Irish Provincial teams for next year

First topic message reminder :

Genuinely interested on how Leinster and Munster will shape up over the coming year.
Thinking specifically what the teams will be during the Wc, what they will be after and what they will be at the end.

Below I have listed Ulster with a / being a position I am uncertain over:

15 - Payne, Payne, Payne
11 - Spence, Trimble, Trimble
13 - Cave, Cave/Spence, Cave/Spence
12 - Marshall, Wallace, Wallace/Marshall
11 - Gilroy, Danielli/Gilroy, Gilroy
10 - Humphreys, Humphreys, Humphreys
9 - Marshall, Pienaer, Pienaer
1 - McAllister, Court, McAllister/Court
2 - Kyriacou, Best, Best
3 - Fitzpatrick, Afoa, Afoa
4 - Muller, Muller, Muller
5 - Tuohy, Tuohy/Stevenson, Tuohy/Stevenson
6 - Henry, Ferris, Ferris
7 - Faloon, Faloon/Henry, Faloon/Henry
8 - Wannenberg, Wannenberg, Wannenberg

Assuming predictable WC squad selections i.e. no bolters
As you can see I reckon 2 internationals are Wallace and Court will be fighting to hold on to their provincial spot by the end of the season and that 1 Danielli will not make the team

If you're getting 23 games in a season, you don't need to look elsewhere. Bottom line.

Notch wrote:I can understand that, but Sexton and Shaggy are both Leinster to their core. The equivalent would be John Muldoon for Connacht. Who has also rejected contract offers to stay at his home province.

True, but I meant it more from the point of losing 4 nailed on starters in those 4 positions.

keeping with th e carr mcFadden example, at present Mcfadden has been capped carr not, but now Carr is back at the end of this year when he's had time with the better coaches will he not be a better player and knocking on door for Caps?

I think a few years away getting games will improve you more, especially if Connacht turn out to be a better team than in the past

"If you're getting 23 games in a season, you don't need to look elsewhere. Bottom line."

Yeah that is true wasn't aware he had played that much.

So aside from taking/borrowing players from the other provinces what can be done to help Connacht??

Find people that want to go to their games.

Moving away for gametime has only really worked for Jerry Flannery and Hagan. If Cronin hung around Munster, he would have been first choice hooker last season. And from what I've heard, he wanted to go back to Munster, but since he has left Sherry & Henry have come on the scene, so he isn't needed.

In an interview recently, Reddan also sounded like he was sorry he left Munster for Wasps (even though he won a HCup with them).

I think any young player who aspires to play for their province will want to stay there. A Leinster/Munster reserve will always find it much easier to pick up a job in other European teams than if they play for Connacht. Look how difficult Fionn Carr found it to pick up a contract after leaving Connacht!

Sin é wrote:Look how difficult Fionn Carr found it to pick up a contract after leaving Connacht!

He didn't score a try for months last year. He would have had a better time of it if he left the season before.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:So aside from taking/borrowing players from the other provinces what can be done to help Connacht??

Improving the standard of their home grown players. This is being done slowly IMO. Eoin Griffin, Tiernan O'Halloran and Andrew Browne are all young Connacht natives who look good enough to have starting shirts. More of this is needed.

So what to do about helping Connacht seriously?

Better coaches and facilities?

Heineken Cup exposure will do wonders for them IMO. Galway, which is a real tourist town is going to see how much rugby can do for it,

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:So what to do about helping Connacht seriously?

Better coaches and facilities?

Accorind to the ERC site, they are building a new stand, 2500 capacity

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/14607.php

That's a start

greybeard wrote:

Notch wrote:I can understand that, but Sexton and Shaggy are both Leinster to their core. The equivalent would be John Muldoon for Connacht. Who has also rejected contract offers to stay at his home province.

True, but I meant it more from the point of losing 4 nailed on starters in those 4 positions.

I know. At Ulster it's the same. We've lost Botha, at some point we will lose Pienaar etc. Imports are imports. They move on- whether they are from another province or another country, this is just one place in their career they stop at.

