The MTO debate

First topic message reminder :

I don't understand why threads are being closed so easily. Yes I do, like many here, believe that Nadal faked an injury today AGAIN. I predicted that he would finish the match and even the championship. Unlike at the AO, you can tell when it's fake. At the AO he was a step slower. Some see it, some don't but at least I am entitled to my view and express it on this forum. That's what we are here for.

Maybe I don't have tangible proof that he faked it (despite winning a Delpotro in form), but noone has proof he did not fake it either, right. We are all expressing views so please LK, stop closing down thread for expressing views on players.

That's the reason many of us joined that forum, whether we are right or wrong.

In fairness, wow did say that the rules should be applied too all players and it isn't Nadal who breaks the time limit rules only.

Also, there's one chart for Fed for that final, how about one for Nadal, I can't believe Fed would take longer than Nadal, especially in that match.

Chart ----> https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

Nadal has taken medical time outs, not strategic time outs. You have no proof he is abusing the game by saying that. He is entitled to take MTOs, the pictures and points that followed suggest he was seriously concerned about the sudden onset of pain - and the grimacing photos back up the pain he was feeling. Of course that's all fakery right?

Lucuisman, thats not the point. Wow claimed Federer did not break time rules. The chart suggests he does.
It doesnt matter if its shorter or longer than Nadal if its over time. Its over time!
We all know Nadal, Djoko, JMDP and many others stretch the time rules...the umpire needs to act!

lydian....

Some will still argue in the face facts though...

luciusmann wrote:In fairness, wow did say that the rules should be applied too all players and it isn't Nadal who breaks the time limit rules only.

Also, there's one chart for Fed for that final, how about one for Nadal, I can't believe Fed would take longer than Nadal, especially in that match.

Yes, exactly where the other chart so comparison can be done.
Nadal took a Mto against Muller, He took MTo at last wimby as well, I am not sure if it was against Petsczner or Hasse. He was losing and then he took an MTO. Why there are no MTOS when he is in a winning postion for example against Mardy Fish?

Tennis as a spectacle should be continuous and not the way Nadal plays and same goes for Serena and Sharapova. Today's second semi was a torture to watch. I am sure that WTA TV ratings are way down.

wow wrote: not sure if it was against Petsczner or Hasse.

And what about the MTO Petchzner took that match with Nadal?
Again, nothing but selectivity posted on this forum...

lydian wrote:

wow wrote: not sure if it was against Petsczner or Hasse.

And what about the MTO Petchzner took that match with Nadal?
Again, nothing but selectivity posted on this forum...

Two wrongs do not make one right and an eye for an eye will leave you blind <wink> Lydian, tbf I do not remember Petsczner's MTO. Are you sure on that?

Guys, as this thread has evolved I've changed the title of it.

wow wrote:

lydian wrote:So wow - what about Tom's chart showing Federer exceeding time limits when you say he never needed such things to win a match linked to the previous sentence about time limits?

Seems there is too much selectivity in which players get negative focus in here.

I havnt seen the chart but tell me frankly as fed has ever been warned of time violation or taking a strategic time out.

Simply scroll up.


https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

Y I Man wrote:Guys, as this thread has evolved I've changed the title of it.

Tenez ain't gonna be a happy man with this

Tom_____ wrote:

wow wrote:

lydian wrote:So wow - what about Tom's chart showing Federer exceeding time limits when you say he never needed such things to win a match linked to the previous sentence about time limits?

Seems there is too much selectivity in which players get negative focus in here.

I havnt seen the chart but tell me frankly as fed has ever been warned of time violation or taking a strategic time out.

Simply scroll up.


https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

I can't see that. It is not working on my computer

wow wrote:

Tom_____ wrote:

wow wrote:

lydian wrote:So wow - what about Tom's chart showing Federer exceeding time limits when you say he never needed such things to win a match linked to the previous sentence about time limits?

Seems there is too much selectivity in which players get negative focus in here.

I havnt seen the chart but tell me frankly as fed has ever been warned of time violation or taking a strategic time out.

