Irish Provincial teams for next year

First topic message reminder :

Genuinely interested on how Leinster and Munster will shape up over the coming year.
Thinking specifically what the teams will be during the Wc, what they will be after and what they will be at the end.

Below I have listed Ulster with a / being a position I am uncertain over:

15 - Payne, Payne, Payne
11 - Spence, Trimble, Trimble
13 - Cave, Cave/Spence, Cave/Spence
12 - Marshall, Wallace, Wallace/Marshall
11 - Gilroy, Danielli/Gilroy, Gilroy
10 - Humphreys, Humphreys, Humphreys
9 - Marshall, Pienaer, Pienaer
1 - McAllister, Court, McAllister/Court
2 - Kyriacou, Best, Best
3 - Fitzpatrick, Afoa, Afoa
4 - Muller, Muller, Muller
5 - Tuohy, Tuohy/Stevenson, Tuohy/Stevenson
6 - Henry, Ferris, Ferris
7 - Faloon, Faloon/Henry, Faloon/Henry
8 - Wannenberg, Wannenberg, Wannenberg

Assuming predictable WC squad selections i.e. no bolters
As you can see I reckon 2 internationals are Wallace and Court will be fighting to hold on to their provincial spot by the end of the season and that 1 Danielli will not make the team

I think the list I put up there will be the young lads coming to the fore this year. Could you add Fionn Carr to that actually?

Standulstermen wrote:High profile card against Italy does stick in the memory in fairness Sin.

Not half as high profile as Heislip's Red and no one bangs on about that one.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:High profile card against Italy does stick in the memory in fairness Sin.

Not half as high profile as Heislip's Red and no one bangs on about that one.

We weren't really close to beating the All Blacks. We nearly lost to the Italians that day and wasn't he jsut on the pitch or am I mistaken?

Is it just me or have people latched onto this McLaughlin at second row thing a little too much. I always see people talk about him as if he plays there weekly.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:High profile card against Italy does stick in the memory in fairness Sin.

Not half as high profile as Heislip's Red and no one bangs on about that one.

We weren't really close to beating the All Blacks. We nearly lost to the Italians that day and wasn't he jsut on the pitch or am I mistaken?

Ah Pete don't even argue this one. Heaslip got a red card 14 minutes into the match when we were camped on the NZ goal line.

Yeah I will admit that i have, it's more out of hope than expectation to be honest. I think he could become a good second row though probably not world class, I am just throwing a hail mary on him really.

I think he could solve something of a gap there for us when POC/DOC/CUllen/MOD retire and if some of Tuohy, Ryan, Nagle are injured. T

Putting it bluntly I have more faith in him at lock than Toner (I think)

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:High profile card against Italy does stick in the memory in fairness Sin.

Not half as high profile as Heislip's Red and no one bangs on about that one.

I think you will find they did at the time Sin. I would also say that coming within an arses roar of losing to Italy is more high profile than getting duffed by the all blacks in NZ. quel surprise.

By the by im not disagreeing with you, merely pointing out that the yellow for Leamy could have had disastrous consequence. Had ROG not saved us i think Leamy would have (unfairly) been made a scapegoat

"I think you will find they did at the time Sin. I would also say that coming within an arses roar of losing to Italy is more high profile than getting duffed by the all blacks in NZ. quel surprise.

By the by im not disagreeing with you, merely pointing out that the yellow for Leamy could have had disastrous consequence. Had ROG not saved us i think Leamy would have (unfairly) been made a scapegoat"

+1

Pete, he's 27 years old next month. By the time O'Connell, O'Callaghan, O'Driscoll retire he'll be nearly 30. I suspect Tuohy, Ryan, Nagle, Browne will be the front runners to replace them.

red_stag wrote:Is it just me or have people latched onto this McLaughlin at second row thing a little too much. I always see people talk about him as if he plays there weekly.

He does! Very weakly! bah dum dum tushhhhhhh.

