Scottish Open

by SetupDeterminesTheMotion Wed 06 Jul 2011, 3:59 pm

A little £10 on GMac at 20/1....that will do nicely.

by JPX Wed 06 Jul 2011, 4:15 pm

Looking at the weather up their today, I'm leaning towards a bad weather links specialist - Paul Lawrie?

How about an American? Is Martin Laird playing?

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 06 Jul 2011, 4:32 pm

JPX wrote:...How about an American? Is Martin Laird playing?

by Dave The Jackal Wed 06 Jul 2011, 6:29 pm

The forecast is pretty wet and thundery, BUT there is very little wind forecast on any of the 4 days. Having played Castle Stuart a couple of times (it's fantastic BTW), I think the pros could potentially murder it if there's no wind.

by Doon the Water Wed 06 Jul 2011, 8:09 pm

Wet and thundery, ideal low scoring links weather then.

Whit aboot they blasted midgies though? Is Castle Stuart a hot spot?
Might be interesting to see pros playing in a midge net.

by JAS Wed 06 Jul 2011, 11:12 pm

looks like tomorrow will be the windiest of the week with the wind out of the East. Having played it as well I agree that the pros could potentially murder it if it's benign. Think a lot will depend on pin placements. Can't wait to see if the telly does it justice, it really is a stunning setting.

As I said on another thread I think Mickelson can do well here. Also have a sneaking suspicion Sergio might well be in the mix come Sunday afternoon.

by NedB-H Wed 06 Jul 2011, 11:44 pm

New course for the tour, so expecting the winner to be someone experienced, could be good for Westwood this one. Looking forward to it though, should be much better to watch than LL.

And welcome to the board Dave Smile

by Dave The Jackal Thu 07 Jul 2011, 11:08 am

Cheers, NedB-H. Took me a wee while to find my way across from 606 to 606v2. I've been posting on JA606 ... which is much better for the Scottish footie, but complete tumbleweed for Golf!!! Very Happy

by sharrison01 Thu 07 Jul 2011, 11:26 am

JAS, can only assume that the TV does do it justice - that course looks absolutely stunning and what a setting for it?!?

Interestingly, on their website it states the green fees for anyone wishing to play it at £160 and then something like £97 for Scottish residents and £200 a fourball for local residents. Great way of funding the club really - wish there were things like that down here!

by JAS Thu 07 Jul 2011, 11:52 am

Aye it's not cheap, despite my accent I can't claim Scottish residency anymore Sad

I played it last day in April, they were doing a 36 hole offer for £170. Played the 36 in a day but with better planning could have spread it over a couple of days (the offer covered playing the 2 rounds within 4 days but was only available until 30th April). Shot my handicap (7) in the morning and just over it in the afternoon. Played Dornoch the following day in a comp & shot 94, I know my game can fluctuate from day to day but it was my scores that weekend that made me think the pros might tear it apart this week.

The only downside to everyone agreeing that it's a stunning setting is that everyone will want to play it. With that kind of demand the green fee will probably remain disappointingly high Sad

by super_realist Thu 07 Jul 2011, 11:57 am

They have a similar Scottish Residents deal at Kingsbarns for around 80 I think (usual green fee is about £185 I think), fortunately I get it for £25 a round. Wink

by Yadsendew Thu 07 Jul 2011, 12:50 pm

I notice that Philip Price has just had a hole in one on the eleventh - went from +1 to -1. Good news for Phil because he's recently had a few bad weeks. This must be the first tour hole in one at Castle Stuart?

by Dave The Jackal Thu 07 Jul 2011, 1:43 pm

sharrison01 wrote:JAS, can only assume that the TV does do it justice - that course looks absolutely stunning and what a setting for it?!?

Interestingly, on their website it states the green fees for anyone wishing to play it at £160 and then something like £97 for Scottish residents and £200 a fourball for local residents. Great way of funding the club really - wish there were things like that down here!

---------

Yes, there are no members, mate. Just a 3 tier pay and play structure. I'm a Scottish, but not Moray, resident and have played it twice for about £90 a round. Worth every penny. Shame the spectators probably aren't going to see too much of it in nice weather. I played it in glorious sunshine a few weeks ago, and the views across the Moray Firth were stunning.

