Arundell 15.Smith

16.Walker 17.Rodd 18.Cole 19.Ribbans 20.Earl 21.Youngs 22.Lawrence 23.Daly

Not starting Rodd or Ribbans might seem dumb but I just wonder if they might want to see Dan scrummaging alongside a strong LH. Or Chessum running the lineout without Itoje and Lawes.

One thing I'm hoping to see is that 9-10-12-13 as I think they could work well together.

by alfie Tue 19 Sep 2023, 9:15 pm

Commenting somewhat timidly as I just don’t have the extensive Rugby knowledge of most on here…but I’ve watched these two England matches and to be honest , given all the doom and gloom expressed on here in advance of the competition , have been mildly impressed that they haven’t been as bad as expected . Yes , Argentina had a shocker - but how much of that was due to England’s surprising resilience in the face of the early loss of a player and subsequent slightly unusual tactics unnerving them ? And if it is true Japan made plenty of handling errors, so too did England (that slippery ball ?). A win with four tries : not pretty , a lot of it , true. But the scoreboard is what counts , no ? Marler can use his head any time if it gets a result for mine Smile

Sure the kicking away possession is frustrating : several times I was bewildered when they tried those little grubber kicks when seemingly within touching distance of the line …but when they did try to keep ball in hand and press they kept losing it anyway so questionable whether there was anything lost ?

Look I accept general wisdom that they are unlikely to beat any of the Big Four in the semis. But if they can get past Fiji Wales or Australia -surely all winnable though not certain - they will at least have lived up to best expectations : seem to be a lot on here feared they would struggle to get out of the group ! And if they do get to a semi …who knows ? Upsets happen…

For now I am enjoying the process. Can we do that and worry about the Next Step after the WC is done ?

by king_carlos Tue 19 Sep 2023, 9:48 pm

Lovely to see you on the rugby boards, alfie!

The frustrations of many largely come down to tactics. As has so often been the case in rugby union there are fans that place 'running rugby' and winning on a similar level in terms of what they want. Then fans that place winning first with the style second. The latter tend to view rugby as a game that has always been dominated by kicking and tactical play, with that element of the game having improved with professionalism rather than a once running dominated sport that has moved away from that due to professionalism.

England playing some absolute dross both in terms of tactics and success in the later years of Eddie Jones being in charge has certainly led to increased calls for more expansive rugby. Somewhat amusingly, and torturously at the time, a lot of that rubbish play came as England tried to implement a new style of attacking structure under Jones that had never been seen before. In theory it was very interesting and I expect a better team down the line to copy it to great effect. In reality, England didn't have the personnel needed to make reinventing the wheel possible and it was largely very dire.

I'm of the view that you only really get improvements in rugby as it now stands by first improving the fundamentals. Defence, kicking game, scrum and lineout. Without these actually building a decent attack is very difficult anyway and likely wont win you games on its own. I feel the set-piece and defence are improving quickly. The team look a lot fitter too. The penalty count against them that has been really bad for a long time has been excellent in R1 and R2 as well. The kicking game is a work in progress. Improvements have been seen in parts. Mitchell and Ford were fantastic in that regard against Argentina for instance. Then far poorer against Japan.

I hope to see the attack develop as the team improves. I think it's absolutely necessary to do that to be a regular contender against the best teams. I'm also realistic that most sides take time to develop that though. A cohesive attack that can break down international defences without taking risks that lead to costly errors is definitely the most difficult thing to develop in the modern game. The improvements in fitness and analysis especially mean that defences are incredibly strong now compared to what we were seeing even 10 years ago.

I think the general view here is that whilst making the KOs with a favourable draw isn't a great achievement, it is a lot better than not making the KOs with a favourable draw. If there is clear improvement in areas that need improving along the way then I think most are happy to give the new setup time to develop the side and improve.

Then there is 7&1/2. Who appears to have had every family pet he's ever loved run over by Steve Borthwick. We're trying to get him counselling. But there are long waiting lists at the moment.

by king_carlos Tue 19 Sep 2023, 9:53 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFMQjuriBlo

The latest This Rose mini-doc there. An interesting watch as ever.

I'm really happy to see Kruis is still there in that lineout coaching and analysis capacity. The lineout defence has improved so much in a short space of time. It's something that had been so poor for a while but is now looking like a strength.

As an aside, it's odd seeing players post retirement when they lose a ton of weight. Losing a lot of weight is of course better than putting a lot on as some do. Kruiser is looking cracking for a bloke in his mid-thirties. There's just something strange about seeing a guy who was once near enough 20 stone of muscle looking like a very tall person though.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Sep 2023, 6:21 am

Surely Borthwick would have just tried to kick my dog to death rather than running it over.

A semi final was always the par for these players due to a favourable draw. We're still on for it.

by mountain man Wed 20 Sep 2023, 8:06 am

SF maybe par given draw but seeing how England played in warm ups and at times in Japan match I think be good achievement now.
They will of course get to QF and quite possibly 4 from 4 which pre RWC we'd have jumped at.

I do think though Wales will improve, their 1st team is so much better than team that were so bad against Portugal.
Also Fiji will be a real handful especially if England kick everything to them.

Either of those teams definitely not a given in a QF one off match.
For me I hope Australia qualify and England get to play them in QF.

Aside from I think it's best chance of win, the extra incentive(for both teams) of the Eddie factor be really interesting.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 20 Sep 2023, 8:21 am

Reaching the semi-finals would be an excellent achievement, no matter what the draw.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Sep 2023, 8:25 am

Based on the group and likely quarter finalists I don't think it would be an excellent achievement though I do get the feeling that Borthwick's performances have led to a lowering of expectations post Jones.

by Geordie Wed 20 Sep 2023, 8:49 am

king_carlos wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFMQjuriBlo

The latest This Rose mini-doc there. An interesting watch as ever.

I'm really happy to see Kruis is still there in that lineout coaching and analysis capacity. The lineout defence has improved so much in a short space of time. It's something that had been so poor for a while but is now looking like a strength.

As an aside, it's odd seeing players post retirement when they lose a ton of weight. Losing a lot of weight is of course better than putting a lot on as some do. Kruiser is looking cracking for a bloke in his mid-thirties. There's just something strange about seeing a guy who was once near enough 20 stone of muscle looking like a very tall person though.

Bloody hell...Kruis looks ill ha ha....he's lost some weight hasnt he!

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