Sorry Kev.

It is a tactic. Leinster have used him there 2 or 3 times in the Magners. To have a look perhaps.

He is a 6/8 who can play 4/5 at a push. Can't see him ever do it at Intl level. Maybe occasionally at HC for a small part of a game.

It is about getting an extra more mobile loose forward on the park, without losing too much in the lineout.

The reverse of what we used to do by putting Hines at 6 to get an extra lineout/ Maul option on the park.

We did that away to Breve in the HC to fairly good effect.

I wouldn't rule him out tbh, 30 isn't too old for a lock, altho he has has a lot of injuries in all fairness...eek...not sure...guess we will wait and see

Pete its not too old but by that stage I expect the other options to be far better.

Fingers crossed Stag

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:High profile card against Italy does stick in the memory in fairness Sin.

Not half as high profile as Heislip's Red and no one bangs on about that one.

I think you will find they did at the time Sin. I would also say that coming within an arses roar of losing to Italy is more high profile than getting duffed by the all blacks in NZ. quel surprise.

By the by im not disagreeing with you, merely pointing out that the yellow for Leamy could have had disastrous consequence. Had ROG not saved us i think Leamy would have (unfairly) been made a scapegoat

Sorry - no comparison between the two incidents (isn't Heaslip the first Irish player to get a Red at international level?). Heaslip also missed the Australian game at a time when Ireland had real injury problems.

Heaslip also had got 8 YC's when playing for Leinster. To put that in context, the notorious Alan Quinlan picked up 8 YCs for Munster in his entire career, and he has played about double the games that Heislip has played.

If you are going to hone in on player's discipline, SOB, Heislip & Healy should be first in the Q.

How come Tuohy isn't in the world cup training squad? Is he injured?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Putting it bluntly I have more faith in him at lock than Toner (I think)

Are you MAD sir?

Kev is a couple of inches short for an international lock. Dev just has to reach up and pluck the ball out of the sky.

Kev isnt really an option for international lock, good backrower, but as stag said better options behind him.

Sin

Tuohy got injured in the Connacht game but given that he missed the 6N as well he wasnt going to get selected.

Im not honing in on Leamys discipline at all. However his yellow could have led to him being scapegoated as losing to Italy would have been catastrophic. Heaslip was scapegoated (as was ROG) to some degree at the time as they essentially meant we had no chance to beat NZ. However we were coming off losing to the BaaBaa's so noone was really expecting us to beat NZ. Thats the point im making. In the grand scheme of things us losing to Italy is much more high profile than losing to NZ

Stand,

Personally I would say losing against New Zealand is worse than winning against Italy

Yea Jenifer Toner is a big lad but looks a little timid, big season for him now though - if he doesnt do it now he will end up a squad player.

I think it's fairly obvious a red card is worse than a yellow but I'd definitely agree with StandUlsterman that Leamy would have definitely been made a scapegoat had we lost to Italy. And while it wouldn't be ROG costing the Lions anger, it would be pretty high up there.

I actually really like Tuohy think he's really unfortunate not to be involved. I supposed he's been injured for a lot of the season but he had a really good summer tour and a decent season and Ferris, Kearney and Murphy have been injured for longer and have been whisked in. I know it's different as the fourth lock we'll bring will probably be one that can also play the backrow and thus he wouldn't have much of a chance of going, unlike the other injured I mentioned. I still think it's a poor decision not to involve him in the set up at the minute when it's very likely he'll have a big part to play in our future.

Yes but the point was ROG got us out of jail. We were bloody close to getting beat and those who brought up Heaslips red and ROG's yellow against NZ would have gone to town (and to some extent they have anyway) on Leamy

Tuohy has been wickedly unfortunate with injuries. I think he was injured the week before the first 'A' game during the 6N. His form was terrific at that point. Hasnt quite hit the heights since but was looking good until the Connacht game

Standup - only people who are looking for scapegoats would do that. Healy & Ross get an easy ride for the no of penalties they give away in the scrumthat cost us games. ROG's red card was in the prevention of a try. Leamy was penalised for hand in the ruck - but that was the only penalty he gave away that day whereas others gave away numerous ones.

