The 6 Nations - hot or not?

First topic message reminder :

I raised this on old 606 but there are new faces so maybe worth raising again. I'm not a major fan of 6 Nations. Its great to have an international rugby competition and I loved when Ireland won it in 2009. But compared to many other competitions it reallys leaves me a bit unenthused. In reality its no different to the Autumn Internationals. The same 5 games every year - with points difference and the chance of Italy winning a scalp being the main variables.

Just compared to the Lions tour or World Cup or Heienken Cup I'm just left a little wanting. Maybe its my age. Maybe at aged 22 I can't appreciate the years and years of rivalry and maybe I've just been spoiled for choice when I see the sense of occasion and pagentry that other competitions offer.

But the 6 Nations is for me a bit of a damp squib. Shoot me down or agree with me. What do you think.

Greybeard,

Mr Ape. while I don't want to cast aspersions on you navel, and I think you have a valid point, but it could be argued that the 6N is the pre-eminent national competition in the NH and the HC the biggest club one, hence the restricted comparison.Adding in Amlin to dilute (as it were) the impact of the HC's merits only makes sense if you also factor in the second tier NH competition featuring Romania, Georgia, Russia etc.

If this board was awash with Romanians, Russians and Georgians, I would concede the point.

However this board mainly covers the nationalities that compete in the 6N, so for most of us, come February, we have a stake in what’s going on – Ecstasy/Despair – it’s on the table for everybody. Even for our esteemed Tri Nations contributors, they can always cheer on the team that playing the English. Can you not understand how happy Grey Ghost must have felt after Ireland sent England home with a new orifice from Lansdowne?

But the HC is not that inclusive, especially for the English and French teams, as in most seasons there will be more out of it than in it, so I felt it was a valid point to bring in the Amlin, as then you have representation of ALL teams involved – just like the 6N.

I’m not saying you are wrong, but it’s a different perspective, and one that Red Stag probably won’t appreciate as he supports a team that’s guarenteed HC competition.

And yes I am bitter.

Just for one season I'd love to rearrange the European calendar in such a way that the Pro12/Prem/Top14 play to a finish first, then the H Cup plays to a finish, then the Six Nations rounds off the season. For me, that is as it should be.

But if that can't be done I think that if the competition must be played over seven weeks then rather than have two weekends with no matches then maybe stretch out the fixtures so there is at least some test rugby every weekend?

TrailApe wrote: one that Red Stag probably won’t appreciate as he supports a team that’s guarenteed HC competition.

Can't argue with that. The 6 HEC Pool matches have become a staple of my season that I love. The different locations like Welford Road, Kingsholm, South France etc. Getting out the calculators trying to work out qualification. The warm opening game in September. The freezing double headers in December. I love it all

Stag, hence my comments earlier

But in the end, as far as I'm concerned, it's not about what competition has 'better' rugby (for whatever relative value of 'better' you wish to choose) it's about what competition stirs up the best emotions for you.

You cannot try to decide which is a better tournament by putting emotion to one side. Emotion is probably the biggest factor.

greybeard wrote:Stag, hence my comments earlier

But in the end, as far as I'm concerned, it's not about what competition has 'better' rugby (for whatever relative value of 'better' you wish to choose) it's about what competition stirs up the best emotions for you.

You cannot try to decide which is a better tournament by putting emotion to one side. Emotion is probably the biggest factor.

Exactly. This article was never about changing our current 6 Nations system. Just saying what I like better and wondering if people felt same or was I a minority.

Is it maybe that alot of Irish fans on here prefer the HEC to the Six Nations as they seem to do better in the HEC ?

munkian wrote:Is it maybe that alot of Irish fans on here prefer the HEC to the Six Nations as they seem to do better in the HEC ?

Another possibility. I have "enjoyed" defeats in Europe too though. By "enjoy" I mean the defeats hurt more. Its a funny one really.

munkian wrote:Is it maybe that alot of Irish fans on here prefer the HEC to the Six Nations as they seem to do better in the HEC ?