As predicted, looks like the pros are tearing it up a bit without any real wind. Pretty much the whole field are under par! Larrazabal (at +6) must have been on the whisky last night. Laugh

by baboo800 Thu 07 Jul 2011, 1:48 pm

JPX wrote:Looking at the weather up their today, I'm leaning towards a bad weather links specialist - Paul Lawrie?

How about an American? Is Martin Laird playing?

What an idiot

by Doon the Water Thu 07 Jul 2011, 1:55 pm

Baboo
Is it not ironic that you of all people can't spot a bit of joshing.

JPX(' Yahoo

')

by baboo800 Thu 07 Jul 2011, 1:57 pm

Doon ,what the f**k does joshing mean

by Yadsendew Thu 07 Jul 2011, 1:58 pm

Me thinks someone missed the point

no

idea

by JPX Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:11 pm

Sorry Baboon, do you not rate Paul Lawrie's chances?

Good to see Monty and Campbell playing well.

by Dave The Jackal Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:16 pm

Good to see Monty and Campbell playing well.

---------

Absolutely. Particularly delighted for Monty. Hope he can keep it up. Local residents are also delighted he won't be jumping into the Moray Firth if he wins, allaying fears of a tsunami on the northern shoreline. Whistle

by baboo800 Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:17 pm

[quote="JPX"]Sorry Baboon, do you not rate Paul Lawrie's chances?

Good to see Monty and Campbell playing well.[/quote

My point is that Martin laird is Scottish not American

by NedB-H Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:18 pm

9 for Snedeker on the 2nd?!? Erm

by JDandfries Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:21 pm

[quote="baboo800"]

JPX wrote:Sorry Baboon, do you not rate Paul Lawrie's chances?

Good to see Monty and Campbell playing well.[/quote

My point is that Martin laird is Scottish not American

by Dave The Jackal Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:23 pm

NedB-H wrote:9 for Snedeker on the 2nd?!?

Guess he must have been on the beach a couple of times! It is very close! Can't wait to see some coverage tonight.

by JPX Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:29 pm

[quote="baboo800"]

JPX wrote:Sorry Baboon, do you not rate Paul Lawrie's chances?

Good to see Monty and Campbell playing well.[/quote

My point is that Martin laird is Scottish not American

Ooooh I see. Sorry about that. As Martin would say..."my bad".

by JDandfries Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:30 pm

JPX - or as he might say 'gawd dammitt'

by JPX Thu 07 Jul 2011, 2:37 pm

Indeed JDandfries

I saw the Scottish flag by his name on the leaderboard but assumed it was a mistake.

Thanks for putting me straight Baboon, no need to be so rude though! Whistle

by Doon the Water Thu 07 Jul 2011, 9:55 pm

JPX if you are from the USA, all is forgiven, I can understand your error.
If you are from England I will credit you with a good sense of humour and please explain to Baboo what joshing is.

by JPX Fri 08 Jul 2011, 8:59 am

I am indeed from England, it was just a bit of a light hearted joke (Baboon, that's also known as "joshing" old boy), I was fully aware of Martin Laird being Scottish as everyone but Baboon could obviously see.

I see another Scotsman is topping the leaderboard, Scott Jamieson. Good show.

by hend085 Fri 08 Jul 2011, 9:17 am

hey guys. anyone watching Mickelson today?..... playing flop shots off tight lies when clearly not the shot to play!
seems to play the flop shots just because he enjoys them!..almost as if he thinks hes too good to play a texas wedge!

by EmmDee57 Fri 08 Jul 2011, 10:46 am

hend085 wrote:hey guys. anyone watching Mickelson today?..... playing flop shots off tight lies when clearly not the shot to play!
seems to play the flop shots just because he enjoys them!..almost as if he thinks hes too good to play a texas wedge!

Phil can't play links, not many Americans can. They're too used to calm conditions week in week out with green speeds that are always the same. This week, although they might be slow(ish) at 10 or 11 on the Stimp, if it's downwind then they'll seem much faster or into the wind much slower.

Personally I like links golf as it brings out some inventive shots rather than lobbing wedges directly at the flag.

by Diggers Fri 08 Jul 2011, 10:56 am

Its funny how many Americans have won the Open considering they cant play links golf. To me what is truly shocking is how badly the Brits who were brought up on links golf play it. Four winners in what 60 years compared to god alone knows how many American winners.
How come the likes of Curtis, O'Meara and Cink, Duval, Leonard and Lehman to name but a few can win the Claret Jug despite very limited experience on links courses and yet world class players such as Clarke, Monty, Westwood have failed despite the benefit of a grounding playing links ?

by hend085 Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:04 am

its a very good point diggers. you would imagine if there was ever gonna be "journeymen" winners then they would be british/irish rather than the likes of Hamilton/Curtis and watts (who ran M' O M close in Birkdale).
It will be interesting to see if many of the American young guns that have emerged in recent years through the collegiate system manage to pick up the links game- they all seem to play the 60 degree throw it up the air shot from everywhere around the greens even more so that in years gone past.

by SmithersJones Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:06 am

Diggers wrote:Its funny how many Americans have won the Open considering they cant play links golf. To me what is truly shocking is how badly the Brits who were brought up on links golf play it. Four winners in what 60 years compared to god alone knows how many American winners.
How come the likes of Curtis, O'Meara and Cink, Duval, Leonard and Lehman to name but a few can win the Claret Jug despite very limited experience on links courses and yet world class players such as Clarke, Monty, Westwood have failed despite the benefit of a grounding playing links ?

I think it's a bit of a fallacy, this idea that Brits have a links grounding. Monty, yes, maybe Clarke too, but Westwood won't have played much more links golf growing up in Worksop than most septics, nor would Faldo in his day. Kaymer proved himself to be a great links player at the Dunhill last year, playing the ball along the ground, but links to him growing up simply meant left!

by Diggers Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:10 am

I dont agree really Smithers. Sure Westwood was from Worksop but Id imagine when he was playing various amateur events around the country a lot of them were on links courses.
And Id guess even Kaymer came over here for a few events as an amateur. I know the likes of Segio and Olly used to.

by SmithersJones Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:13 am

I didn't mean to suggest they didn't play it at all, simply that it won't have been a big enough part of their overall experience to offer any real advantage. All top players can hit the ball low, and it doesn't take more than a few holes, especially if with a good local caddy, for them to work out how to play the short shots. Except evidently for Mickelson.

by Diggers Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:16 am

Its not just about hitting it low though, its about using the contours of the course as well.
Anyway it still doesnt really answer my question, if the yanks cant play links golf why have they done so well at the Open ?

by JPX Fri 08 Jul 2011, 11:35 am

Good points Diggers and I have to say history shows the Americans are actually very good links players. They do have links courses in America, maybe not links as we know it but they require similar shot making.

True about elite amateurs in Britain too, a very high % of tournaments are played on links courses. When amateurs get to a certain level, they rarely play golf at their home club but more on the unnoficial amateur circuit: British Amateur, St Andrews Links Trophy, English / Scottish Amateur and so on, and obviously Ireland have links courses a plenty.

It's a very good argument, considering the links background why haven't the Brits been successful at The Open?

by SmithersJones Fri 08 Jul 2011, 12:26 pm

Sorry, I still think it's overstated. Yes, a few amateur events here are played on links courses, but top amateurs are playing and practising all year round and those tournaments, regardless of their importance, are a small part of their overall game. Also, at the end of the day golf is golf. If you hit it in the fairway, then on the green it doesn't really matter how many or how few trees there are on the course. (runsforcoverbeforethebarrageofabusefromlinkslovers)

by George1507 Fri 08 Jul 2011, 12:42 pm

JPX wrote:

True about elite amateurs in Britain too, a very high % of tournaments are played on links courses. When amateurs get to a certain level, they rarely play golf at their home club but more on the unnoficial amateur circuit: British Amateur, St Andrews Links Trophy, English / Scottish Amateur and so on, and obviously Ireland have links courses a plenty.

The Amateur Championship is always played on links courses and the Scottish Amateur usually is, but the English Amateur Championship is not played on links courses. I think it's entirely wrong to say that amateurs play lots on links courses - unless they happen to be a member of a club at the seaside.

I don't see why most Brits have any advantage over any other nationality when it comes to links golf, especially in these days of watered greens and fairways.

by JPX Fri 08 Jul 2011, 1:07 pm

George1507 wrote: but the English Amateur Championship is not played on links courses.

List of previous courses on the rota for the English shows otherwise:

Royal St Georges
Saunton
Lytham St Annes
St. Mellion
Royal Liverpool
Royal Cinqu Ports
Birkdale
Hillside
Burnham & Berrow
Formby

by Diggers Fri 08 Jul 2011, 1:54 pm

So if we are to accept that no advantage is gained by growing up on the isles that have the vast majority of links courses in the world.......which I personally dont by the way but there you go....then the conclusion as to why Brits dont win the Open very often is because they just arent very good at links golf. And clearly the Americans are as is proved by their great success.

by SmithersJones Fri 08 Jul 2011, 2:01 pm

Diggers wrote:So if we are to accept that no advantage is gained by growing up on the isles that have the vast majority of links courses in the world.......which I personally dont by the way but there you go....then the conclusion as to why Brits dont win the Open very often is because they just arent very good at links golf. And clearly the Americans are as is proved by their great success.

Like I said, golf is golf. If anything, the success of the americans proves there's nothing really that different about links golf.

by Diggers Fri 08 Jul 2011, 2:19 pm

Going back about 40 posts my initial point was that Americans are not in fact poor links players, quite the contrary as their record shows.

by SmithersJones Fri 08 Jul 2011, 2:20 pm

Diggers wrote:Going back about 40 posts my initial point was that Americans are not in fact poor links players, quite the contrary as their record shows.

Which assumes that links golf is different. I'm suggesting it's not.

by Diggers Fri 08 Jul 2011, 2:25 pm

Fair enough, if you think that St Georges will play the same as Augusta thats your call.

by SmithersJones Fri 08 Jul 2011, 2:46 pm

Diggers wrote:Fair enough, if you think that St Georges will play the same as Augusta thats your call.

You're very good at putting words in other people's mouths to try to stoke up an argument, aren't you Diggers? I assume that's where your name comes from?

But if you hit 18 fairways and 18 greens, then yes they will play the same. If the wind were to blow at 30mph Augusta the problems would be the same, indeed greens would be virtually unplayable. It just so happens that it rarely gets that strong there. It may blow at RSG, but in reality when was the last time the Open was played in consistent strong winds? Last year the wind blew on Friday after a dead calm Thursday and took Rory's chances away with it. But even that only affected half the field, and Loius was lucky enough to be in the other half. Aside from that, and the odd rainy day, where the rain softens the course so countering the effect of the wind to a degree, when has the Open required 'links' play as opposed to target golf for all 4 days in recent years?

by Diggers Fri 08 Jul 2011, 3:29 pm

I have no interest in having an argument without you but equally Im not going to agree with something you say when I dont remotely think you are correct. No is the answer re the name, its not.
Youve just stated yourself that one afternoon blew away half the field, quite a major effect on the tournament I'd say, surely the point is it doesnt need to blow for all 4 days ?
The rough on a links course can also be very different from that of a parkland course and require different strategies and techniques. And shots required around the green can be very different as well, or having a range of shots can be useful.
Dont get me wrong, Im not a fan of links golf but I think it is fairly unique in the world of golf. Would you be happy if the Open wasn't played at a links course ? Im not trying to put words in your mouth here, I would myself be quite happy if that happened.

by hend085 Fri 08 Jul 2011, 3:43 pm

to say the game is the exact same if you hit 18 greens and 18 fairways is a bit of a stupid comment in fairness!

by SmithersJones Fri 08 Jul 2011, 3:43 pm

I think that's the point though. The winner of a golf tournament at the highest level won't spend that much time in the rough and won't miss that many greens. The fact that the windy Friday afternoon impacted the tournament to the extent that the runaway first round leader, who supposedly grew up playing links golf, couldn't break 80 means that it's not how good a links player you are but where you are in the draw that is more important. Louis will have played virtually no links golf, and I dare say if he'd been in the same side of the draw as Rory we'd have hardly ever heard of him by now (not withstanding his win in Andalucia early last year).

I like the links tradition, and wouldn't particularly like to see it changed, but that doesn't mean I think there's anything massively different about it that top pros can't adjust to very quickly. I do think the tournament was somewhat spoiled by the weather last year, but such weather problems usually even themselves out with the am/pm split over the first two days, and St Andrews was unlucky.

by SmithersJones Fri 08 Jul 2011, 3:45 pm

hend085 wrote:to say the game is the exact same if you hit 18 greens and 18 fairways is a bit of a stupid comment in fairness!

Care to expand on that? How would it differ in such a hypothetical scenario?

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