Simply scroll up.


https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

I can't see that. It is not working on my computer

Just to summarise then. During Wimbledon 2008 Final, Federer exceeded the ATP 25s rule on serve a total of 38 times. Obviously this doesn't take into account crowd noise and is applied to the letter of the rule, as many people are wrongly arguing for. Time this properly from when the umpires calls the score and you will find that Federer along with the other players are playing largely within the rules save the odd second or two. If people make their own bed, they have to lie in it imo.

http://www.backpagelead.com.au/images/stories/tennis/chela-juan-240211.jpg

I'd like you to all take a look at the pic above....

It shows Chela completely missing the ball but able to play a return shot.

I have it on good authority, from several members of an "important" institution that what we see on TV is actually all CGI generated. It is a conspiracy by the Military to cover up the truth that the world did in fact end on May 21st, but the government didn't want us to know, so they could keep on taxing us.

I urge you to think deeply and believe this, as it concerns all of us on here, it only goes to prove without a shred of doubt that Nadal didn't cheat, he is not actually real, just a figment of a computer artist's imagination, so couldn't possibly have taken an MTO at all, but then that's what the anti-counter-conspiracy theoretical theorists want you to believe.

lydian wrote:Chart ----> https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

Nadal has taken medical time outs, not strategic time outs. You have no proof he is abusing the game by saying that. He is entitled to take MTOs, the pictures and points that followed suggest he was seriously concerned about the sudden onset of pain - and the grimacing photos back up the pain he was feeling. Of course that's all fakery right?

Lucuisman, thats not the point. Wow claimed Federer did not break time rules. The chart suggests he does.
It doesnt matter if its shorter or longer than Nadal if its over time. Its over time!
We all know Nadal, Djoko, JMDP and many others stretch the time rules...the umpire needs to act!

It's obvious that was because Nadal was still drying his arms. Nadal delays the serve of the opponent too, especially at critical points as you can see in the chart.

gallery play wrote:

lydian wrote:Chart ----> https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

Nadal has taken medical time outs, not strategic time outs. You have no proof he is abusing the game by saying that. He is entitled to take MTOs, the pictures and points that followed suggest he was seriously concerned about the sudden onset of pain - and the grimacing photos back up the pain he was feeling. Of course that's all fakery right?

Lucuisman, thats not the point. Wow claimed Federer did not break time rules. The chart suggests he does.
It doesnt matter if its shorter or longer than Nadal if its over time. Its over time!
We all know Nadal, Djoko, JMDP and many others stretch the time rules...the umpire needs to act!

It's obvious that was because Nadal was still drying his arms. Nadal delays the serve of the opponent too, especially at critical points as you can see in the chart.

Now that definitely isn't true as you WOULD get pulled for delaying the server. Thats something they do crack down on

Tom_____ wrote:

gallery play wrote:

lydian wrote:Chart ----> https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

Nadal has taken medical time outs, not strategic time outs. You have no proof he is abusing the game by saying that. He is entitled to take MTOs, the pictures and points that followed suggest he was seriously concerned about the sudden onset of pain - and the grimacing photos back up the pain he was feeling. Of course that's all fakery right?

Lucuisman, thats not the point. Wow claimed Federer did not break time rules. The chart suggests he does.
It doesnt matter if its shorter or longer than Nadal if its over time. Its over time!
We all know Nadal, Djoko, JMDP and many others stretch the time rules...the umpire needs to act!

It's obvious that was because Nadal was still drying his arms. Nadal delays the serve of the opponent too, especially at critical points as you can see in the chart.

Now that definitely isn't true as you WOULD get pulled for delaying the server. Thats something they do crack down on

It was a joke, but there's a bit of truth in it, check the last RG final

John McEnroe on Murray's tactics for Nadal....

"Murray has beaten him on four different occasions, including the US Open semi-final.

I would make sure the umpire is aware of the rules on time-delay warnings. Nadal seems to take his time often, so try to get under his skin. He's got a routine, Murray should say 'I'm not accepting this'.

Clarke James wrote:John McEnroe on Murray's tactics for Nadal....

"Murray has beaten him on four different occasions, including the US Open semi-final.

I would make sure the umpire is aware of the rules on time-delay warnings. Nadal seems to take his time often, so try to get under his skin. He's got a routine, Murray should say 'I'm not accepting this'.

To be honest i think Murray can beat Nadal by playing better than him on the day. I'm not sure Murray has ever been bothered by the pace

Tom_____ wrote:

Clarke James wrote:John McEnroe on Murray's tactics for Nadal....

