Reds v Leinster

There is current speculation that the winner of this year's Super Rugby competition (Reds) will play the European Cup champions, Leinster in a game next year for an unofficial, "world's best provincial rugby side" match up. ARU will be discussing this with European officials at the RWC and apparently it has legs.

Let's assume the game is held in Dublin.

So who do you think would win that one and why?

Even imagining there was some way to put each side in the condition they were when winning the title, I think travel, local conditions and local support would make it nearly impossible for the visitor to win.

the game would be a farce if it ever got off the ground and would be utterly meaningless.
Why anyone in their right mind would want to add more games to the already crammed Northrn Hemisphere players scedule is very worrying....

aucklandlaurie wrote: the game would be a farce if it ever got off the ground and would be utterly meaningless.
Why anyone in their right mind would want to add more games to the already crammed Northrn Hemisphere players scedule is very worrying....

Not a farce at all. In a few weeks Leinster will play Melbourne Rebels in a pre season friendly. Is that a farce too? Of course not. I reckon it is a great idea.

Wonder why they chose the Rebels? 15th best team in Super Rugby playing European champions??

Its a pre-season warm up and a day before the France game so Leinster won't even be close to a 1st XV. Nice to play someone different but its still a warm up where the result matters little.

I'd say the Rebels were keen as they have European players. It doesn't have anything to do with Leinster playing the bottom ranked team in the super 15. It's just a warm up game and will be a good test as the likes of Sterling Mortlock and Cipriani will be playing. Warm up games are important for Leinster this year as many of our players will be missing at the start of the season.

A reds Leinster game obviously wouldn't work this year as there is a WC in Sept. However, any other year it would be a great occasion.

leinsterbaby wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: the game would be a farce if it ever got off the ground and would be utterly meaningless.
Why anyone in their right mind would want to add more games to the already crammed Northrn Hemisphere players scedule is very worrying....

Not a farce at all. In a few weeks Leinster will play Melbourne Rebels in a pre season friendly. Is that a farce too? Of course not. I reckon it is a great idea.

Of course it's a farce. Any game against senior Irish opposition is. The IRFU control the players and won't let the stars turn out even for cameo appearances.

I was livid with the seemingly disrespectful teams fielded by both Munster and Leinster against the Tigers last season - and that wasn't a RWC year.

Portnoy wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: the game would be a farce if it ever got off the ground and would be utterly meaningless.
Why anyone in their right mind would want to add more games to the already crammed Northrn Hemisphere players scedule is very worrying....

Not a farce at all. In a few weeks Leinster will play Melbourne Rebels in a pre season friendly. Is that a farce too? Of course not. I reckon it is a great idea.

Of course it's a farce. Any game against senior Irish opposition is. The IRFU control the players and won't let the stars turn out even for cameo appearances.

I was livid with the seemingly disrespectful teams fielded by both Munster and Leinster against the Tigers last season - and that wasn't a RWC year.

Munster won the Pro 12
Leinster won the Heineken Cup

Our squads played massive roles and we need to try out new combinations in the summer. Tigers are not the be and end all Portnoy - no better or worse than other clubs.

red_stag wrote: Tigers are not the be and end all Portnoy - no better or worse than other clubs.

That is not my point Staggy.

These friendlies are supposed to be warm-ups for the sides and there is a gate fee to watch.
Tigers fans were short-changed. Which is why I had a rant about it on v1.

There's supposed to be a degree of symbiotic pleasure - not the feeling of being a host to a parasite.

Playing friendlies against the top Irish provinces is a sure-fire recipe for disappointment. That's why I shouted 'never again'.

Leinsterbaby
Why would Leinster be playing a "pre season friendly" in July when the competition doesnt start until after the world cup?? Thats one hell of a pre season training you guys do...
sadly yes playing Melbourne now would be a farce,And please I am not trying to insult you.
Is it possible that i have my wires crossed? as I was thinking that what you guys are calling 'Pre season friendly warm up" games are the same as what we down here call "trial games"???Please educate me if im wrong....

But Portnoy the Tigers fans paid a reduced match fee. Tickets to friendlies cost less than tickets to competitive games.

Also please don't call Irish Rugby a parasite - you can make your points without being hostile.

As I recall Tigers fans got a great game out of it, they scored a last minute try to win a very competitive fixture 34-28. Munster scored 4 tries and it was a highly contested game - referee awarded 45 freekicks/penalties as well as 2 penalty tries to Tigers.

A hugely entertaining match I would say.

Portnoy wrote: [Playing friendlies against the top Irish provinces is a sure-fire recipe for disappointment. That's why I shouted 'never again'.

Think the All Blacks 2008 might disagree

aucklandlaurie wrote: Leinsterbaby
Why would Leinster be playing a "pre season friendly" in July when the competition doesnt start until after the world cup?? Thats one hell of a pre season training you guys do...
sadly yes playing Melbourne now would be a farce,And please I am not trying to insult you.
Is it possible that i have my wires crossed? as I was thinking that what you guys are calling 'Pre season friendly warm up" games are the same as what we down here call "trial games"???Please educate me if im wrong....

The Rabo Direct pro 12 starts in Sept. Therefore having your preseason games in August (not july as far as i know) is normal no?

Portnoy. Do you think it's possible Leinster just don't consider Leicester a big deal anymore?

Leinsterbaby
I dont know what the Rabo direct pro 12 is.. But is it the same players that won the Heineken Cup?

Auckland, Pro 12 (or Rabo Direct Pro 12 to give it sponsor name) is our domestic league. It is the weekly competition that takes place. It used to be Magners League.

Australia 2010 touring side saw the benefit of playing Munsters reserves. As did the All Blacks in 2008. Why should Tigers get the full range of stars.

Red stag
so its like a South African Currie cup team or a NZ itm cup team playing a heneken Cup team??
If yes how can that be any comparison to Super 15 team ( minus its Internationals) playing a Heineken cup team -also minus its Internationals??

Of course it's a farce. Any game against senior Irish opposition is. The IRFU control the players and won't let the stars turn out even for cameo appearances.

And given the success of Ireland and Irish provincial teams over the last 10 years do you not think that the IRFU have got it right?

Also top Irish sides are in a very different place than top English sides.

Given that at any one time half the Munster / Leinster starting 15 make up the majority of the Irish squad the IRFU have to be careful how many games their top players play in a season.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Red stag
so its like a South African Currie cup team or a NZ itm cup team playing a heneken Cup team??
If yes how can that be any comparison to Super 15 team ( minus its Internationals) playing a Heineken cup team -also minus its Internationals??

It's not like that Laurie, 10 (or so) of the 12 teams in the Pro12 play in the Heineken Cup - it's Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht from Ireland, Ospreys, Scarlets, Dragons and Blues from Wales, Edinburgh, Glasgow from Scotland plus Aironi and Treviso from Italy.

I think ive got it now and im even more convinced that the NH players have unrealistic demands placed on them and the last thing they need is more games..........

Laurie, no its a bit different.

The season isn't tiered like in the southern hemisphere.

Both Heinken Cup and Pro12/ English Premiership/ French Top 14 take place from September to May.

The same squad of players play in both competitions but the Heineken Cup only is at most 9 games. Most teams play less. Its just a pool stage and knockouts.

These are the domestic leagues and due to lenght of season there tends to be a lot of rotation - especially by Irish teams.

Can I just point out that Portnoy is exaggerating about the team Leinster put out v Leicester. It featured at least 7 players that played in the Hcup final and some who featured in other Heineken cup games.Sean OBrien european player of the year played for example. If you didn't appreciate the quality on show that's your tough. This was the team:

15: Luke Fitzgerald- first team player - played in Hcup final.
14: David Kearney- Good Squad Player. Features regularly in ML
13: Fergus McFadden- First team player. Played in Hcup final.
12: Eamonn Sheridan- Academy player but had a good game.
11: Niall Morris- Second string.
10: Ian McKinley- Second String but Sexton injured.
9: Isaac Boss- first team player and featured in Hcup final

1: Heinke van der Merwe- Played in Hcup final.
2: Richardt Strauss- played in Hcup final. Young player of year.
3: Simon Shawe- Academy player but we needed to experiment here.
4: Nathan Hines- Very experienced international. Played Hcup final
5: Devin Toner- Second string.
6: Dominic Ryan- close to first team. One of our best young players and played a few Hcup games.
7: Sean O’Brien CAPTAIN- layed in Hcup final, European player of year.
8: Stephen Keogh- second string

I note that Sexton was injured at the time and I believe Leo Cullen was too. All things considered for a preseason team it was not too bad.

For example the likes of Paul O'Connell and Brian O'Driscoll play in about one third of the Pro 12 games. However they would play in all Heineken Cup matches instead. Then the academy players or foreign signings play most weeks in the Pro 12.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I think ive got it now and im even more convinced that the NH players have unrealistic demands placed on them and the last thing they need is more games..........

Completely disagree Leinster squad is quite big and the Internationals are frequently rested. Irish rugby players put in a few hours training a few times a week and a game on the weekend or every second weekend in some cases. They work very short hours and have long holidays. A once off exhibition game won't kill them especially if there was a trophy at stake which there should be.

I think it can be managed. The IRFU do a super job in terms of constant player rotation, competing on different levels and implementing foreign players to assist the youngsters.

Its a difficult tightrope to walk but it can yield results.

well if you guys dont think that your players arent playing too much in a season,then gofor the Super15 v Heineken cup game..
Next question when would you play it so as not to clash with everything else?

But how would you organise the logistics of it all. Leinster won the HC, and between then and the Super 15 final, we have said goodbye to Nathan Hines and Stan Wright and brought in Cronin and Carr amongst others. Outside of the HC and Super 15 timeframes, you will always have international competitions to interfere with the players available to any team.

The only way to really have a go at it would be a club world cup type event and create a 3 week window at the summer/autumn tests to replace the international games at that time. The event could take the top Pro12 team (so the best team from Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Italy), Aviva winners, Top14 winners and the the top team from SA, Oz and NZ. Whichever league has the HC champion and the Super 15 champion could get a bye to the semi's and then have the other 4 teams play in two quarter final games. You could debate whether the cup should see SH face NH in the early stages (leaving a possibility of an all SH or all NH final) or that they get kept apart till the final. I'd think mixing it up as much as possible to have SH/NH would generate most interest and be most lucrative for the advertising market which is a necessity to cover the cost of such an event, compensate the RUs for loss of international games and the clubs for having extra games.

It would be a great match to see. Here's Leinster in action in last seasons Heineken Cup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-5z4Nu5r7E

Anyone have any good clips of the Reds? I didn't watch much Super 15 at all.

I love this clip of cooper v rebels. Class. Highlights of the reds semi are also well worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONHbGGdEHjo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

How do people think the game would go

i think

we have an even enough front row
and second row, although not so sure with us losing hines

Scrum we might have an advantage not much
line out - this was one place i thought the reds really impressed me, however we are good in here also

breakdown, if it was reffed like last week , who knows anyones guess
if it was reffed with rules i think we might have an edge

half backs, there is no point beating round the bush, the reds have us here although the saders did a great job disrupting and they didnt get much joy

The back three would be the reds also, but with isa anything is possible

Neutral ground reds to win in a high scoring game, if the game was played ten times they would win 6 it would be close

Half backs the Reds are better?

Definitly at scrum half but not at OH IMO. Cooper is mercurial but inconsistent. Compare his turgid display in the Super 15 final to Sextons 28 points masterclass oin the Hcup final in which he demonstrated a complete set of OH skills then I think it's fair to say Sexton is just as good if not better.

leinsterbaby wrote:Half backs the Reds are better?

Yes Genia is comfortably better than Reddan. IMO Cooper is better than Sexton but even if you prefer Sexton he isn't better by much. The gulf between Reddan and Genia is what seals the deal.

Oh yes no problem with Genia v Reddan. Genia is the best scrum half in world rugby at the moment. Reddan isn't in the top ten. Agreed.

However, Cooper gets all the headlines because he is a flash exciting player whereas Sexton is not. However, Sexton has appeared in two Hcup finals and was outstanding in both playing a very big part in both victories.

In Coopers only final appearance he missed some fairly easy kicks at goal, dropped off a tackle to allow Carter to touchdown under the posts rather than out wide. He was caught in position a number of times, ignoring better options. It was by no means a terrible performance but was a little sloppy. Same can be said of him in a lot of big games.

Cooper is a much more exciting player the type the fans like to see Sexton is a all round more effective out half.

red_stag wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Half backs the Reds are better?

Yes Genia is comfortably better than Reddan. IMO Cooper is better than Sexton but even if you prefer Sexton he isn't better by much. The gulf between Reddan and Genia is what seals the deal.

this is the reason i had them down as better

i think you could be right about sexton and cooper though LB

and if the leinster back row were allowed get at cooper then sexton could pull the strings

Rob B wrote:Wonder why they chose the Rebels? 15th best team in Super Rugby playing European champions??

Rabo bank sponsored Melbourne Rebels v one of the most marketable teams in the newly christened RaboDirect Pro 12.

I'd say it's all to do with Leinster looking for an easy game...

So now Cooper and Genia- current Internationals in Oz at no. 3 being compared to who? Club players ij Ireland not even playing for their test sides- is that the case here?
The HC is not the same quality as the Superxv so theres no comparison.

Super xv has ALL the players from the countries ranked 1-3.

The HCup has none.

Stop comparing apples with oranges.

Taylorman wrote:So now Cooper and Genia- current Internationals in Oz at no. 3 being compared to who? Club players ij Ireland not even playing for their test sides- is that the case here?.

No it isn't.

The half back pairing for Australia/Reds (IRB 3rd Ranked Team / SANZAR Champions)
The half back pairing for Ireland/Leinster (IRB 4th Ranked Team / European Champions)

It is certainly a valid comparison that I think the Aussies come up tops in.

But it certainly isn't a case of apples and oranges. Don't be so arrogant.

Queensland Reds have loads of players from the 3rd ranked side in World Rugby. Leinster have loads of players from the 4th ranked side in world rugby.

You'd expect it to be close. You'd expect Australia vs Ireland to be close for that matter.

Reds have a much weaker scrum than Leinster, not as good a goalkicker so I couldn't see them running away with any match between the two sides. Leinster are comfortable attacking and defending at a high tempo. They're gonna concede points against a talented Reds backline, but their scrum, lineout and backrow would all deliver the goods and put them right in the game.

I would back Leinster by the finest of margins.

Taylorman wrote:So now Cooper and Genia- current Internationals in Oz at no. 3 being compared to who? Club players ij Ireland not even playing for their test sides- is that the case here?
The HC is not the same quality as the Superxv so theres no comparison.

Super xv has ALL the players from the countries ranked 1-3.

The HCup has none.

Stop comparing apples with oranges.

Shows how much you know about rugby. If the super 15 is so great how come the quality of rugby in the final was so hit and miss. Some magic from Carter and Genia but otherwise a lot of errors and sloppy play.

Cooper is so overrated it's ridiculous. Granted he is capable of incredible moments of genius but equally he is capable of complete garbage at times too.

Notch wrote:Queensland Reds have loads of players from the 3rd ranked side in World Rugby. Leinster have loads of players from the 4th ranked side in world rugby.
I would back Leinster by the finest of margins.

I am not sure whoese argument this helps however a couple of points, as I think it is clear some of you guys do not watch much Super Rugby and seem to be drawing conclusions just from the final.

1. Australia's rank is No2, not 3. SA is 3.

2. I think the Reds have shown that the number of internationals in their team has had nothing to do with success or predictions of success. It is the how the team performs as a group. FYI the Reds do NOT have loads of Wallabies. In fact they currently have 2 Wallabies: No 9 and 10. Yes some others will come in this year like Slipper, Loane and maybe Horwill.

Yes Oz are 3 (or 2) and Ireland are 4.

My point was the Reds won a comp containing at least the entire squads of the top 3 ranked nations.

Leinster won a comp containing NONE of the players from the squads in the top 3 (by latest squad numbers up to 90 players) but many of the players from squads ranked 4- say 9?

Thats apples and oranges. Its not arrogance. You're comparing one group of players who form 1-3 and one who form 4-9. Over several months of tournament play that is a huge disparity week to week when considering the relative opposition.

Of course one team can on its day beat another but you don't have to support or watch either comp to appreciate that there's an obvious disparity.

I've just gone back and watched noth games. I think it's worth noting that the reds v crusaders game was on a different level in intensity. The breakdown was a lot more instensely contested and the backs generally had significantly less time and space to operate in.

Thats the general difference. That intensity and time and space in which to operate in increases with the level of players involved.

This will increase in the 3N when the level increases again which is why pdvs playing his second tier players will struggle.

If leinster were to play in the sxv they would need to lift their intensity, accuracy and execution considerably because the players theyll be up against on a general level is that much higher.

Didnt mean to come across badly but thats just the realty. Until the nh regularly move amongst the top 3 positions that will continue to be the case and it can only be their domestic comps that do that.

blackcanelion wrote:I've just gone back and watched noth games. I think it's worth noting that the reds v crusaders game was on a different level in intensity. The breakdown was a lot more instensely contested and the backs generally had significantly less time and space to operate in.

