Martin Johnson's future lies in his hands.

THe man was chastised by Englaish fans up until last summer in one form or another. Finally a decent performance at the end of the six Nations followed by an away in on tour win Australia and things look rosie. The man England wanted to move on has found his feet, found his players and has turned the fortunes around making England a top five team again and outside contenders for the RWC in NZ.

The developments in the senior department of the RFU have apparently little to do with Johnson or the way he runs his side, but the current upstairs upheaval leaves Johnson with no boss.

Sounds great, I am sure many people envy his situation

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7032956,00.html

The humiliation against Ireland and bruising loss to South Africa shows that there is still a lot of work to do.

MJ's squad of 45 is uninspiring as expected with glaring weaknesses at centre and a lack of quality at no 8.

England could reach the final without meeting either South Africa or New Zealand.

All our futures lie in our respective hands. We are not the Borg.

beshocked wrote:
England could reach the final without meeting either South Africa or New Zealand.

Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they struggled to beat at HQ in the Six Nations.

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:
England could reach the final without meeting either South Africa or New Zealand.

Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they struggled to beat at HQ in the Six Nations.

Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they beat in the Six Nations.


Depends how you spin it really.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:
England could reach the final without meeting either South Africa or New Zealand.

Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they struggled to beat at HQ in the Six Nations.

Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they beat in the Six Nations.


Depends how you spin it really.

True you could also say that France and Australia have lost to England in two consecutive world cups. Chances of it happening again are not bad.

Scotland haven't beaten England at Twickers for over 20 years. England are the highest ranked side in their pool. Scotland's away form is woeful. When was the last time they beat one of the tri nations or England away from home?

maestegmafia wrote:Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they beat in the Six Nations.

The key here is that England have beaten them. maesteg, you point at Welsh losses at home to SA to say that Wales have a decent chance.

It really does depend how you spin it!

I think England are quite a way down the road to what Jonno want to achiever but as some results showed there is still quite a bit of work to do and he knows that.

They are once again very formidable andstrong up front but I think their centres are their main problem. This WC has come four years to early IMO but with the resources they will always be there or there abouts.

He has upset some people with his foreign pokicy at the moment bt thems are the rules.

bedfordwelsh wrote:This WC has come four years to early

The last one came four years too late. Still, it didn't turn out too bad...

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:
England could reach the final without meeting either South Africa or New Zealand.

Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they struggled to beat at HQ in the Six Nations.

Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they beat in the Six Nations.


Depends how you spin it really.

Spin what?

Scotland are in England's group it wasn't until the 78th minute in Twickers that England pulled more than three points ahead. If England Win that and beat Argentina which they should, (Argies are not anywhere near as good as in 2007), then they are likely to meet France, who were pretty tough customers for England in the Six nations.

maesteg, you're going off topic again!

Get with it!

SafeAsMilk wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Yes but they are definitely going to meet Scotland and likely to play France in the Quarters both who they beat in the Six Nations.

The key here is that England have beaten them. maesteg, you point at Welsh losses at home to SA to say that Wales have a decent chance.

It really does depend how you spin it!

No I say that Wales' chances are not impossible. But they are very unlikely. South Africa have only ever lost once to Wales, England have lost 42 to Scotland and 36 to France.

SafeAsMilk wrote:maesteg, you're going off topic again!

Get with it!

a touch hypocritical there

SafeAsMilk wrote:
The key here is that England have beaten them. maesteg, you point at Welsh losses at home to SA to say that Wales have a decent chance.

This thread isn't about Wales losing to SA, Fiji and Samoa it's about England beating Scotland, Argentina and France.

It appears that Jeff Blackett could be the next to walk at the RFU

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/8631403/Jeff-Blackett-the-chief-disciplinary-officer-may-depart-RFU-in-latest-fiasco.html

SafeAsMilk wrote:This thread isn't about Wales losing to SA, Fiji and Samoa it's about England beating Scotland, Argentina and France.

Shame there isnt an ignore button on this forum...

Please stay on topic, you've had your little attempted jibe it is boring, I don't have any interest in arguing with you.

maestegmafia wrote:Shame there isnt an ignore button on this forum...

Did anyone hear anything?

Ah, ok. Back on topic

bedfordwelsh if the so called foreigners are the best fair enough but they are not!

The so called foreigners happened to be the most overrated and undeserving of their squad places.

Fourie as example is really rated highly but why? Have you seen his amount of missed tackles? Why has a good side not snapped him up if he such a great player?