You will all be delighted to hear that Marcus Horan is obviously not out of the IRFU picture as he is interviewed at Carton House talking about the world cup on the IRFU website. From the video clips, its good to see Jerry Flannery & Tomas O'Leary tearing around the place.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/play/media/id/8845

I've had this debate before with some people on here, but I think Tuohy isn't tall enough to make it as an international lock.

6'5 is tall enough - just, certainly never stopped Brad Thorne.

Thats exactly the sort of second row Tuohy is, devestating in the loose. Makes ground every time he gets the ball, always gets over the gain line.

Think he still has a good future with Ireland after O'Connell and O'Callaghan.

Scrums are always a lottery in that regard but penalties at ruck time are an issue for this ireland team. Leamy, DOC, Best, SOB, Healy and numerous others were guilty of giving away silly penalties during the 6N. Needs cut out

Sin é wrote:Standup - only people who are looking for scapegoats would do that. Healy & Ross get an easy ride for the no of penalties they give away in the scrumthat cost us games. ROG's red card was in the prevention of a try. Leamy was penalised for hand in the ruck - but that was the only penalty he gave away that day whereas others gave away numerous ones.

You will all be delighted to hear that Marcus Horan is obviously not out of the IRFU picture as he is interviewed at Carton House talking about the world cup on the IRFU website. From the video clips, its good to see Jerry Flannery & Tomas O'Leary tearing around the place.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/play/media/id/8845

I've had this debate before with some people on here, but I think Tuohy isn't tall enough to make it as an international lock.

Rog's yellow against new zealand was as stupid as heaslips and nearly even more so. The red card changed everything, but new zealand scored three tries when he was off and any chance of keeping it close was lost.

I though Leamy was very unfortunate against Italy, it was his first penalty conceded and it was a 'good' penalty to give away but he took one for the team and its unfair that it keeps getting brought up as a stick to beat him. He hasn't played well for munster since the six nations but his discipline hasn't been bad this season, especially compared to other Irish backrowers.

Also for the world cup squad if it comes down to a decision between ryan and mclaughlin, ryan will probably be taken and rightly so imo. Ryan has much more experience of playing 6 than mclaughlin has of playing lock.

Standulstermen wrote:2011-12 will be the year of the youngster. heard it here first

True stand but you don't qualify for youngster status in Ireland until you're at least 29 (31 for a prop)....

Heaslips red card was lierally the dumbest thing I've seen on a rugby field. Why would you knee a fella in the head when you're camped on the opposition line? I don't remember what Leamy's offence vs Italy was but no doubt it wasn't something as idiotic as this.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:Standup - only people who are looking for scapegoats would do that. Healy & Ross get an easy ride for the no of penalties they give away in the scrumthat cost us games. ROG's red card was in the prevention of a try. Leamy was penalised for hand in the ruck - but that was the only penalty he gave away that day whereas others gave away numerous ones.

You will all be delighted to hear that Marcus Horan is obviously not out of the IRFU picture as he is interviewed at Carton House talking about the world cup on the IRFU website. From the video clips, its good to see Jerry Flannery & Tomas O'Leary tearing around the place.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/matchdaytv/play/media/id/8845

I've had this debate before with some people on here, but I think Tuohy isn't tall enough to make it as an international lock.

Rog's yellow against new zealand was as stupid as heaslips and nearly even more so. The red card changed everything, but new zealand scored three tries when he was off and any chance of keeping it close was lost.

I though Leamy was very unfortunate against Italy, it was his first penalty conceded and it was a 'good' penalty to give away but he took one for the team and its unfair that it keeps getting brought up as a stick to beat him. He hasn't played well for munster since the six nations but his discipline hasn't been bad this season, especially compared to other Irish backrowers.