"Murray has beaten him on four different occasions, including the US Open semi-final.

I would make sure the umpire is aware of the rules on time-delay warnings. Nadal seems to take his time often, so try to get under his skin. He's got a routine, Murray should say 'I'm not accepting this'.

To be honest i think Murray can beat Nadal by playing better than him on the day. I'm not sure Murray has ever been bothered by the pace

Also, the fact that Andy and Rafa have so much of respect for each other and the possibility that McEnroe's suggestion could backfire and disrupt Andy's rhytm would probably mean Andy would not resort to such tactics.

"World number one Rafael Nadal reveals he was minutes away from pulling out of the tournament due to a foot injury picked-up in his fourth-round match with Juan Martin del Potro.

The two-time Wimbledon champion admits that he now has to have local anaesthetic injected into his foot before matches.

The Spanish player believes he will have to be at his best to beat Britain's Andy Murray in the semi-final on Friday."

So he's now pretending so hard to be injured that hes havng injections to numb the pain every match! - absolutely scandalous !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............ cough cough.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/13982961.stm

And you believe him Tom? !!!



More and more journalists around the world, including McEnroe have mentioned his gamesmanship so of course, Nadal has worked very hard on making his side of the story more credible. There are millions of fans at stake here.

Many have started to see his other side....the darker one!

Tenez wrote:And you believe him Tom? !!!



More and more journalists around the world, including McEnroe have mentioned his gamesmanship so of course, Nadal has worked very hard on making his side of the story more credible. There are millions of fans at stake here.

Many have started to see his other side....the darker one!

https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/ttbr1.png

Tenez wrote:And you believe him Tom? !!!



More and more journalists around the world, including McEnroe have mentioned his gamesmanship so of course, Nadal has worked very hard on making his side of the story more credible. There are millions of fans at stake here.

Many have started to see his other side....the darker one!

Do people really care? As a neutral i can honestly say that some of the debate here is ridiculous.

I came on here to discuss Wimbledon. A great British sporting event and 90% of the discussion is about who cheated at what? Why they did it? And who loves who more?

Personally, i don't care if he takes 25s, 45s, 90s or 5 minutes between changeovers. You forget, the opponent gets the same recovery time. It's not really that important. Providing they put on a good show and we get to watch excellent tennis then i really don't see what all the fuss is about.

Tenez wrote:And you believe him Tom? !!!



More and more journalists around the world, including McEnroe have mentioned his gamesmanship so of course, Nadal has worked very hard on making his side of the story more credible. There are millions of fans at stake here.

Many have started to see his other side....the darker one!

And the Oscar for Best Actor goes to …………………… <drum roll> ……………….. RAFAEL NADAL for his role as The Faker in “Quarter Final Sets I have Won” ….

Clarke James wrote:

Tenez wrote:And you believe him Tom? !!!



More and more journalists around the world, including McEnroe have mentioned his gamesmanship so of course, Nadal has worked very hard on making his side of the story more credible. There are millions of fans at stake here.

Many have started to see his other side....the darker one!

Do people really care? As a neutral i can honestly say that some of the debate here is ridiculous.

I came on here to discuss Wimbledon. A great British sporting event and 90% of the discussion is about who cheated at what? Why they did it? And who loves who more?

Personally, i don't care if he takes 25s, 45s, 90s or 5 minutes between changeovers. You forget, the opponent gets the same recovery time. It's not really that important. Providing they put on a good show and we get to watch excellent tennis then i really don't see what all the fuss is about.

So why are you posting on this thread then? Be coherent!

The recovery time benefits one player over the other but that you don't understand it. Professional players do!

Wooffie wrote:

And the Oscar for Best Actor goes to …………………… <drum roll> ……………….. RAFAEL NADAL for his role as The Faker in “Quarter Final Sets I have Won” ….

I was sure you would give him this award too! You are such a big fan of his!

Keep 'em coming, Tenez.

There is a good reason Tom, Nadal follows V2 so closely, that he needs to make everyone on here believe that he is injured, esp some of the conspiracy theorists, so he's going through all this extra paraphernalia just for them.

I don't know who to laugh at first, its so hilarious.

