Are you satisfied that aerial ping-pong has been eliminated?

In 2009 it was widely considered that the age of aerial ping pong was one of the biggest problems that rugby was facing. The IRB took steps to eliminate it. Have they been successful? Is it the problem it once was or has it been eliminated?

I hope not because Rob Kearney's in the WC prelim squad!

I think they have done a good bit to help it. but as Rodd eludes too, it has made some players we classed as world class look pretty ordinary

I don't think aerial ping pong will totally disappear, there are times when it is crucial, but then kicking is an art that must be executed to perfection or it is of no use.

In the beginning of the Super XV, the Bulls were struggling to chase the kicks successfully and paid the price, when they started being more accurate and had someone like Bjorn Basson to chase, it became effective.

I am not sure if it is my imagination but it seems teams are varying their kicking more, there are more little box kicks, cross kicks, territorial kicking and less up and unders.

This year in the supe XV, it seems kicking has become an attacking weapon, more than just getting it in the air.

biltongbek wrote:I don't think aerial ping pong will totally disappear, there are times when it is crucial, but then kicking is an art that must be executed to perfection or it is of no use.

In the beginning of the Super XV, the Bulls were struggling to chase the kicks successfully and paid the price, when they started being more accurate and had someone like Bjorn Basson to chase, it became effective.

I am not sure if it is my imagination but it seems teams are varying their kicking more, there are more little box kicks, cross kicks, territorial kicking and less up and unders.

This year in the supe XV, it seems kicking has become an attacking weapon, more than just getting it in the air.

As it should be really. Ping pong was never a weapon. It was a Hail Mary, Route One, Shot in the Dark attempt to force the opponents into a mistake

Seriously though, yes it does seem to have gone out of fashion though and the rules seem to be favouring the teams which retain posession and can generate quick ball.

At the end of the day though teams will always find a way to adapt their game to the rules and play to their strength's. SA still kick a lot and Ireland and SA seem to be the two teams who have struggled the most to try and evolve their game over the past two seasons.

roddersm wrote: Ireland and SA seem to be the two teams who have struggled the most to try and evolve their game over the past two seasons.

Coincidentally the two best teams in their respective hemispheres in 2009

CAmn they bring in a ruling that bans aimless kicking, then we (Welsh) by be ok because our aimless kicking is terrible at the moment

It's not the blight on the game that it was, but there's still a lot of aimless kicking around - Wales v Ireland in this year's Six Nations, for example.

The original garryowen - a high ball with the attacking side competing for the ball - is still a useful weapon; but kicking the ball away with no genuine chase is just choosing to concede possession. Wales do a lot of it and it infuriates me.

red_stag wrote:

roddersm wrote: Ireland and SA seem to be the two teams who have struggled the most to try and evolve their game over the past two seasons.

Coincidentally the two best teams in their respective hemispheres in 2009

I don't think it's coincidental. Both had effective game plans and strengths under the old interpretations that became ineffective under the new interprations and to some extent a liability. Players that were awesome all of a sudden became very average e.g. kearney and Thomas O'Leary

Could the age profile of the sides have been an issue too? Older people don't adapt to change as well

roddersm wrote:Seriously though, yes it does seem to have gone out of fashion though and the rules seem to be favouring the teams which retain posession and can generate quick ball.

At the end of the day though teams will always find a way to adapt their game to the rules and play to their strength's. SA still kick a lot and Ireland and SA seem to be the two teams who have struggled the most to try and evolve their game over the past two seasons.

You are correct that SA does kick a lot, but that is mainly due to instruction. If you look at our Super 15 teams, they play a very well balanced game, the intention to maintain possession and run the ball is in contrast to the style PDV insists on.

By and large we have lost the ten minutes of ping-pong per game that used to happen too frequently. It still occurs when two slow, defence minded, teams come up against each other, but it's not as protracted as it was.

On the same theme, the other significant blight on the game as a spectator sport back in 2009 was the scrummage. Why have the IRB not taken steps to get solve this problem?

Sneaky - they did but the steps failed. I have no doubt we will see more action taken in 2012

I do hope they solve the scrum problem in a way that the dominant scrum can rightfully express itself. Depowering the scrum to a RL type status would be an easy was to go and would be Health and Safety friendly but would remove this important and often enjoyable tactical feature of the game.

Sneaky - without wanting to get side tracked from the kicking part I reckon removing the hit will be the next step.

As horrible as it is to say, at time the ariel ping pong route works. For example if you have a side that is full of counterattacking options, but you put up with teh ariel ping pong at the start of the match, you can really rip through the opposition in the second half, as teams take a while to adjust.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:As horrible as it is to say, at time the ariel ping pong route works. For example if you have a side that is full of counterattacking options, but you put up with teh ariel ping pong at the start of the match, you can really rip through the opposition in the second half, as teams take a while to adjust.

That is very clever I got to say. Nice little strategy.

Yeah Ireland and SA were affected badly by the change in laws but I would never in a million years change them back.
Ireland just need to make transitions some of which they already have started.