Also for the world cup squad if it comes down to a decision between ryan and mclaughlin, ryan will probably be taken and rightly so imo. Ryan has much more experience of playing 6 than mclaughlin has of playing lock.

ROG must be some defender if he was the one responsible for the ABs scoring 3 tries when he was in the bin The ABs had scored 2 tries already by the time he got a yellow card in an effort to stop the ABs 3rd try, just 2 minutes after their 2nd try. The ABs scord 9 tries that day. 3 of them with ROG off, 8 when Heaslip was off.

Artful_Dodger wrote:6'5 is tall enough - just, certainly never stopped Brad Thorne.

Thats exactly the sort of second row Tuohy is, devestating in the loose. Makes ground every time he gets the ball, always gets over the gain line.

Think he still has a good future with Ireland after O'Connell and O'Callaghan.

The ABs don't use the lineout like Ireland does. In the match against Ireland which Tuohy played in, even though Boric (6'7") was Thorne's partner on the day, out of the 11 AB lineouts, Thorn didn't claim one (and Boric stole one Irish one).

By the way, Whitlock (6'8") made his debut for the ABs, coming on for Thorn on 57 mins and he won 2 lineouts for the ABs and scored 2 tries.

Tuohy might have a chance if Ireland had some 6'7/6'8" partner for him which seems to be the minimum size now for a lock (Courtney Lawes 6'7", Richie Gray 6'10", Alastair Kellock 6'8"). Gray stole 3 lineouts from Ireland in the 6Ns.

In the game against Northampton, Ulster lost 4 (out of 8) of their own throws. And Tuohy was replaced after 56 mins having won only 1 LO.

Not being fit for the 6ns or last years AIs, has not stopped Marcus Horan being involved in the world cups squad, so i would not accept that as a reason why Tuohy is not involved in this one.

Standulstermen wrote:Scrums are always a lottery in that regard but penalties at ruck time are an issue for this ireland team. Leamy, DOC, Best, SOB, Healy and numerous others were guilty of giving away silly penalties during the 6N. Needs cut out

I think the breakdown was also a bit of a lottery during the 6Ns. Didn't Kidney say he had sought clarification from the refs on their interpretation of the laws at the breakdown. Their interpretation changed for the England game and hey presto Ireland stopped giving away penalties at the breakdown.

Sin é wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:6'5 is tall enough - just, certainly never stopped Brad Thorne.

Thats exactly the sort of second row Tuohy is, devestating in the loose. Makes ground every time he gets the ball, always gets over the gain line.

Think he still has a good future with Ireland after O'Connell and O'Callaghan.

The ABs don't use the lineout like Ireland does. In the match against Ireland which Tuohy played in, even though Boric (6'7") was Thorne's partner on the day, out of the 11 AB lineouts, Thorn didn't claim one (and Boric stole one Irish one).

By the way, Whitlock (6'8") made his debut for the ABs, coming on for Thorn on 57 mins and he won 2 lineouts for the ABs and scored 2 tries.

Tuohy might have a chance if Ireland had some 6'7/6'8" partner for him which seems to be the minimum size now for a lock (Courtney Lawes 6'7", Richie Gray 6'10", Alastair Kellock 6'8"). Gray stole 3 lineouts from Ireland in the 6Ns.

In the game against Northampton, Ulster lost 4 (out of 8) of their own throws. And Tuohy was replaced after 56 mins having won only 1 LO.

Not being fit for the 6ns or last years AIs, has not stopped Marcus Horan being involved in the world cups squad, so i would not accept that as a reason why Tuohy is not involved in this one.