No. And I don't believe we do. Our win loss record is very good in the 6N but it is a harder tournament to win. I know stag will disagree but it is more difficult for Ireland to win a GS than it is for Munster and Leinster to win the HEC.

roddersm wrote: I know stag will disagree but it is more difficult for Ireland to win a GS than it is for Munster and Leinster to win the HEC.

Actually I don't disagree. Grandslams are usually very hard to win. We've had a flurry in recent years but usually they are tough to get.

What flurry we've only had one? Since then we haven't come close. Thats why for me a GS for Ireland tops provincial success for any of the provinces, including Ulster.

The 6N has had a flurry.


"we the people"

greybeard wrote:The 6N has had a flurry.

Though not a McFlurry for quite a while. Sorry Scots folk

roddersm wrote:What flurry we've only had one? Since then we haven't come close. Thats why for me a GS for Ireland tops provincial success for any of the provinces, including Ulster.

The 5/6 Nations is going since 1910 and in total there have been 26 Grandslams won since then. However since 2002 alone there have been 7 won.

They are hard to win though.

Sorry stag I meant difficult for us to win as opposed to generally speaking. I agree there are more now but I couldn't give a monkeys about how many other teams get, all I know is we don't get many!

SafeAsMilk wrote:

greybeard wrote:The 6N has had a flurry.

Though not a McFlurry for quite a while. Sorry Scots folk

meh It's no insult to say a poorly performing team has performed poorly

Like you I definitely get more emotional when Munster win or lose than Ireland. To such a degree that it makes me believe in ancestral memory. I left Munster a long time ago and was unhappy living there but my heart leaps inside me when i see that red jersey. My heart decided that i supported Munster, not my head or my real memories of my home.

But even though i have less love/attachment to Ireland's success or failure i still prefer the 6n as a competition to the H cup. Again my heart decides.

I love both competitions but the 6n is the ultimate for me. It is that best players gathered together all playing for their country. Everyone is playing for their country and every match matters on a deeper level.

This is Europe. These countries all fought wars against each other at some point. This is more than a game. These countries have history with each other that no club or province can match. The anthems get me stirred up. The French anthem was born out of revolution. People died for the right to stand up in their countries colours and sing these anthems. (Well some people had to) It's ancient loyalties and pride from every side, not just a few. You know that the fans from every country, including people that don't normally watch rugby and don't know the rules care deeply about who wins. Remember how fantastic it was to see Italy beat France for the first time this year? It was wonderful! In the h cup what compares to that? Will a whole nation and a whole continent watching get weepy if Aironi beats Munster for the first time in only a group stage but still finishes last overall? The passion is just not on the same scale/ carries such significance. Italy has been at war with France in the not so recent past. Most the countries in the 6nations have serious political history with each other. It draws people in and engages people in a range of levels. I'm sentimental about it because it means so much to EVERYONE not because the rugby is good or not and not just because Ireland are playing or not. Some of my favourite matches in it are down to history/circumstance, not skill. eg Scotland v England.

Perhaps i care more about it than you because i am interested in history and have an awareness of the historical struggles of the countries involved? I'm not sure. It's not to do with the rugby or it's quality. For the same reason I was delighted when South Africa won the world cup. That country deserved to have something great to celebrate and bring people together.

The H cup still has some of that deep loyalty and passion but a lot of people choose who they support and play for in it and the sides do not have this kind of historical baggage. (My boyfriend supports Toulouse and he's from nowhere near there. I'm not even sure if he's ever been there.) How can they? Even Munster v Leinster. The only war i know of between them was when Brian Boru invaded Leinster. Even them Leinstermen supported him against the Leinster vikings. I think. Must look that up.

I'd love to move the 6 nations though. Sorry everyone. I'd have it later in the year and have it as the end to the season. The weather would be better, so would the rugby and the h cup wouldn't be smeared accross the season with all the weird stops and starts.

Intotouch wrote:But even though i have less love/attachment to Ireland's success or failure i still prefer the 6n as a competition to the H cup. Again my heart decides.

Do you mind if I ask you why? I really can't understand why some Irish fans prefer their province to their country?

roddersm wrote:

Intotouch wrote:But even though i have less love/attachment to Ireland's success or failure i still prefer the 6n as a competition to the H cup. Again my heart decides.

Do you mind if I ask you why? I really can't understand why some Irish fans prefer their province to their country?

Many of us are brought up on the GAA model of the parish and the county being the big thing. An All Ireland Winning medal is worth more than beating Scotland or Australia in the GAA games. Up until not so long ago in Munster it was your club that was the be and end all. The Cork v Limerick rivalry. With the demise of the club game and the chance for the parish, the locality, the local town to take on rivals the province has become more important.

Aha! So it's Munster propaganda and indoctrination!

greybeard wrote:Aha! So it's Munster propaganda and indoctrination!

Thats the party line.

roddersm wrote:

TrailApe wrote:I notice those that are placing the HC over the 6N are mainly Irish and Munster, Leinster and Ulster supporters.

That is inaccurate. It is mainly Notch(Ulster) and Stag(Munster). Myself and Aukster (both Ulster I think) are on the 6N side of the fence as are a number of other Irish fans who have commented, possibly the majority(?), so please don't generalise here because it gives an incorrect picture.

Sorry Rodders as said in an earlier postyou can add Brennomac (Leinster) to the great Irish provincial HC conspiracy. Amazing what can unite (some) Munster, leinster and Ulster supporters

Yes but stag surely rugby is different. GAA is not an international sport.

For me, although Ulster is an entity in itself and one I passionately support and would love to have represented, it is also a stepping stone on a ladder which Ireland is the top of (well arguably its the lions, but thats another debate).

For me the highest honour for an Irish rugby player is to represent Ireland and the National team being successful supercedes provincial success although the two are not mutually exclusive of course.

Clearly I don't think so. Its not I am anti-national team. I pay to watch them play all the time. But just which one means that little bit more. . . I'd be lying if I said it wasn't Munster. Its just another way of thinking. For many people here the 6 Nations was the only show in town many years ago. I spent my teens watching European Rugby and 6 Nations and I just prefer one to the other.

roddersm wrote:

Intotouch wrote:But even though i have less love/attachment to Ireland's success or failure i still prefer the 6n as a competition to the H cup. Again my heart decides.

Do you mind if I ask you why? I really can't understand why some Irish fans prefer their province to their country?

+1

Ireland always comes ahead of Leinster in my mind.
If losing a HCup final with the last kick of the game meant Ireland winning a GS or getting to a WRC Final I'd accept those terms in a second

I would to Pete. I respect your point of view stag but I can't agree with it.

Just out of interest, assuming that you haven't, if you had the choice of representing Munster or Ireland at rugby, at any level, which would you chose and which would you consider the higher honour?

Would you feel differently about an Ireland side with no Munster players in it, assuming of course all players were selected on merit?

Rodds,

Ireland would be a greater honour but I'd rather play in a Heineken Cup final with Munster than get an Ireland cap on some tour to Canada.

I would not be happy to see an Ireland side with no Munster players. Once again i DO support Ireland. I just prefer other competitions to the 6 Nations. It is the 6 Nations not Ireland that is the problem.

The RWC will be a bigger deal to me than Munster.

Fair enough stag. I'm not knocking you here or questioning that you support Ireland and I'm just trying to understand how you'd feel when provincial and national interests conflict. For me it is black and white, Ireland comes first....unless its a tour to canada of course .....

red_stag wrote:Ausker all of that is merely your opinion. The fact its "indisputably the best fans tournament on the planet" and the fact that every game is a final in its own right are just your opinion.

Sorry Red but where did I say those statements were facts? You've taken those statements out of context and prefaced them with the words "the fact" from your own keyboard.

However I agree what I post tends to be my opinion, although others may share it. If it is just me saying the 6N is the best fans' tournament on the planet then that is disputable. OTOH if it is 90% of the world's population saying the same thing then it could be deemed to be indisputable. I reckon there is a big majority of posts on this thread supporting the 6N above other tournaments, so at the very least there is some validity in the statement - not just my personal opinion.

There were a few other opinions espoused that may have some factual basis:
"The 6N attracts support from people who would never watch HEC, 3N, S15 or the World Cup" - Is this not so? Hard to prove for or against but the 6N gets consistently high viewing figures per game.

"It's a "listed" competition, up there with the Open, Wimbledon, Grand National etc. which the other's aren't" - AFAIK it's treated like this certainly in the UK with associated restrictions on who buys the tv rights.

"Still it is probably the only rugby tournament that displaces football from the back pages." - Anecdotally this would seem to be true, but I don't expect you to trawl through back issues to disprove it - I certainly won't.

"The difference between the 6N and all the other competitions is that every game is a final in its own right." - Teams only play each other once unlike the home and away format, and some for an individual trophy such as the Calcutta Cup, so I think it's fair enough to say these games are effectively finals.

I hate to see the 6N undermined, so hence my vociferous defence of it, but one person's opinion is as good as the next.

In fairness Aukster, to say something is indisputable is to say it's a fact.

I think the 6nations is one of the worst tournaments in terms of viewing spectacle. The rugby can be quite negative. Yeah there's lots of hype due to internationals but there aren't bonus points or things that give it that little bit of edge that the HCUP has. again just my opinion

Also would much rather play for Ireland than any other team by some distance.

The Great Aukster wrote:

red_stag wrote:Ausker all of that is merely your opinion. The fact its "indisputably the best fans tournament on the planet" and the fact that every game is a final in its own right are just your opinion.

If it is just me saying the 6N is the best fans' tournament on the planet then that is disputable. OTOH if it is 90% of the world's population saying the same thing then it could be deemed to be indisputable.

I don't get that. If 99% of people think one thing, and 1% of people think the opposite then it is clearly not indisputable.

Besides, this is a matter of opinion. I could come in and say 'for me, the best competition in the NH is the Ballymena U13 Girls Tag Blitz' and that would be my opinion- as valid and as utterly subjective as anyone else's.

To say something is indisputable means it is unable to challenged or denied. To say an opinion based on subjective experience is indisputable makes no sense. Only an objective fact can be indisputable. The fact that Ireland have traditionally played in green throughout history is indisputable. The fact that the Six Nations comprises teams from Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, Italy and France is indisputable. Your opinion that the 6N is the best fans tournament on the planet is your opinion.

Oh YEAH! I got my pedantry all up in yo grill! Oh no I din't- OH YES I DID! Yeah! Yeee-ah!

luckless_pedestrian wrote:In fairness Aukster, to say something is indisputable is to say it's a fact.

I dispute that ........

luckless_pedestrian wrote:In fairness Aukster, to say something is indisputable is to say it's a fact.

Auskter, this is my point. Something that is indisputable is a fact.

The Great Aukster wrote:I hate to see the 6N undermined, so hence my vociferous defence of it, but one person's opinion is as good as the next.

I agree.

Notch wrote:To say something is indisputable means it is unable to challenged or denied. To say an opinion based on subjective experience is indisputable makes no sense. Only an objective fact can be indisputable. The fact that Ireland have traditionally played in green throughout history is indisputable. The fact that the Six Nations comprises teams from Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, Italy and France is indisputable. Your opinion that the 6N is the best fans tournament on the planet is your opinion.

Oh YEAH! I got my pedantry all up in yo grill! Oh no I din't- OH YES I DID! Yeah! Yeee-ah!

Sorry Notch, but both those statements are disputable.
"The fact that Ireland have traditionally played in green throughout history is indisputable." What does "traditionally" mean? For the majority of the time? Is that more than 50% or 90%? What historical period are you taking about? Since rugby was invented or since the IRFU was formed or the 6N?

"The fact that the Six Nations comprises teams from Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, Italy and France is indisputable." Harder to dispute alright but is there any written constitution that says it must be those six teams or is that only a historical coincidence! Would it cease to be the Six Nations if England were relegated and Georgia promoted?

Even scientific laws are thought of as theorys that haven't been unproven, however this isn't a question of semantics, and if it pleases the pedants then I'll cheerfully withdraw the word "indisputable" as I rather not have such pedantry anywhere near my grill (it might ruin the sasages).

Indeed that any theory may be disproven is one of the cornerstones of Science

Notch wrote:Indeed that any theory may be disproven is one of the cornerstones of Science

Paradoxical isn't it?

And hey just watch all that huggin, I'm not that metro sexually reconstituted. If I'd wanted that I'd have been a forward...