Bernard Hopkins - Joe Louis hypocrisy!!

Hopkins has greater longevity,,beaten the better opposition, dominated his division just as much as Louis..

But hasn't got a cat chance in hell of being as high in the all time rankings...Let's face it Floyd hasn't either!!

Isn't it time modern guys got a break and their just due????

Floyd and Hopkins are scumbags.

I don't believe that it is a ' new v old ' issue, Truss.

Few begrudge Leonard or Duran a place among the elite, and I'd bet that if Floyd and Manny ever get it on the winner of that one will be seen by most to have sealed his place, also.

Poor old BHop just doesn't rock everybody's boat. It's a shame, but that's how it is.

Of course it is.......Windy. Look at the rankings and see the discrimination......

Mayweather/Hoppo have every right to be considered as high as half the top 10 but they won't be because the old fighters get better through time..

Dempsey would knock out Ali according to Nat Fleischer and these are views taken seriously by people like Bert Sugar. Lewis isn't even in that guy's top 20. and i'm no Lewis fan.

Until these guys shuffle off this mortal coil..no modern day guy will get his due.

But fair enough.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Of course it is.......Windy. Look at the rankings and see the discrimination......

Mayweather/Hoppo have every right to be considered as high as half the top 10 but they won't be because the old fighters get better through time..

Dempsey would knock out Ali according to Nat Fleischer and these are views taken seriously by people like Bert Sugar. Lewis isn't even in that guy's top 20. and i'm no Lewis fan.

Until these guys shuffle off this mortal coil..no modern day guy will get his due.

But fair enough.

While my above comment was crass, it explains why they are regarded less fondly. Less scrutiny of sportsmen in the old days. Less material to obscure objectivity....

I agree with you Sean...If they had 24/7 media coverage then we'd see them warts and all...

Easy to read about these oldtimers and think they are invincible...

Reading Marvel comics I always had Iron Man slightly higher than the Hulk in my rankings...

No doubt sub mariner was higher than The thing though as the thing was more modern.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Of course it is.......Windy. Look at the rankings and see the discrimination......

Mayweather/Hoppo have every right to be considered as high as half the top 10 but they won't be because the old fighters get better through time..

Dempsey would knock out Ali according to Nat Fleischer and these are views taken seriously by people like Bert Sugar. Lewis isn't even in that guy's top 20. and i'm no Lewis fan.

Until these guys shuffle off this mortal coil..no modern day guy will get his due.

But fair enough.

How often do you see Dempsey rated above Ali today ?

In fairness, Hopkins wouldn't be all that far behind Louis in my pound for pound estimations. I have Louis just inside my top twenty but Bernard is pushing or a top twenty-five spot, I reckon. It's a fair comparison I suppose, so kudos for the article, Truss.

I can't agree that Hopkins was just as dominant at Middleweight as Louis was at Heavyweight, mind you. I think out of Hopkins' twenty defences at 160 lb, only a third or so of them came as undisputed champion after he'd stopped Trinidad. No such problem for Louis - the only doubt over his absolute supremacy was vanquished when he blitzed Schmeling second time out, and I believe that was only the fourth or fifth out of his twenty-five defences.

Also, the fact that he'd been soundly beaten (but not dominated) by Jones means that there will always be a whispering campaign that Hopkins would never have been 'the man' at Middleweight had Jones stuck around there. We'll never know for sure, of course, but again that's something which Louis didn't suffer with.

In terms of quality opposition, I actally think there's very little in it. Conn may have been a Light-Heavyweight but if we're going to degrade Louis for that then we'd have to do the same for Hopkins' wins over the likes of Trinidad, De la Hoya and Wright, all naturally smaller men than himself. I think the likes of Schmeling, Walcott, Sharkey and Carnera are at least on an equal footing, collectively, with Johnson, Joppy, Tarver and Pascal, too.

Both marvels when it comes to technical boxing ability, so no real need to go through their respective merits on that one. All in all I'd have them fairly close, but I see no real reason for Hopkins to be decisively above Louis, and I'm happy to keep the 'Brown Bomber' at the top when it comes to these two.

What a silly example.......

Fleischer was overuled because it's easy to say Man Utd are better than Swansea...

However stick two cases closer together and you'll see the hypocrisy....

Don't be pedantic it doesn't suit you.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What a silly example.......

Fleischer was overuled because it's easy to say Man Utd are better than Swansea...

Couldn't agree more, which is why I'm surprised you brought it up. The fact is that nobody - except you - begrudges a place for Duran among the elite. Nor do they begrudge Leonard.

How, then, can you justify your position that Hoppo's comparative lack of prestige is based on prejudice ? Couldn't it simply be that he's still active ?

I begrudge Duran a top 10 place and he is a relatively modern fighter..I don't dispute he's top 20 but not top 10....

Like Reg Gutteridge I saw the Hearns fight and don't believe an elite fighter gets battered like that...

Keep reaching..