Pretty nonsensical post, I dont really see your point with all these heights, and some of the heights you have posted are wrong. The lineout is determined by a combination of the hookers throwing, quality of the lifting, making the right call and timing it right and skill in the air. Hence why O'Connell has always been seen as one of the best in the lineout despite being 6'6. If you think its as simple as the tallest will jump the highest and win the ball then you are mistaken, otherwise Toner would be unstopppable. 6'5 might be a weakness in the lineout but its about what they offer elsewhere. You also point out that it would be good if at 6'5 Tuohy had a taller partner - which is precisely what he will have in the form of either Donnacha Ryan (6'7) or Devin Toner (6'11)

As for Tuohy not being involved in the WC squad, I think an awful lot of Kidneys Munster bias is coming through once again. The practical joke that is Tony Buckley was bad enough, but Marcus Horan and Mick O'Driscoll?? Kidney's having a laugh, he'll be bringing back John Hayes next. How Donnacha Ryan has been picked ahead of Tuohy I don't know.

What I will say is after Cullen, O'Connell and O'Callaghan are gone, which will all be at around the same time, Ireland are going to need a lot more at second row than Ryan and Toner.

Dodger,

Isn't Tuohy injured?

Nope, not right now he isn't. To the best of my knowledge.

Okay, must have been mistaken. I thought I'd seen it here that he'd been injured and that was why he wasn't in the reckoning for the World Cup.

He was injured for the Six Nations and just coming back from injury in the Autumn Internationals. That has meant he hasn't been in any squads this past season.

Unlucky. That probably cost him a shot at the RWC.

So Dodger believes that Ryan is a joke to be picked ahead of him due to the fact he played really well for Munster in the run in to the Magners League triumph.

"How Donnacha Ryan has been picked ahead of Tuohy I don't know."

I dont think I said Ryan is a joke anywhere.

Really you could make the same argument with Mick O'Driscoll he's a 5, and a similar player to O'Connell and Cullen but no where near as good. Ridiculous that Tuohy has been left out.

I don't agree with O'Driscoll but I doubt he'll make the 30. So doesn't bother me really.

Sorry, joke was the wrong word to use. You believe it to be bias though.

I went a bit over the top on Buckley, I think Ryan is a good player, but when Kidney is picking the likes of Buckley, Horan, M.O'Driscoll you really have to wonder, Leamy has always done well out of being liked by Kidney. After his last performances for Ireland in NZ its ludicrous not to have Tuohy at least in the preliminary squad.

I remember him being decent and scoring a good surprise try but nothing special that merits selection a year later.

Baring in mind hes been out injured several times since, very unfortunate timing each time and the season hes had with Ulster I would have him as 4th best lock after O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen. Apparantly Kidney see's him as 6th.

Maybe he is the fourth best lock but Ryan is probably the best option to take in the squad as fourth lock given his ability to play blind side flanker as well.

I'm a big fan of Donnacha Ryan who had a very strong end of season.

Tuohy can be just as good but he was unlucky with injuries at the wrong time, and he's unfortunate. I don't think there is any evidence of bias; sometimes coaches just have to make those tough calls and this time Tuohy is the unlucky one.

Hopefully we will get 23 man squads at intl level soon too.

No thanks.

By the by im not disagreeing with you, merely pointing out that the yellow for Leamy could have had disastrous consequence.

But it didn't.

Heaslip's red card helped us on the way to conceding 60+ points.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:6'5 is tall enough - just, certainly never stopped Brad Thorne.

Thats exactly the sort of second row Tuohy is, devestating in the loose. Makes ground every time he gets the ball, always gets over the gain line.

Think he still has a good future with Ireland after O'Connell and O'Callaghan.

The ABs don't use the lineout like Ireland does. In the match against Ireland which Tuohy played in, even though Boric (6'7") was Thorne's partner on the day, out of the 11 AB lineouts, Thorn didn't claim one (and Boric stole one Irish one).

By the way, Whitlock (6'8") made his debut for the ABs, coming on for Thorn on 57 mins and he won 2 lineouts for the ABs and scored 2 tries.