I do wonder if the line is being blurred on purpose by some posters, in as much that, it is a recognised tactic to employ tactical breaks, ie, to upset a players rhythm with racquet changes, tie laces, line calls, audience noise, audience seating habits, string damper changes, etc etc, all little things during a match that help the opposition change the way a match progresses.

Its not called cheating when players employ any or all these tactics, so what if Nadal took an MTO as a tactical break, it was a stupid one because it was absolutely not tactical in any way of an advantage to him, but that's besides the point, there are numerous ways in which to try and put a player off a confidence/dominance run and its viewed by all players as acceptable to a certain degree.

That it happened in the 1st set of a slam seems to be a strange place to have a "tactical" MTO and indeed it gave Del Boy a lift, so as a plan it failed, but since a poster on here thinks that Nadal has a "Dark Side" and is intent on "conspiring" to bring the game of tennis into disrepute and use all his "powers" of the Dark side to be with him, I wonder who else in Tennis is also a member of the Darth Vadar appreciation society.

Tenez wrote:

Clarke James wrote:

Tenez wrote:And you believe him Tom? !!!



More and more journalists around the world, including McEnroe have mentioned his gamesmanship so of course, Nadal has worked very hard on making his side of the story more credible. There are millions of fans at stake here.

Many have started to see his other side....the darker one!

Do people really care? As a neutral i can honestly say that some of the debate here is ridiculous.

I came on here to discuss Wimbledon. A great British sporting event and 90% of the discussion is about who cheated at what? Why they did it? And who loves who more?

Personally, i don't care if he takes 25s, 45s, 90s or 5 minutes between changeovers. You forget, the opponent gets the same recovery time. It's not really that important. Providing they put on a good show and we get to watch excellent tennis then i really don't see what all the fuss is about.

So why are you posting on this thread then? Be coherent!

The recovery time benefits one player over the other but that you don't understand it. Professional players do!

I'm posting because i found something relevant to the debate and as it's an open forum, like yourself, Tenez i'm more than welcome to express my opinion. Is that ok?

Jubbahey wrote:There is a good reason Tom, Nadal follows V2 so closely,

nadal doesn't follow v2, he surely doesn't have time for this.

But of course he does wow, he has to or Tenez's anti-Nadal festivities are a complete and utter waste of time.

Jubbahey wrote:But of course he does wow, he has to or Tenez's anti-Nadal festivities are a complete and utter waste of time.

Then he might be posting here under some pseudonym as well.

wow wrote:

Jubbahey wrote:There is a good reason Tom, Nadal follows V2 so closely,

nadal doesn't follow v2, he surely doesn't have time for this.

Even if he did, it definitely looks like he doesn't give much importance to what's being said against him

Tenez,

something guaranteed to put a smile on your face:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/tennis/3670565/John-McEnroe-tells-Andy-Murray-not-to-put-up-with-Rafa-Nadals-mind-games.html

wow wrote:

Jubbahey wrote:But of course he does wow, he has to or Tenez's anti-Nadal festivities are a complete and utter waste of time.

Then he might be posting here under some pseudonym as well.

Maybe Tenez IS Nadal, trying to whip up support for himself via reverse psychology

According to Sue Barker, Nadal didn't get an injection in the match against Delpo....(but he may have afterwards)........

noleisthebest wrote:Tenez,

something guaranteed to put a smile on your face:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/tennis/3670565/John-McEnroe-tells-Andy-Murray-not-to-put-up-with-Rafa-Nadals-mind-games.html

Yes I saw that. I am pretty sure they are a lot of commentators that think alike and even Mc is careful with teh words he chooses.

They have playing up with the fragile feelings of millions of fans!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/sports/tennis/in-tennis-idea-of-shot-clock-has-some-momentum.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=tennis

Very intersting article. It contradicts those who say here that players don;t mind that extra time taking. Clearly they do!

And article pretty much concludes that the umpires should just simply enforce the current rules, something which just about everyone on this forum agrees.

Tenez wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/01/sports/tennis/in-tennis-idea-of-shot-clock-has-some-momentum.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&ref=tennis

Very intersting article. It contradicts those who say here that players don;t mind that extra time taking. Clearly they do!

The Basketball style (FIBA or NBA) 'shot clock' is not possible in Tennis. There are 'player control' and 'team control' definitions which complicate it and it can be reset or changed under specific situations.