Hopkins did lose to Calzaghe...... Could've been put away had he not feigned injury from a 'low' blow......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I begrudge Duran a top 10 place and he is a relatively modern fighter..I don't dispute he's top 20 but not top 10....

Like Reg Gutteridge I saw the Hearns fight and don't believe an elite fighter gets battered like that...

Keep reaching..

I'm not debating Duran with you. I'm illustrating that he is a modern fighter who is routinely named among the top ten ATGs as chosen by fans and historians.

If I've reached you with that I'll consider it work well done, since you are clearly in one of your argumentative and obtuse moods.

Hopkins was 42 against Calzaghe..Louis was 30 something when he got banged out by the Charles, Marciano types...

Schmelling was no RJJ either..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hopkins was 42 against Calzaghe..Louis was 30 something when he got banged out by the Charles, Marciano types...

Schmelling was no RJJ either..

Calzaghe was 36. Hardly prime.........

Pavlik was more prime....and a p4per.

Certainly better than Buddy Baer.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Certainly better than Buddy Baer.

How would you know ?

senility has set in obviously...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:senility has set in obviously...

Well, we must all bow to Mother Nature.

Good luck with puberty.

look who's talking...How do we know buddy baer wasn't as good as Pavlik??

Physician heal thyself....Never mind go and hide behing your little buddies on here.

They'll look after you.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:look who's talking...How do we know buddy baer wasn't as good as Pavlik??

Physician heal thyself....Never mind go and hide behing your little buddies on here.

They'll look after you.

To whom is that addressed ?

To...Dorothy out of the wizard of oz..

Somebody is in a bad mood today...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:To...Dorothy out of the wizard of oz..

Next time you see the wizard, ask him for the brain.

I kind of find it amusing how the moderators can bandy insults around but everybody else gets threatened with the boot...

addressed to you Windy...now go and get a mate to kick me off.

Ah Truss, why must it ever be thus?

When presented with a very reasonable obstacle to your argument - must you resort to behaving like a schoolyard bully and throwing around abuse?

For the record - Floyd's record isn't better than Duran's. Nor is Hopkins'. Their records aren't better than Leonard, Armstrong, Robinson or Greb. As such - they aren't top 10.

Floyd has a beautiful style and is clearly a stunning talent. However that talent has been shown only too infrequently and against an "odd" choice of opposition - Gatti instead of Tszyu for instance.

Hoppo has losses to Taylor, Calzaghe at LHW. Since the loss to an ageing Joe - he's come back to win the LHW title - growing even older in the process. That should says as much about the weakness of the division than the strength of Hopkins. It doesn't make him top10.

Pavlik - undisputed middle champ...Is he is as good as Buddy Baer...

Is Leonard as good as Esparragoza..how can you tell?????

Can someone help windy out here...

he's struggling

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I kind of find it amusing how the moderators can bandy insults around but everybody else gets threatened with the boot...

addressed to you Windy...now go and get a mate to kick me off.

To start with, YOU began the rough stuff.

Secondly, I don't need to ' hide behind ' anybody. Your argument is flawed. The primary evidence argument is a two edged sword, so if you haven't seen Loughran - for example - and somebody else has, then he is, by your logic, better able to judge Loughran's worth.

Incidentally, how many Corbett fights have you watched ? Just wondering, since you wrote this, at the Tunney / Corbett thread :

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:How does Tunney destroy Corbett.....They are two stylists from that age with Corbett the naturally bigger man...

Corbett was for me just as skillful as Tunney if less quick and the longer the fight goes on the better chance he has of wearing the smaller man down.

Don't forget there was a lot of clinching in those days..lot's of time to lean on the guy and take his legs.....

Corbett was ahead of his time and Tunney looked good in an era of brawlers...Not a great skill threshold difference!!

Corbett in a 25 round fight Tunney by decision in a 15..

I saw Tunney against Dempsey and Corbett v Fitz..The same half bothered hands down half cultured type boxers....

whether I started it isn't the issue!! (which I didn't)..I get warned about my behaviour by people like you..

Double standards.

Now run along I consider you owned and vanquished.

Thread locked whilst I send out warnings

Please discuss this like adults. Thanks.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Reading Marvel comics I always had Iron Man slightly higher than the Hulk in my rankings...

Nonsense, prime Hulk would beat Iron Man eight times out of ten.

To try and answer the original question and steer the thread onto more civil terms if we look at Floyd, who was raised originally, since Hatton in 2007 at a time when he could be considered to be nigh on prime he has spent 17 months retired, beaten a woefully outweighed Marquez, had a decent win over Mosley before spending another 16 months out.

Also whereever one stands on the issue the fact remains for whatever reason he has also failed to fight the one guy who most consider has a chance of beating him. Most agree he is a top tier talent but when you are talking about top ten all timers he is up against guys who largley fought everyone and anyone they should have and also do not have such periods of unexplained inactivity during their prime. Seems obvious to me given all this his standing may suffer

A marvel insider once told me that Thor was always regarded and would always be regarded as the number 1 out of all the heroes for some reason.....

Don't ask me why though!

You never know Truss the Avengers film next year may answer all your questions.

Ali had a period of inactivity as did Leonard....Too simplistic....

Quality wise I think Hoppo has way more than louis...longevity etc..

All points to Hoppo being higher but not in reality..

But your opinion is welcome even if... ever so predictable..

The major difference between the two you mentioned and Floyd Truss is whilst we can argue there are guys they maybe should have faced, such as Foreman rematch for Ali or Hearns rematch sooner for Ray or at a push Pryor (although I never subscribed to that view) there are no guys who leap out as glaring ommisions and whether we like it or not and whoever you blame for it Manny is a massive, massive ommission for Floyd and will in many peoples mind, mine included, stand as a black mark against Floyd should he not be accomodated.

**Hopkins did lose to Calzaghe...... Could've been put away had he not feigned injury from a 'low' blow......

Hopkins, at 43-years-old, was able to beat Calzaghe on (1) clean punching, (2) effective aggression, (3) ring generalship, and (4) defence - all 4 of the factors used to score professional boxing.

Las Vegas judges favour aggression so Calzaghe's pitter patter got him the decision but did he

At 43-years-old, Hopkins win the fight? No. Not according to how professional boxing should be scored.

Las Vegas judges favour aggression so Calzaghe's pitter patter got him the decision but did he win the fight? No.

At 43-years-old, Hopkins schooled Calzaghe.

Duke McKenzie, David Haye, Max Kellerman, Jim Lampley, Larry Merchant, ESPN ... all had Hopkins winning.

oxring wrote:Thread locked whilst I send out warnings

I thought admins couldnt ban people. Its like the time I was 11 and got my dad to sort out some bigger kids.

Rather moderators...

Are moderators like the nominated school kids who have no real authority and have to get teachers for proper sanctions?

Interesting comparison in many ways. Have to say I would agree with you TRUSSMAN.

The only thing I will say is that the Hopkins continues to enhance his legacy and the dust hasnt fully settled on his career yet. Its still unclear to some extent where exactly he is going to end up in the long run.

It would be quite hard to justify a large gap between the two fighters though.

I would tend to agree that lists favour older era fighters to some extent. The honus tends t be on later fighters to do a little bit extra to displace guys on the list above them and as the sport has evolved the current shape of boxing with multi titles and mch fewer fights has made this task of displacing older fighters on the list all the more difficult.

Its also generally a natural occurance that the current crop of fighters will be the most scrutinised as people are witnessing the events first hand themselves and not relying on the less reliable 2nd and 3rd party sources.

I always think trying to compare and evaluate fighters across eras is pretty much an excercise in historical analysis as boxing.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Rather moderators...

Are moderators like the nominated school kids who have no real authority and have to get teachers for proper sanctions?

Jack, the only thing I'll say is that the mods and admins don't want to ban anybody. We only want the board to run smoothly and for everybody to enjoy being here, and sometimes that requires trying to stay one step ahead and nip potential trouble in the bud.

Debate and banter can flow, as can minor jibes. Offensive insults, however, cannot.

HumanWindmill wrote:Jack, the only thing I'll say is that the mods and admins don't want to ban anybody. We only want the board to run smoothly and for everybody to enjoy being here, and sometimes that requires trying to stay one step ahead and nip potential trouble in the bud.

Debate and banter can flow, as can minor jibes. Offensive insults, however, cannot.

You must recognise the moderation is over the top now... No CAPITAL LETTERS, what is that all about

As for the article, I agree. For me Hoppo is a top 20 fighters and possibly the greatest of his generation.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Jack, the only thing I'll say is that the mods and admins don't want to ban anybody. We only want the board to run smoothly and for everybody to enjoy being here, and sometimes that requires trying to stay one step ahead and nip potential trouble in the bud.

Debate and banter can flow, as can minor jibes. Offensive insults, however, cannot.

You must recognise the moderation is over the top now... No CAPITAL LETTERS, what is that all about

Well, I know that one didn't go down too well at the time, but not every decision can be a popular one.

As far as the moderation of comments is concerned, we try to find solutions - without taking sides - and we try to help the building of bridges when things go belly up. I've said before that I believe the best moderation to be invisible, and I'm sure that oxy and Fists of Fury would agree. We might get there, one day, but this is still a relatively new forum and we're all still getting to know it and, to a lesser extent, each other, even though many of us came over from the Beeb.

You and I have had a private discussion or two, and I would hope that you would agree that I have tried to be helpful and fair. oxy and Fists of Fury will be likewise, I can assure you.

I say hang all the admin team, let chaos rule

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I say hang all the admin team, let chaos rule

Ha !

That's the spirit, Ghosty. Anarchy in the U K and all. I can't afford all these wrinkles and white hair. My wife has enough to put up with without all that stuff.

Thanks to the guy who changed the Louis in the title....

Noticed it... but couldn't be bothered editing..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Thanks to the guy who changed the Louis in the title....

Noticed it... but couldn't be bothered editing..

You are welcome, Sire !