Tuohy might have a chance if Ireland had some 6'7/6'8" partner for him which seems to be the minimum size now for a lock (Courtney Lawes 6'7", Richie Gray 6'10", Alastair Kellock 6'8"). Gray stole 3 lineouts from Ireland in the 6Ns.

In the game against Northampton, Ulster lost 4 (out of 8) of their own throws. And Tuohy was replaced after 56 mins having won only 1 LO.

Not being fit for the 6ns or last years AIs, has not stopped Marcus Horan being involved in the world cups squad, so i would not accept that as a reason why Tuohy is not involved in this one.

Pretty nonsensical post, I dont really see your point with all these heights, and some of the heights you have posted are wrong. The lineout is determined by a combination of the hookers throwing, quality of the lifting, making the right call and timing it right and skill in the air. Hence why O'Connell has always been seen as one of the best in the lineout despite being 6'6. If you think its as simple as the tallest will jump the highest and win the ball then you are mistaken, otherwise Toner would be unstopppable. 6'5 might be a weakness in the lineout but its about what they offer elsewhere. You also point out that it would be good if at 6'5 Tuohy had a taller partner - which is precisely what he will have in the form of either Donnacha Ryan (6'7) or Devin Toner (6'11)

As for Tuohy not being involved in the WC squad, I think an awful lot of Kidneys Munster bias is coming through once again. The practical joke that is Tony Buckley was bad enough, but Marcus Horan and Mick O'Driscoll?? Kidney's having a laugh, he'll be bringing back John Hayes next. How Donnacha Ryan has been picked ahead of Tuohy I don't know.

What I will say is after Cullen, O'Connell and O'Callaghan are gone, which will all be at around the same time, Ireland are going to need a lot more at second row than Ryan and Toner.

The point I'm making with all those height stats is that 6'6" is now considered a tad on the small size for an interntional lock. You may have noticed that POC & DOC had a tough day against the Scottish lineout. Mick O'Driscoll is an excellent club lock, but he is 6'5" and does not do as well at international level when he comes up against guys who are a couple of inches taller.

Ian Nagle* (6'6"), MOTM (partnered by Billy Holland) when Munster played Ulster in Ravenhill (Muller & Barker - Tuohy came on for 20 mins or so) has a far better chance of making it at international level than Deven Toner, who does pretty much win all his lineouts when he plays, but doesn't contribute enough elsewhere.

The reason why Ryan is picked is because he is a good lock who is unfortunate enough to be behind two Lions & when he could have had his chance with POC out, he was out for a couple of months (got injured in the 6Ns - and probably why Tuohy got his chance to go on tour). He also partnered Toner for the Churchill Cup win. He also can play to a decent level in the backrow.

Just for the record, the only negative comment I have made about Tuohy is that he is not tall enough for international rugby - and I'm putting him in the same category as Mick O'Driscoll in that respect. The reason why Mick O'Driscoll made the world cup 40+ man squad is that he will be more useful in training for POC, DOC & Cullen.

The point I'm making with all those height stats is that 6'6" is now considered a tad on the small size for an interntional lock.

Who considers 6'6 as "a tad on the small size" apart from you?

I don't think this issue over height disqualifies a player from international rugby; it depends on the balance of the pack. If you have good jumpers in the back row and a good lineout operator partnering a 6'5/6'6 player at lock then variation and accuracy in the lineout means those few inches aren't missed as much as if all your lineout ball is going to your two locks.

I think in the circumstances where you have good jumpers in the backrow, a slightly shorter lock can be very effective at all levels of the game.

At Ulster, we use Wannenburg/Ferris/Diack etc. as jumpers, so we always have at least three and sometimes four jumpers, we also have a few rare calls where we use the 7 (most often Faloon) or the short lineout to the prop at the front.

Ireland use Ferris and Heaslip well as jumpers. You'd worry more about Tuohy if one or both of those players was absent, but if we started with both it wouldn't be a big issue for me. I have to say on merit I would go for Ryan at this time for the RWC squad, but I'm sure Tuohy will have opportunities in the future.