The breakdown was a free for all. It was a farce. As for intensity I'd be interested to know how you measured it but IMO there was more end to end action and running rugby in the Hcup final. Certainly more exciting. The super 15 final didn't live up it's potential at all not sure why people are having a hard time admitting it. There were no SBW offloads no Cooper magic. It was dull enough for large parts of the game with lots of handling errors redeemed only by fleeting moments of genius from Carter and Genia. The first score came on 33 minutes and it was a three pointer!!!! There were three tries in the Hcup by then. There was also more kicking in the super15 final. Not quite a snooze fest but not far off. It was a good game but not a great game at all.

Taylorman wrote:Thats the general difference. That intensity and time and space in which to operate in increases with the level of players involved.

This will increase in the 3N when the level increases again which is why pdvs playing his second tier players will struggle.

If leinster were to play in the sxv they would need to lift their intensity, accuracy and execution considerably because the players theyll be up against on a general level is that much higher.

Didnt mean to come across badly but thats just the realty. Until the nh regularly move amongst the top 3 positions that will continue to be the case and it can only be their domestic comps that do that.

Nonsense, the talent in the super15 is much more spread out with the exception of possibly the Crusaiders. I would be fairly confident that there are more international players involved in the Heineken cup too as it spans 6 nations rather than 3. The best teams such as Toulouse and Leinster make up close to half the French and Irish teams with the rest of the players a mix of top overseas players or non capped but very promissing youngsters like Doussain at Toulouse or Conway at Leinster. The reds have two internationals. I think it's fair to assume Toulouse and Leinster would do just fine in Super rugby.

To be honest though I'd say the best teams in the super15 are marginally better than Hcup teams but not by much at all. I'd be confident a full strength Leinster at home would see off the Reds by a score.

Also I find it amazing that anyone can comment on the Hcup when they don't even watch it. Baffling. I watched most of the reds games and some of the Crusaiders games and they were mostly entertaining so I expected a cracking final. IMO it never materialised.

Taylor, yes the Reds are probably a better team for the reasons you list. I said as much myself. But the comparison is between one facet of their game and how it compares with the European champs.

Why is it in the last 5 years alone that there are results like:

Leicester Tigers 22-19 South Africa
Munster 15-6 Australia
Connacht 26-22 Samoa
Saracens 24-23 South Africa
Munster 16-18 New Zealand
Ospreys 24-16 Australia
Ulster 24-00 Queensland Reds

The Southern clubs may be a little better but I think you really underestimate the Northern Hemisphere clubs.

To add to that list Connacht the whipping boys of European rugby came quite close to beating SA in 07 in a pre WC warm up.

Well ive made the point. Dont expect all to agree with it. Its the same old story. I mean all year on 606 v1 i must have seen how about 7 teams would crush the crusaders. As the teams started losing up another would come. Tigers toulouse toulon saracens thru towards the end lenster- not at all previously mentioned were the team.

No real rhyme or reason. Just the flavour team of the day. And now a selective bunch of one off results to back it up.

Not sure about who doesnt know their rugby. If you cant see for yourselves the difference in skill pace and intensity nor explain why theres a general difference when it comes to internationals then thats fine too.

By the way i did see many nh games as our rugby channel generally beamed in the hc magners and top 14 is it as well as the 6N live.

Thats how i was able to make the comparison. Watching one then a sxv match the difference was obvious.

But also understandable why it isnt so obvious up there. Each to his own i guess.

red_stag wrote:Taylor, yes the Reds are probably a better team for the reasons you list. I said as much myself. But the comparison is between one facet of their game and how it compares with the European champs.

Why is it in the last 5 years alone that there are results like:

Leicester Tigers 22-19 South Africa
Munster 15-6 Australia
Connacht 26-22 Samoa
Saracens 24-23 South Africa
Munster 16-18 New Zealand
Ospreys 24-16 Australia
Ulster 24-00 Queensland Reds

The Southern clubs may be a little better but I think you really underestimate the Northern Hemisphere clubs.

The above international sides are presumably mid-week or B teams (except maybe Samoa - and the Reds were at time one of the weakest side in Super Rugby). B teams are in no way the second best team from that country. They probably play together once or twice and then are disbanded. They have no background, teamwork, momentum or anything. Games against the local provincial sides are always close as they are up against sides that play together week in week out.

In any event agree each of the above local teams hard to beat at home.

Leinster would go ok in Super Rugby if they could play all their games at home.