Hape and Flutey are a waste of space. Flutey was the best choice in 2009 but it's 2011 now. Hape is arguably the worst inside centre in the 6 nations.

Waldrom showed his limitations in the two big matches - Leinster and Saracens.

Maestegmafia Scotland lost,France lost - get over it. I can see why you have that POV though. It's because you like to think Wales have a chance vs South Africa.

I hope Jeff Blackett goes. I don't rate him highly at all. Can we stick him and the other RFU farts into the stocks so we can pelt them with tomatoes?

beshocked wrote:
I hope Jeff Blackett goes. I don't rate him highly at all. Can we stick him and the other RFU farts into the stocks so we can pelt them with tomatoes?

It was a point raised a few years back by Carling, pre professional era back in 1995.

A point that many NH unions should have paid notice to, and maybe the RFU did better than many, as they seemed to professionalise much quicker than the rest of us.

I would say England are a 75% chance to beat Scotland, and a 80% chance vs Argentina - which translates as a 60% chance they'll win the group outright (plus they could also go through on points difference in a rock-paper-scissors scenario) - I've just checked and the Bookie's concensus odds are 4/9 on for England to win their pool, or a 69% chance.

The bookies are being slighly harsh on France's chances of beating NZ for the top of Pool A, giving them a 14% chance of topping the pool - personally if France have to play England a few days after playing NZ, my money would be on England.

Current implied probabilities (based on the Bookmaker's odds for where England finish are:
Group 6.5%
QF 38%
SF 32.5%
Runner up 16.5%
Winner 6.5%

maestegmafia wrote:

Spin what?

You know exactly what.

maestegmafia wrote:Scotland are in England's group it wasn't until the 78th minute in Twickers that England pulled more than three points ahead.

Nope, you are wrong again. When Tom Croft scored a try and Flood converted it, the score was 19-9, now even with my basic arithmetic that is more than a 3 point lead.

maestegmafia wrote:If England Win that and beat Argentina which they should, (Argies are not anywhere near as good as in 2007), then they are likely to meet France, who were pretty tough customers for England in the Six nations.

And England still beat them and Scotland in this years 6N.

I personaly hope that all the NH sides do well and live in hope of seeing a WC where the big 3 SH teams are beaten in their pools, will i ever see that?

As to MJ's future, i'd say keep him and i think they will, they'll let him learn and progress with a team which he is building well but we must change some of the other coaches!

If he hadn't been naughty i'd have Dean Richards in as forwards coach in a flash and i'd also be looking at poaching Mallinder as backs coach with a view to installing him in MJ's place post 2015.

Although if we are going to flex our union might i'd like us to steal who ever coaches Leinsters pack.

beshocked wrote:Scotland's away form is woeful.

I gather by this statement you don't really follow Scotland when they play.

I would also politley remind you that Scotland (under Andy Robinson) Beat Argentina & Ireland away in 2010.

in 2011 they very nearly defeated England and played Well against France so I'm not sure where you are getting the impression of Scotland's "woeful" away form.

In truth I wish Scotland played like they played Against France and England away and we would have beaten Wales and could have beaten Ireland.

I'm sure it won't take much to remind you that England came up rather worse off in their encounter with Ireland in Dublin, in comparrison to Scotland last year.

[I'm sure it won't take much to remind you that England came up rather worse off in their encounter with Ireland in Dublin, in comparrison to Scotland last year.[/quote]

True true, but i'd also point to the fact that those two Ireland teams played very very differently.

We could argue this all day but in the end i think it'll be England Topping with Scotland second, but if it's the other way round ho hum.

As long as we both beat Argentina i don't mind, and you never know we could beat the AB's...

maestegmafia this article is about England not Wales, go and Troll elsewhere please.

Was this message hacked?

A more accurate appraisal of Scotland would be to say that recently we have become incredibly inconsistent, whether it be at home or away.

Comfortably our worst performances last year were at Murrayfield, against the All Blacks and Wales.

England will start as favourites against us in the World Cup, as 6 Nations champions. That will suit us just fine, as Scotland never win anything with even the slightest sniff of expectation. Personally, I think the match will be extremely close, and certainly won't be the comfortable finish to the group stages that either side would want ahead of the QFs (assuming both qualify).

On a side note, someone asked me the other day whether we'd be playing for the Calcutta Cup at the WC. I quickly said no, but on second thoughts I have no idea. Any clues?

I agree with that the Scots will push England all the way 3-5 points either way IMO

funnyExiledScot wrote:On a side note, someone asked me the other day whether we'd be playing for the Calcutta Cup at the WC. I quickly said no, but on second thoughts I have no idea. Any clues?