ROG to Sexton
O'Leary to Reddan
Kearney to Jones/Murphy/Earls
Horan to Healy

without wanting to get side tracked from the kicking part I reckon removing the hit will be the next step.

Spot on Stag.

I've been saying that for the last 2 years and I can't understand why the IRB haven't sorted it.

99% of the current problems at the scrum come from the initial hit, inconsistant timings from different refs of the C-T-P-E, teams trying to get the hit in first to get an advantage etc, etc.

It should be crouch, engage (with no hit or pressure), introduce ball (STRAIGHT), now you can push till the cows come home.

Would sort it out overnight and the scrum would still be the contest we all want to see.

MunsterMac wrote:

without wanting to get side tracked from the kicking part I reckon removing the hit will be the next step.

Spot on Stag.

I've been saying that for the last 2 years and I can't understand why the IRB haven't sorted it.

99% of the current problems at the scrum come from the initial hit, inconsistant timings from different refs of the C-T-P-E, teams trying to get the hit in first to get an advantage etc, etc.

It should be crouch, engage (with no hit or pressure), introduce ball (STRAIGHT), now you can push till the cows come home.

Would sort it out overnight and the scrum would still be the contest we all want to see.

+1

MunsterMac wrote:

without wanting to get side tracked from the kicking part I reckon removing the hit will be the next step.

Spot on Stag.

I've been saying that for the last 2 years and I can't understand why the IRB haven't sorted it.

99% of the current problems at the scrum come from the initial hit, inconsistant timings from different refs of the C-T-P-E, teams trying to get the hit in first to get an advantage etc, etc.

It should be crouch, engage (with no hit or pressure), introduce ball (STRAIGHT), now you can push till the cows come home.

Would sort it out overnight and the scrum would still be the contest we all want to see.

Munster Mac - it was ill conceived.

Their original plan was that collapsing scrums wasn't an issue at underage levels so Pause was introduced. It didn't solve anything the thinking was then that packs would be unable to generate power if Pause was longer so a LONG PAUSE was introduced. This clearly hasn't worked either. The IRB know the hit is the problem.

I would say if they don't remove the hit the alternatives will be making the U19 law variations into Senior game.

no because lee byrne is still playing...

mckay1402 wrote:no because lee byrne is still playing...

There's a depressing inevitability every time he fields a kick, isn't there?

unfortunately there is. the worst thing is that Stoddart has started doing it a bit too.

It would surprise me if when Rob Kearney comes back he doesn't do the same

In fairness, if he doesn't have anyone back with him, it would be risky to try running the ball back. But that doesn't mean he should rule it out.

And if the only option is to kick, I'd much rather see him kick for touch.

I hated the aerial ping-pong with a passion. It encouraged teams to be so negative, basically hoping the opposition would actually run one kick back and get pinged for holding on as soon as they went to ground. I understood the IRB's reason for wanting to change the holding on law at the time* but this was an unfortunate consequence. Kearney and Byrne looked like world beaters at this time with their booming kick returns and even Delon Armitage looked pretty good for England due in part to his huge kicks down field. I actually think that the of changing the holding on rule to favour attacking teams wanting quicker ball has had another consequence and that is that some teams no longer play a specialist openside. Out of the home nations Wales have got Warbarton who could easily play at 8, Wallace was always a 6.5, Dusitiour is just about the perfect traditional blindside but plays openside so there is only really Barclay at Scotland who you would argue is specaislt openside. England may even not take a specialist openside in their entire squad for NZ (can't see Fourie making the cut) and I think PDV feels his best back row is Burger, Juan Smith (if fit) and Spies. I rated Brussow during the Lions series but will be interested to see how he goes once fit again as I think he benefited from the rules more than anyone. Only McCaw and Pocock are the exemptions and they are potentially 2 of the best 5 opensides of all time.


*As an England fan I remember the old "pod" system John Wells had them playing. Get a lump to pick the ball up, run slowly into the opposition forwards, basically lie on the ball giving the opposition no chance of competing and then repeat. It was like watching Rugby League in ultra slow motion.

bedfordwelsh wrote:CAmn they bring in a ruling that bans aimless kicking, then we (Welsh) by be ok because our aimless kicking is terrible at the moment

Your aimless kicking if fine
Its the aimed kicking that needs help

Tactical kicking is part of the game,punting,drop kicking,cross kicking., box kicks,grubbers,Chipping over the top,the centreing kick by winger under the posts.The Up and Under.All been used since the ark.
It is a basic skill ,just as chasing and receiving is,.in tight games kick for
territory and trust your line out.Compete on there ball chances are
they will kick fo r touch too.
Giving you an attacking line out,done skilfully it is a lethal weapon,but just hoofing the ball isn`t.

I think it has worked, by and large, some teams still rely on kicking to keep play in the other team's half in preference to running it but not to the level it was before - I've not seen the horrible games of kicking until someone makes a mistake like we used to have.

The change has managed to make the three best NH full backs of that time look very pedestrian now though, which isn't a bad thing, much as I love Byrne's ability to consistently mess up a simple attempt to kick a penalty to touch when in the opponent's 22.... that's still one of the finest sights in rugby.