The key for the provinces is home-grown players who spend their whole career at the province. Your O'Connells, Horgans, O'Driscolls, Rory Bests and Trimbles.

Connacht will never be strong until they can stand on their own feet independent of players from outside the province.

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:So aside from taking/borrowing players from the other provinces what can be done to help Connacht??

Improving the standard of their home grown players. This is being done slowly IMO. Eoin Griffin, Tiernan O'Halloran and Andrew Browne are all young Connacht natives who look good enough to have starting shirts. More of this is needed.

And then a promise from us that we won't poach. The IRFU really, really want all decent players playing HEC.

Yes, its essential that those players are left in Connacht to develop. Munster and Leinster are capable of producing their own players.

Ulster generally are less likely to sign from the other three provinces at the moment for a variety of reasons. Instead we tend to bring in guys from overseas who want to make the most of their Irish passports/relatives and guys from the Exiles program.

I've been thinking about this and I'm going risk the wrath of my fellow Ulster supporters and say that I think that the best move for Tommy Bowe and Irish rugby is for him to move Leinster once his Ospreys contract is up.

The style of Rugby they play is perfect for him, he'd be the ideal replacement to Horgan and he'd be able to build up a great understanding with the other Irish backs.

I think things have moved on at Ulster and with Trimble and Gilroy there as well as Gaston, Spence, D'arcy and Cave I'm not sure we need him the way we did before.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see him back but I think Leinster might be the better move at this stage of his career.

[quote="roddersm"]I've been thinking about this and I'm going risk the wrath of my fellow Ulster supporters and say that I think that the best move for Tommy Bowe and Irish rugby is for him to move Leinster once his Ospreys contract is up.

The style of Rugby they play is perfect for him, he'd be the ideal replacement to Horgan and he'd be able to build up a great understanding with the other Irish backs.

I think things have moved on at Ulster and with Trimble and Gilroy there as well as Gaston, Spence, D'arcy and Cave I'm not sure we need him the way we did before.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see him back but I think Leinster might be the better move at this stage of his career.[/quote]

I'd say Leinster might try him at 13 as a replacement for BOD just a thought.

I'd say I'd be absolutely appalled and I'd rather see him turning out for any team outside Ireland than another Irish province.

That would be so awful.

Would it really Notch? I mean where do you see him fitting in at Ulster in the near future? Surely Trimble and Gilroy will be our wingers moving forward.

I'd rather see him in Ireland than outside Ireland. Look it's just a thought, of course I want him back at Ulster but I'm not sure it's the most logical move.

roddersm wrote:Would it really Notch? I mean where do you see him fitting in at Ulster in the near future? Surely Trimble and Gilroy will be our wingers moving forward.

I'd rather see him in Ireland than outside Ireland. Look it's just a thought, of course I want him back at Ulster but I'm not sure it's the most logical move.

Gilroy in the Pro12, Bowe in the HC, surely? All about the depth.

Greybeard I'd be hoping and expecting Gilroy would be a HEC player by then. I don't want to see his development held back.

roddersm wrote:I've been thinking about this and I'm going risk the wrath of my fellow Ulster supporters and say that I think that the best move for Tommy Bowe and Irish rugby is for him to move Leinster once his Ospreys contract is up.

The style of Rugby they play is perfect for him, he'd be the ideal replacement to Horgan and he'd be able to build up a great understanding with the other Irish backs.

I think things have moved on at Ulster and with Trimble and Gilroy there as well as Gaston, Spence, D'arcy and Cave I'm not sure we need him the way we did before.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see him back but I think Leinster might be the better move at this stage of his career.

[banter] Hey! feck off we don't need yer fecken charidy[/banter]

We have a few homegrown potential Shaggy replacements too.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
[banter] Hey! feck off we don't need yer fecken charidy[/banter]

We have a few homegrown potential Shaggy replacements too.

Fine then that's that sorted, get your own Bowe we're keeping him!....Last time I'll do you lot a favour!

We'll take Bowe down here!

On the Connacht issue, there are some decent young native players coming through and I think there are more behind that. They need to be supplemented by signings from other provinces and foreign players but they must not become reliant on those players. They need to build an indigenous spine if they want to grow.