1. A time-limit on receiving/choosing balls for serving.
2. A time-limit on positioning at the baseline to actually hitting the ball with the racquet.
3. Special variants of 1 and 2 for second serves.
4. It would require some one (or some other 'group' of assistant umpires) other than the chair umpire to operate the shot clock.
5. It seems that we are now approaching a multi-umpire Tennis match (similar to Cricket, Basketball, Football, American Football).
6. If Hawkeye can judge lines, why not video replay (like Cricket or American Football) to enforce such timing rules.

Looby's idea that you just get a second serve if you take too much time is interesting.

lydian wrote:And article pretty much concludes that the umpires should just simply enforce the current rules, something which just about everyone on this forum agrees.

Most of the umpiring in ATP or ITF cases is done now using modern computing equipment (aka handheld smart devices). Such devices can implement a variety of timers to notify the chair umpire (or a remote official team can feed such data to the chair umpire) to implement/enforce such rules.

Players and spectators can be allowed visibility to such information for the sake of transparency.

laverfan wrote:Looby's idea that you just get a second serve if you take too much time is interesting.

Yep, love it too.

Yes I dont mind that idea but I'm really in favour of tinkering with the game too much otherwise its going to be the thin end of the wedge and we start tinkering elsewhere, e,g. only 1 duece point, lets on serves count, no breaks between 2 games, etc.
That said, I think the umpires MUST employ the rule no matter who the player is, no player is bigger than the game. And yes I can see some merit in if a player falls foul of the rule they then get a 2nd serve on the next point. They just need to employ the rule though.

I think we have moved beyond discussing nadal only on this thread.

I'm not opposed to the idea that the 25s rule be stringently applied. I do think that people would find that's players only occasionally fall foul of the rule , with the clock starting after the umpire calls score. The problem is tennis is meant to be played in silence , once the clock starts the fans noise would then have a direct impact on the point. Should someone shout out at a bad moment you would gets players asking for the clock to be reset. some fans may take advantage on this position. The only way out is to turn tennis into an arena sport like basketball or football where crowd noise is allowed constantly. I'm not sure that would help tennis particularly. Ultimately I think the current system, but more stringently applied by the umpire maybe best.

lydian wrote:Yes I dont mind that idea but I'm really in favour of tinkering with the game too much otherwise its going to be the thin end of the wedge and we start tinkering elsewhere, e,g. only 1 duece point, lets on serves count, no breaks between 2 games, etc.
That said, I think the umpires MUST employ the rule no matter who the player is, no player is bigger than the game. And yes I can see some merit in if a player falls foul of the rule they then get a 2nd serve on the next point. They just need to employ the rule though.

For the sake of survival/evolution of the game, it may be the only way out. Look at what ATP has done to the doubles game, for example the break point. BTW, it was great to see the 'traditional' doubles at W between Bryans and Lindstedt/Tecau.

The 'gentle' part of the "gentlemen's" is now long gone. Any one recall Roger Taylor playing a 17-year old Borg and replaying the match point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQQfSChtzUU

There was no such discussion of 'shot clocks' prior to the current controversies.

laverfan wrote:

lydian wrote:Yes I dont mind that idea but I'm really in favour of tinkering with the game too much otherwise its going to be the thin end of the wedge and we start tinkering elsewhere, e,g. only 1 duece point, lets on serves count, no breaks between 2 games, etc.
That said, I think the umpires MUST employ the rule no matter who the player is, no player is bigger than the game. And yes I can see some merit in if a player falls foul of the rule they then get a 2nd serve on the next point. They just need to employ the rule though.

For the sake of survival/evolution of the game, it may be the only way out. Look at what ATP has done to the doubles game, for example the break point. BTW, it was great to see the 'traditional' doubles at W between Bryans and Lindstedt/Tecau.

The 'gentle' part of the "gentlemen's" is now long gone. Any one recall Roger Taylor playing a 17-year old Borg and replaying the match point?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQQfSChtzUU

There was no such discussion of 'shot clocks' prior to the current controversies.

NO - But I BET he LOST

Oooops (Blush)

Pressed the wrong *quote* button

Sorry Lydian I was answering Laverfan

:run2: