Reds 18 - 13 Crusaders

So the Reds out score the Saders two tries to one, to lift the first Super 15 trophy. A worrying omen for the world cup? A New zealand team choke in the final to an Aussie team...

Also a very costly day for the planet rugby tipster! He put £1000 on the Crusaders to win!

Congradulations to the Reds. They always looked more likely with the ball in hand.

great defence won them the game. Crusaders not their usual incisive brilliance and too many unforced errors.

not impressed with the refereeing of the breakdown. I really hope the world cup will be less of a free for all

mckay1402 wrote:great defence won them the game. Crusaders not their usual incisive brilliance and too many unforced errors.

not impressed with the refereeing of the breakdown. I really hope the world cup will be less of a free for all

What refereeing of the breakdown? I didn't see any...

Planet Rugby,tipped reds by 4 points ,so one point out,Well done the Reds,and the Crusaders.
My original prediction vindicated at final round before knock out stages.
Home advantage is always crucial in finals,I was hoping the Crusaders could get it up for one more game,but it wasn`t to be.
They did incredibly well to get there but in the end a great end by the Reds
to a great campaign.
On to the 3Ns and RWC ,and more great games.

Well done Reds. Was a great battle.
Awesome. Genia great try.

Makes the 3N interesting. Not happy with the result but Reds won.

The Tipster put £1000 on the Crusaders to win
"It is a final the majority were hoping for as the Reds and Crusaders collide. We know who our Tipster will be cheering on - he has £1000 thrown on the latter!"
http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_7027493,00.html

emack2 wrote:Planet Rugby,tipped reds by 4 points ,so one point out,Well done the Reds,and the Crusaders.
My original prediction vindicated at final round before knock out stages.
Home advantage is always crucial in finals,I was hoping the Crusaders could get it up for one more game,but it wasn`t to be.
They did incredibly well to get there but in the end a great end by the Reds
to a great campaign.
On to the 3Ns and RWC ,and more great games.

I haven't seen the game yet, so I'll reserve judgement but I'm loathe to make implied excuses based on tiredness or home advantage. I've seen stuff printed in the NZ media already about the "travel weary Crusaders not having enough puff left for one last outing". I think sometimes it's ok just to be beaten on a day when the sport also comes out as a winner. So let's not take away from the Red's fantastic season in anyway. (I have to say this now before I endure what I imagine is the inevitable Kearnsy and Marto's "time to get the voice right back up to the threshold of pain" commentary that must have accompanied a Red's victory) and I'm back here spitting and seething. I have some relatives up in the Q'land area, and I know they've been through a lot this year, as have the Cantabs, so I'm sure they'll be celebrating this one just as soon as they've counted up the points on some nearby Cuisenaire rods ( or adding sticks as they seemed to call them ) and figured out that they won.

Great atmosphere at the stadium, awesome night to be a Cockney Red at Suncorp. I'll have to watch the match again but it seemed to me that Crusaders, like the Blues last week, just didn't turn up mentally. Battle of the halves was a bit of a damp squib, probably won by Carter from his stunning solo try. Moments of brilliance from Genia and Ioane. Not great signs for the RWC for NZ or is that reading too much into it? Great effort for the Crusaders to be in the final but probably a bridge too far. What's the betting on an England v Australia RWC semi?

Good game, well done Reds.

Both teams deserved to be there and would have been worthy winners.

PerryGee wrote:...What's the betting on an England v Australia RWC semi?

Yes, the Reds beat the Crusaders and that means England will make the semi finals. Obviously.

I don't see the correlation there sorry, unless England are planning on fielding any of the Reds not yet capped by Australia.

Perry Gee,
No correlation.

This result will have absolutely no effect on NZ's performance in the RWC.

The match could easily have finished with a Crusaders victory, it was close right up until the end...they bombed a chance or two as well and could have had a decent lead in the first half which would have made things difficult for the Reds to come back. However, what happened, happened!

I thought the referreeing of the breakdown and the scrum were poor. People were coming in at all angles and there was little evidence of both teams staying on their feet. I felt the Saders were a little hard done by on the scrums as they looked to have the measure of the Reds pack but on numerous occasions the ball was allowed to be played from collapsed scrums.

I think it bodes well for Australia. The Crusaders had 2 defensive lapses and the Reds were able to make them pay twice. They are so clinical. Good to see a new winner aswell

Well, one thing we learned, or confirmed anyway, is what ever good happens for Aus in the RWC, Will Genia will be in the middle of it. Absolutely great Scrum Half play today. Good for him.

totally epic match tense high pressure. Really enjoyed watching it and super rugby as a whole this season. I think an hounourable mention is due to the stormers and the sharks as well. I think that ive enjoyed more without the elvs.

Congratulations Queensland for winning what is a competition that is unequalled in the rugby world.
crusaders and the referee definitely contributed to make it the spectacle that it was.
Three victorious games at Suncorp in a week, who wouldnt want to be the owner of the Caxton...........

The match was a great one,typical finals rugby,not the free flowing game every one was predicting but an arm wrestle.
The Reds won due to a piece of individual brilliance from arguably the worlds best scrum half.
The fatigue factor finally came back to hit the Crusaders in the final 10 minutes.they had`nt enough in the tank to reply.
The Reds have led the table all year,and deservedly won the title,to be fair to the Crusaders they played 3 games in 3 weeks and crossed the globe twice.
The Reds had a bye week,plus home advantage in semi-final and final,they by comparison were rested.The Crusaders were not this is not an excuse merely confirming the status quo of this Tournament.
Viz the top two sides have home advantage at semi,and final and Home side wins the Final that is the norm.
Having read some of the comments here makes me laugh,NZ chokers lose in final again.Not a good augurie for the RWC,england must be looking forward to meeting Australia in the final etc.
Australia may well win both the 3Ns or the RWC or both,but it does`nt often follow,In 2009 NZ had 3 semi -finalists but had a poor 3Ns[due in a large extent to injuries] .
In 2010 the Bulls won but the Boks came bottom of the 3Ns [again due a lot to injuries].
This season in a RWC year from a SH perspective seems madness an extended S15 finishing a fortnight before 3Ns starts.
The 3Ns finishing a fortnight before a RWC starts injuries are certain,NH must be laughing there socks off at the thought.

As a kiwi I'd like to give credit to the reds. I think there ability to unlock teams with ball in hand is great. You do get the feeling everytime Cooper gets the ball something might happen.

I thought the battle of the breakdown was intense. Probably more intense than I've seen in many test matchs. The reds were outplayed at the scrum, but their competativeness at the breakdown made up for it. I thought both sidess had their chances. The reds were cleaner , the reds seemed to put players into space, whilst the crusaders breaks resulted from players offloading in contact.

I think the refereeing trio was alright. there seems to be a bit of critisism of of them in the media (e.g. the telegraph). I thought they missed a few calls for either side, but were consistent. For me that's the key. To me many top matches are refereed inconsistently.

Thumbs up to the reds coaching team.

Agree with your take on it, blackcanelion. The Reds lifted for the occasion only slightly more and that was probably the difference.

Full credit to the Crusaders too for a remarkable season given the situation at home. They will always be known as a great team.

Also, I feel so happy for Ewen McKenzie and the Qld coaching staff. EM deserved this one as much as his players. I thought he was treated so poorly in Sydney - so it's great to see him achieve this.

What a famous final that will be remembered for a long time. Reds have never won the big one, with 2 current Wallabies up against probably the most successful provincial side in history loaded up with current All Blacks.

The game in the first half was a bit scrappy but I put that down to the pressure being imposed by the team. Great try to DC.

Second half - it opened up a bit. Again brilliant backline play especially Genia and Loane.

The Reds story is a great one having been in the bottom 3 sides just 2 years ago .Blokes like Beau Robinson - sacked by the Waratahs, he didn't have a contract and McKenzie said he could turn up at training and see how it goes. In one season he has gone from discard to a Wallaby squad member. He is the form No7 in SH rugby at the moment.

Look at Samo - played a handful of games as a Wallaby in 2004 and really not seen since. At 35, he was written off - now one, of the form No 8 and he too is a Wallaby again.

These are the guys who are the no names and are constantly being written off by all and sundry. They are rarely tipped to win their games but keep doing it. McKenzie must take a lot of the credit.

I have said it before, I just hope they start to get the respect they deserve in the future.

Rob B I agree with you on most things especially how the Reds have developed.I think Matt Todd would also rate as the form 7 in the tournament.
The coaches of both sides cantake pride in there sides especially,injury replacements like Berquist,Marshall,Todd,Tom Ward for the Crusaders.
Surely the point isn`t a team has X indviduals who played tests.but how they play as a TEAM.
All those All Blacks you mention many of them were missing a large part of the season.But there replacements stood up and carried the flame?

emack2 wrote:The 3Ns finishing a fortnight before a RWC starts injuries are certain,NH must be laughing there socks off at the thought.

Not at all. I wouldn't want injuries to any of the Tri-Nations sides and would want all teams to be at their strongest.

Would make some early exits all the more, erm interesting....

emack2 wrote:Rob B I agree with you on most things especially how the Reds have developed.I think Matt Todd would also rate as the form 7 in the tournament.
The coaches of both sides cantake pride in there sides especially,injury replacements like Berquist,Marshall,Todd,Tom Ward for the Crusaders.
Surely the point isn`t a team has X indviduals who played tests.but how they play as a TEAM.
All those All Blacks you mention many of them were missing a large part of the season.But there replacements stood up and carried the flame?

For the final the Crusaders fielded essentially a full strength side barring Dagg. So my point was about the teams that fronted each other in the final. Agree the wider squads for both sides are what got them to that final.

Having now seen the game, I agree the article in the Telegraph is uneducated nonsense. Mostly the predictable conclusion that the Crusaders losing to a very good Reds side in early July indicates that there is no way NZ can win the RWC in October is wishful thinking.

The journalist in question clearly thinks that a "correctly" controlled breakdown is one that is penalised metronomically by the kind of unfit traffic cop refs that mar the British competitions.

I didn't think the Reds were any where near as persistently off side than Wales were in the AI game v NZ late last year, and I didn't see any NH journo's queueing up to condemn the refereeing of Lewis on that occasion. All I heard then was praise for the miraculous "line speed" of the Welsh defence.

This was a game that came down to the Crusaders not taking their chances, and the Reds manufacturing and executing some of their own. On their day the Crusaders would have squeezed the life out of the Reds, but they just weren't accurate enough in defence or at the set piece.

TheGreyGhost wrote: On their day the Crusaders would have squeezed the life out of the Reds, but they just weren't accurate enough in defence or at the set piece.

Garbage.

Not a bad game for a final. There were some good passages of play, but as a NH fan I didn't find watching it intimidating.

If SH sides are used to that sort of refereeing then they could have serious problems playing NH sides with NH referees. At the breakdown and scrum there were a lot of penalties not given in my opinion. It would be a shame if the WC became all about different refereeing standards.

DaveM wrote:Not a bad game for a final. There were some good passages of play, but as a NH fan I didn't find watching it intimidating.

If SH sides are used to that sort of refereeing then they could have serious problems playing NH sides with NH referees. At the breakdown and scrum there were a lot of penalties not given in my opinion. It would be a shame if the WC became all about different refereeing standards.

Agree the difference in interpretation of the laws is alarming. I thought Bryce did a pretty decent job overall, other than 1 howler.

Glad there wasn't a lot of scrum and breakdown penalties, as you lament. It makes for boring rugby with all the stoppages and I certainly do not pay good money to watch teams turn up and have a goal kicking competition.

The key is not a penalty fest as a result of technicalities. There is nothing worse than a pedantic ref. ruining the game. It is consistent interpretation which is key and I think SH is getting that right and providing some attractive rugby as a result.

The key is not a penalty fest as a result of technicalities. There is nothing worse than a pedantic ref. ruining the game. It is consistent interpretation which is key and I think SH is getting that right and providing some attractive rugby as a result.
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And that's what is really concerning for the future of the game, because I thought (and have thought every time I've seen him) that Bryce refereed poorly. At the breakdown you stay on your feet and you come in through the gate - this isn't a techicality, it's key to the whole concept of a fair contest for the ball. At the scrum you keep scrummaging, even if you are under-pressure. Joubert is probably the best referee out there, but I think he's far more suited to the way the NH likes it's rugby to be played.

If NH and SH fans want different things from the game, then that's a real problem.

NH sides tend to avoid contest at the breakdown and almost invariably concede possession, turn overs are rare and penalties are frequent. The situation is generally static and involves few players. SH rugby is typified by a greater contest in this area, mire physicality and hence more mess. Whether this is an effect of refereeing or affects the refereeing is hard to tell. One things for sure - the sanzar sides did the same in the AIs and weren't pinged with the exception of Lewis who reffed the ABs out of the game for the most part and HASN'T been selected for the finals - read into that what you will.

the reds defence was excellent and they gave a great display at the breakdown.

Some top players for the crusaders under performed eg sbw read and thorne (why didn;t he pass?)

two great trys from the reds and that defence won them the game.

Crusaders didn;t make the most of their dominance at the scrum, pretty scrappy game all round

TheGreyGhost wrote:NH sides tend to avoid contest at the breakdown and almost invariably concede possession, turn overs are rare and penalties are frequent. The situation is generally static and involves few players. SH rugby is typified by a greater contest in this area, mire physicality and hence more mess. Whether this is an effect of refereeing or affects the refereeing is hard to tell.

The problem for me goes back to the referees - the NH refs in general stick to the laws more closely and make players stay on their feet and come through the gate, while SH refs seem happy to ignore this in favour of "letting the game flow".
I'd rather the teams were kept to the laws, but either way the key thing is there needs to be consistency because it is a clear disadvantage to suddenly play under a ref who is working to different interpretations - it is one area where the NH is usually placed at a disadvantage as the NH refs will often make more allowance for the more liberal style of the SH, it often seems, and lose out at the breakdown.

"NH sides tend to avoid contest at the breakdown and almost invariably concede possession, turn overs are rare and penalties are frequent. The situation is generally static and involves few players. SH rugby is typified by a greater contest in this area, mire physicality and hence more mess. "

This is not an accurate summary at all of NH rugby. Is this assertion meant to apply to all club rugby across the three different leagues, H Cup, and to the 6 Nations?

Snoopster I have to agree and disagree with you. I agree it would be great if there was more consistency. I disagree that the NH are at a disadvantage. The stats on penalties conceeded over the last year don't appear to back this up. If anything they suggest that the one major side that suffers are the All Blacks. It also ignores the fact that all teams continually offend, especially at the breakdown. For instance, if you look at the England vs NZ last November and just watch the English, you will see a lot of unpunished infringing. This is just one example. I'm just illustrating that all sides offend, and all referees miss things. I think it's unrealistic for a referee to catch everything. I want consistency. I don't think the refereeing group in the weekend were too bad in terms of consistency.

blackcanelion wrote:Snoopster I have to agree and disagree with you. I agree it would be great if there was more consistency. I disagree that the NH are at a disadvantage. The stats on penalties conceeded over the last year don't appear to back this up. If anything they suggest that the one major side that suffers are the All Blacks. It also ignores the fact that all teams continually offend, especially at the breakdown. For instance, if you look at the England vs NZ last November and just watch the English, you will see a lot of unpunished infringing. This is just one example. I'm just illustrating that all sides offend, and all referees miss things. I think it's unrealistic for a referee to catch everything. I want consistency. I don't think the refereeing group in the weekend were too bad in terms of consistency.

that's fair enough, mine was an opinion based on watching games rather than based on hard facts... and given how poor England have been for most of the last 8 years it might have biased that;) I'm in no way trying to claim that no sides in fringe though, just that in terms of coming through the gate and going off their feet is something it does seem like it is something that gets picked up on by refs more in NH club rugby.

I agree with you about coming into rucks from the side.

Well done to the Reds.
I was hoping the Cursaders could go one further but didn't expect it.
Reds defence very in your face and a couple of chances on both sides went begging.
Good scrum for Crusaders but terrible lineout. Can any of our top 3 hookers throw straight right now?
Most people go on about Cooper but I think Genia is the key.
Good thing the ABs won't be over confident now
Bad thing the Wallabies will be confident now.
Lost the blxxdy netball too.

Yeah I was a bit worried about Genia as well.
The try he got was reminiscent of Beale's against the AB's last year where he ran the 60 metres untouched. Gotta give it to them. Regardless of whether the Saders were jaded from a long and very odd year, the Reds fronted and deserved it whereas the Saders didnt despite being on paper the much stronger team in terms of Internationals.

Makes Deans selections very interesting in terms of how much the reds is the nucleus of his team, with so many names spread across the other 4 teams. (havnt seen the selection yet if he's made one)

Still think hes going to have front row issues but for the first time this year the AB's are looking that much more beatable come 3N with some very strong Oz/ SA teams on show, ignoring PDV's cotton wool approach. Why does he keep doing these things?

Mind you, thought the same thing last year and it turns out Henry's planning came to the fore.

He said hes spent the last 7 months doing his analysis and is getting 'sick of it' but I'd love to have got my hands on that stuff if last years anything to go by.

Well done the Reds and bring on the 3N!!!

Well done to the Reds, I actually thought the Crusaders would win this. I must admit I suppoerted the Reds simply because I thought NZ doesn't need any more momentum.

Rob B wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote: On their day the Crusaders would have squeezed the life out of the Reds, but they just weren't accurate enough in defence or at the set piece.

Garbage.

GG talking his usual blinkered self opinionated poo. He sees things that no one else does. Unfortunately a typical response from a Kiwi when a NZ tea, loses, there MUST be an excuse, there is NEVER the sense that the other team was better. The REDS were GG get over it.

Enjoyed the game, think both sides spilled the ball too much, certainly for top pro sides.

Yes if Thorn had passed the ball it could have been all over for the Reds, but he didn't, though I think for his last game, even on the losing side, he gave a great after match interview, even though it must've stung losing. What a good bloke.

Think it was good the Reds half backs were tested so well. First half not anything from them, the 'saders were right up there, but then it worked,, and I think that should bode well for the 3Ns and onwards as they get more game time in tight situations.

We were helped of course by the fact their hooker couldn't throw the ball in straight, and when he did the Reds managed a couple of important steals. also the time when Guildford kicked when he would have done better to pass when near the Reds line after a series of pick and drives by saders.

And how useless is Cooper at tackling!! Can't imagine any other player letting Carter in for the try without at least making an attempt at a tackle, after he had made the distance to get near him! But anyway, I guess everyone and their grandma knows he is no great shakes as a tackler.

Reds front row, well played a lot of set pieces on their knees, but showed up with a few carrys and good work rate in the loose.


And what about the try that was no try for the Reds? think it was Simmons charging thru, well you can see he was making the effort but not much ground really actually being made.. LOL!! Why was it called back?

Can't wait for the 3Ns. Enjoyed the game and well played both sides.

Great game to watch. Intense, fast and good individual tires. Defense was excellent from both sides and either side could have taken victory! Great game bring on the Tri Nations!

Great win for the Reds. Horwill played really well in the pack, and Ioane was seriously sharp out wide. Genia's try was awesome, although he kicked an awful lot of ball away, and sometimes quite poorly.

The Crusaders will be frustrated, they had both the platform in the forwards and the talent in the backs to win, but were just sloppy at crucial moments, and got a little bit impatient at times. The Reds capitalised fully and ultimately deserved their victory.

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rob B wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote: On their day the Crusaders would have squeezed the life out of the Reds, but they just weren't accurate enough in defence or at the set piece.

Garbage.

GG talking his usual blinkered self opinionated poo. He sees things that no one else does. Unfortunately a typical response from a Kiwi when a NZ tea, loses, there MUST be an excuse, there is NEVER the sense that the other team was better. The REDS were GG get over it.

When did I make an excuse? I seem to recall saying exactly the opposite. Merely saying the Crusaders couldn't squeeze the Reds as they did in the Semi. Missing an astonishing number of first up tackles and allowing too many line breaks. This is exactly what didn't happen last week. Whether that's the Reds being "too good to tackle" or the defence being a bit lax is hard to tell. Also the line out was sloppy and too much possession was yielded unnecessarily. On their day, the Crusaders would have made those tackles, hit their jumpers and won the game. That's not an excuse. It's just a fact. As it was, they didn't and the Reds won. I don't have a problem with that. Why do you?

I've just seen a comment on Twitter saying "The Super Rugby final had the biggest audience in the 15-year history of pay TV in Australia (518,000) – all programmes and stations." by SA Rugby magazine's account.

Good effort by the if that's accurate

Welshjohn I thought after being on these forums you would have discovered that isn't typical of a NZ response at all.

Yeah dc, I hate it when people say things like that...we're all branded the same. I was even accused of saying 'NZ are cheats' in another thread.

If only he knew I'm half Kiwi (genetically) 1% ('philosophically') and would never accuse my cousins of that - even if they do/did. They would use that famous Piggy Muldoon line on me in a nanosecond. You know the one, lol. Something about a canary...

Linebreaker wrote:Yeah dc, I hate it when people say things like that...we're all branded the same. I was even accused of saying 'NZ are cheats' in another thread.

If only he knew I'm half Kiwi (genetically) 1% ('philosophically') and would never accuse my cousins of that - even if they do/did. They would use that famous Piggy Muldoon line on me in a nanosecond. You know the one, lol. Something about a canary...

The canary one's not bad LB. I always preferred his one about the impact of NZer's emigrating on IQ levels in both countries though

Thanks for reminding me Kiwi...that one was very clever.

True that all the good ones are here...well, a few good'uns at least!

I'm glad Linebreaker. I know a fair few idiots back home and am very glad that they're home. Although that's exactly what worries me about the RWC.

I HATE when I meet some over here. Was talking to some ridiculously hot Norwegian girls in Croatia (just talking as my Kraut missus would unleash hell otherwise haha) and some Kiwi pillock tried to chat one of them up so blatantly in like 30 seconds. Was so embarrassed-should have pushed him into the drink really.

Also remember after the underarm old Rob saying it was appropriate they were wearing yellow!

"lso remember after the underarm old Rob saying it was appropriate they were wearing yellow!"....

Can't believe you guys won't let that one go...... must be 20 years ago now!



But disney, sure understand about meeting some from home here that may be more of a hindrance and certainly an embarrassment for the country. Then again, I look back to when I first came over, I soon realize that I WAS that kid I see now lurching round and ricocheting down the walkway to the Northern line at Charring Cross... LOL