I imagine you will be playing England for the Calcutta Cup. If the fact that you're playing them in a World Cup fixture means the Calcutta Cup's not at stake, it's news to me.

beshocked,

Maybe thats why he is coming in for some stick, I thought Fourie looked good in the AIs last year

But the problem with Scotland in the Eng/Sco match in the 6N is that other than one very smart piece of action from Max Evans they never did anything to make me think that they could win the game. Their commitment, defense and general spoiling was magnificent - truly out of the top draw (it also happened when the Youngs/Flood axis was starting to go downhill from such a bright start to the season) But they seldom if ever looked dangerous.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

On a side note, someone asked me the other day whether we'd be playing for the Calcutta Cup at the WC. I quickly said no, but on second thoughts I have no idea. Any clues?

It's only competed for in the 6N. Not too long ago an idea was floated that a 2nd fixture would be introduced to play for the Calcutta Cup, but nothing came of it.

Personally i hope Manu comes good in the summer and gets on the plane.

Sorry Mike, I know you have all the experience but offer little attacking threat nowadays. This is my opinion and may be unpopular.

While I'm at it I wouldn't mind seeing bananaman alongside him in the warm ups.

If Cueto plays like he did in the Autumn fine, if not Monye has a good boot too. Shame Atwood is injured btw.

yappysnap wrote:

True true, but i'd also point to the fact that those two Ireland teams played very very differently.

We could argue this all day but in the end i think it'll be England Topping with Scotland second, but if it's the other way round ho hum.

As long as we both beat Argentina i don't mind, and you never know we could beat the AB's...

1st comment : The Ireland teams faced by Scotland in 2010 and England in 2011 were very similar. The big differance is Scotland's Backrow bossed Ireland in the game at Croker, exactly the same way our backrow bossed England's at Twickers. When England Played Ireland in 2011 your backrow were MIA. This let Heaslip and SOB into the game who ran riot. A bit like Beattie and Brown did in 2010.

Scotland's backrow tactics in 2010 were bang on and Ferris and Heaslip were outmuscled by our backrow.

2nd Comment : Here's Hoping! An England and Scotland 1st/2nd would be my hope. However I think England again may Struggle in the backrow against los Pumas. Whereas Scotland will be likely to struggle in the Scrum (front row in particular). Provided Scotland and England do not get dragged into an arm wrestle I think both will beat Argentina. Leaving either bonus points or the game in Auckland to decide who tops the group. Scotland vs England will be very close and also FES I don't know if the Calcutta Cup will be on the line. I would like to think so but I doubt it. My Heart says Scotland by 3 but I reckon it will be England by 3.

3rd Comment : It would not be the first time the All Blacks have choked in a world cup knockout stage..................

ruggerradge you should clearly see after that comment I said when was the last time Scotland beat England and the tri nations away from home?

A long time. That's woeful in my opinion.Ireland doesn't come into the equation as neither are likely to play them in the WC.

You have lost to Italy,Wales,England and France in that time period away from home.

What has an Ireland vs England match have to do with England vs Scotland?

France beat you by a very comfortable margin.

You beat Italy at home. That's it.

It's harsh reality. The Scottish backrow is good and the players have that dogged determination but play to a limited gameplan.

On the other hand your biggest weapon is Scottish weather. In my opinion it played a key role in taking down South Africa and Australia. You won't necessarily have that in NZ.

Really bedfordwelsh? I remember Fourie getting destroyed by his fellow countryman when he came on for an injured Croft I believe.

I thought Johnson from Exeter played very well.

Agree with that Radge, i was just trying to point out the=at Ireland played like men possesed in that game, it was their only good showing from the tournament. As you say though our backrow just gave up after about 20 minutes due to the Irish backrows crazy intensity.

I worry we may meet teams primed like that in the pool stages, but i think our 'friendly' against Ireland may help to dispell some deamons.

if Scotland play to disrupt us and nothing else like in the 6N's then they wont win. If they pick themselves up and run the ball and attack across the board then the game could be a treat. Much like your match against France.

"ruggerradge you should clearly see after that comment I said when was the last time Scotland beat England and the tri nations away from home?"


When was the last time England beat Scotland away from home? Not a particularly strong record against us away from Twickenham.

I don't think home/away makes a massive difference to us. How we play seems to be decided on the toss of a coin these days.

Rugby Uberlord wrote:I thought Johnson from Exeter played very well.

Very well indeed, along with guys like Kitchener and Marler the futures bright in the pack. It's just those centre issues really. And No8 problems. And FB after Foden is a bit of a lottery.

beshocked wrote:bedfordwelsh if the so called foreigners are the best fair enough but they are not!

The so called foreigners happened to be the most overrated and undeserving of their squad places.

Fourie as example is really rated highly but why? Have you seen his amount of missed tackles? Why has a good side not snapped him up if he such a great player?

Hape and Flutey are a waste of space. Flutey was the best choice in 2009 but it's 2011 now. Hape is arguably the worst inside centre in the 6 nations.

Waldrom showed his limitations in the two big matches - Leinster and Saracens.

Maestegmafia Scotland lost,France lost - get over it. I can see why you have that POV though. It's because you like to think Wales have a chance vs South Africa.

I hope Jeff Blackett goes. I don't rate him highly at all. Can we stick him and the other RFU farts into the stocks so we can pelt them with tomatoes?

Didn't he only play the last 20 minutes in both games?

Yappysnap it is because MJ is incompetent. He won't pick the in form FBs or centres.

funny exiled scot I am not sure but can't be more than 20 years surely?

Nathan yes that is true. It does ask the question - if you are not good to get into your club's starting team what makes you good enough for the England squad in your first season in the AP? He is overrated - simple as that.

Hopefully this proves to be the case - MJ has over seen steady improvement even if he's still struggling to overcome his excess of loyalty for players once they're in the team. He's shown he's not scared to bring the young players in though when a replacement is needed - this WC has just come a year too early for him though I think.

Agree with snoopster

This World Cup hasn't come 4 years too early, 1 or 2 years too early maximum. After all, we're Six Nations Champions and have home and away wins against Australia, we will be competitive at the World Cup.

It would have been nice to get one more Autumn Series under us though, allow the new faces in the team to get another look at New Zealand and South Africa. I'm still hopeful that England can succeed though, and I won't be satisfied with anything less than a semi-final.

England last beat Scotland away from Twickenham in 2004. Two losses and a draw since then.

I'd like to see the following start in the summer (against Ireland) just to see how it goes:

Sheridan
Thompson
Cole
Shaw (Would have had Atwood)
Palmer
Croft
Moody (capt)
Easter
Simpson
Flood
Monye
Bananaman
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

I would bring on

Stevens (for Sheridan)
Hartley (Thompson)
Lawes (Shaw)

at about 50 mins, maybe Wood too, when the game opens.

Ok so bottom line...

We have made a huge progress since the dark days....but still have quite a bit of work in progress.

And certain selection issues are the one area we seem to find fault with Jonno and his team.

Im happy for him to stay on after the WC.

Rugby Uberlord....

Surely its time let Shaw retire gracefully. Id take Kitchener over Shaw now. He's young and going to be a big part of Englands second row future along with Lawes, Attwood etc.

Give him some experience in there.

GeordieFalcon

I'm still unsure re Kitchener. You may have persuaded me with Atwood replacing Shaw (haven't forgiven Kitchener for dropping that ball over the try line) but Shaw will undoubtedly bow out after this and I think if he gets the opportunity, like with the Lions, he will go out on a high.

I don't think Johnson is showing loyalty to players. I think he's trying to gain consistency in the team. That way the younger players come into a settled team rather than one with lots of changes. I prefer it that way. Look through the younger players who have come in in the last two years and it's not bad. Foden, Ashton, Youngs, Lawes, Cole, Hartley, Wood, Corbisiero, Banahan. We may see Tuilagi make name for himselve in the world cup if things go well. They're on top of Flood, Croft and Haskell who are all still mid-20s. Not 100% content with the centres but given we've got young half backs and 2 of the back three I'm not against keeping them for now (maybe given Tuilagi some time and see how he goes). After that it'll be bring in a 12, 8, another wing.

Beshocked, full back and centre you say? Any ideas who could come in? What about...I don't know...Barritt and Goode? Just off the top of my head.

I would love to see him at his peak for this...dont get me wrong.

But i just think his peak is beyond him now...and rather than see him lumbering around the field a shadow of his former self...id rather give one of our young pretenders a chance to train with the squad and give them the experience.

Id take Shaw to help with coaching though...his experience could be invaluable to some of the younger players like Lawes etc.

Know what you're saying Geordie but personally I don't think any of the young pretenders are good enough to depose Shaw. I'm starting off with a large pack, and then bringing on the quicker guys after 50.