MBTGOG wrote:We'll take Bowe down here!

Typical 1st you steal BJ and now your back for more!

Munster would potentially be the best place to see Bowe but i think he should come back to Ulster.

Trimble, Bowe, Gilroy, Gaston, Payne, D'arcy and potentially Spence. Thats some depth and exactly what we need Rodders. Gilroy will learn more playing and training with Bowe and still be approaching mid 20's when tommy is past 30

roddersm wrote:Would it really Notch? I mean where do you see him fitting in at Ulster in the near future? Surely Trimble and Gilroy will be our wingers moving forward.

I'd rather see him in Ireland than outside Ireland. Look it's just a thought, of course I want him back at Ulster but I'm not sure it's the most logical move.

I would see the three of them fighting over two places- we need that depth of quality. They'd each play lots of rugby together and Gilroy and Bowe can both play fullback.

This is home, this is where the guy belongs!

Standulstermen wrote:
Trimble, Bowe, Gilroy, Gaston, Payne, D'arcy and potentially Spence. Thats some depth and exactly what we need Rodders. Gilroy will learn more playing and training with Bowe and still be approaching mid 20's when tommy is past 30

Yes but Trimble,Payne and Bowe are all 1st team players. I don't see any of those 3 sitting on the bench. That would mean someone like Gilroy would be playing the odd Pro12 game until his mid-20s. Based on what I saw last season I think Gilroy is a season away from being a top player and this season he should nail down a starting spot. Spence too is too good to be a bit part player in my opinion and these guys need game time to reach their potential.

I think the time for Bowe coming home was last year before he extended his contract with the Ospreys. I think with Payne coming we are very well covered in the outside backs for the forseable future and we should trust the young guys to take us forward. If he comes back I'll be delighted but I think we really need to strengthen in other positions more than the outside backs.

Rodders

Gilroy would still get plenty of gametime given that Bowe and Trimble are both managed by the irfu. Also he could earn a spot over them

Standulstermen wrote:Rodders

Gilroy would still get plenty of gametime given that Bowe and Trimble are both managed by the irfu. Also he could earn a spot over them

OK look fair enough I'm just putting it out there to see what people think. A season ago I was really looking forward to Bowe coming back. But since then Gilroy and Spence have really emerged, D'arcy has come from nowhere and we've signed Payne. Trimble will be a talisman for some time yet and Cave has come back with a bang. Gaston gives us some backup.

I think Bowe is fantastic player and I'd love see him back but I'm not sure if we need him now or at least not as much as we need more quality at half back and the back row.

I'm with Rodders on this one. I don't think Bowe will come back to Ireland anyway. I think he is fairly well settled in Wales.

We can't win Magners leagues and Heineken Cups without a proven top class player to come into the team when another proven top class player gets injured or is called up. Look at our rivals in the group, Clermont Auvergne.

Next season they'll have Rougerie, Sivivatu, Russell and Malzieau.

Makes Trimble, Bowe and Gilroy look modest. And if we're aspiring to overtake these teams in the long run...

Good point Notch but we won't win HEC cups if we strengthen were we are strong at the expense of were we are weak.

The french teams are able to pay huge salaries and keep guys who are winding down their careers on the bench.

If we want Gilroy, Spence, Cave, Marshall, D'arcy etc. to be top players then they need to play big games. Trimble, Bowe and Payne are all in their prime and will want/need to start and not just play the odd game and pick up a pay check like Sivuvatu.

At the same time, we've no depth at all in the back three. This is Daniellis last season and he needs to be replaced. Gaston and D'Arcy aren't HC class players, they can't be trusted at that level. That will leave us with only three players I'd be comfortable starting in the Heineken Cup. We ARE weak in the back three.

Bowe would be the perfect signing.

And Leinster have far less need of him than us anyway; Conway, D. Kearney, Fitzgerald, Nacewa- even Horgan keeps going! They have far better players coming through than us in the back three and more of them to boot.

Not to mention the thought of Bowe in a Leinster jersey breaks my heart.

Notch wrote:Bowe would be the perfect signing.

Maybe you're right notch. I'm just a bit concerned he'd upset the apple cart a bit. Trimble is our starting 14 and whereas Bowe is arguably better, Trimbs has been loyal to us. On the other flank I think Gilroy will edge Danielli out in the near future. But I suppose if Payne doesn't stick around long and D'arcy doesn't kick on this season that might leave us a bit short at the back.

Very short. All the top teams rotate and use their benches. I really think over the course of the season all three would get significant gametime, plus we'd probably give gametime to one or two other wingers as well.

OK fair enough. We do need I bigger squad I suppose. I was just wondering lately were he might fit into the current set up and it's not as clear cut as it was a year ago when he would essentially be returning to take his shirt back of a retiring Danielli. I'm not so comfortable with him taking a jersey of a young guy like Gilroy.

Please don't think I don't want him back though.

With the attrition rate in rugby, the physical toll it takes, I think getting somebody to play 20-25 games is an achievement. In Ireland, it's likely an international will play about 15-20 games for their province outside test matches. Often less. There are 28 games in a season not counting playoffs and knockout stages.

And if the IRFU are paying a large chunk of Tommys wage to my mind its purely a case of managing gametime

I see Connacht are building a new stand and I believe the uptake in their seSon tickets has been very positive. Also they just set up their official supporters club recently, all good signs for the future.

If it makes it any easier on this discussion, Bowe looks very happy at the Ospreys and it's probably best not to disrupt that.


Mick,

That's good news on the supporters front. Somehow, they need to make it more attractive to attend games in Galway.

MBTGOG wrote:If it makes it any easier on this discussion, Bowe looks very happy at the Ospreys and it's probably best not to disrupt that.


Mick,

That's good news on the supporters front. Somehow, they need to make it more attractive to attend games in Galway.

The games are normally on a Friday night, which is seen by some as a hindrance, but they should try to make the game a place to go before a night out. A season ticket gets each supporter a free pint at every game, that type of thing will attract the casual fan to begin with, but if a couple of 100 casual fans turn up and half of them stick around that’s great business.

They should try to make it like a night at the dogs I think. Everyone enjoys that.

Mickado wrote:The games are normally on a Friday night, which is seen by some as a hindrance, but they should try to make the game a place to go before a night out. A season ticket gets each supporter a free pint at every game, that type of thing will attract the casual fan to begin with, but if a couple of 100 casual fans turn up and half of them stick around that’s great business.

They should try to make it like a night at the dogs I think. Everyone enjoys that.

The Sportsground isn't really a place to hang out. It's a shed and the toilet facilities are practically non-existant. They can handle a greyhound night no problem, but any more than that and it's a bit, well, cavemanesque.

Any kind of real development is tough because they're sub-letting off the greyhound folks.

How far is it from the Sportsground into town?

MBTGOG wrote:If it makes it any easier on this discussion, Bowe looks very happy at the Ospreys and it's probably best not to disrupt that.

Well, we will see how the O's fare next year but if they are on a downward slope as it appears they may be then can u see Tommy staying there for another few years?

I can't, as happy as he is there, hes a winner and will be wanting to play for a team that has a chance of serious silverware. just my 2 cents.

MBTGOG wrote:How far is it from the Sportsground into town?

Not far at all really. I was in Galway at weekend and went past it. They had Connacht rugby flags on the street lamps all along the street which was good to see.

Yeah they need to sweeten the cherry me thinks.

There needs to be something that will make people want to come to the sportsground.

Someone up a bit said unster would be the perfect place for Bowe,

GOD NO! Back 3 is one of the only positions where you have really good quality and a bit of depth, makes 0 sense

I agree with Ona, I think if the O's start getting too much worse over the enxt season or 2 he will want to come back to ireland, tbh I can see him wanting to come back at some stage anyway

MBTGOG wrote:How far is it from the Sportsground into town?

5-10 minutes from Eyre Square/train station.

Uphill though

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:There needs to be something that will make people want to come to the sportsground.

There is, Munster, Leinster and Ulster

And this year Toulouse!