Will Marquez be stripped of his lightweight titles ?

First topic message reminder :

Juan Manuel Marquez will obviously challenge Manny Pacquiao next at a catchweight of 144lbs, but why wasn't he stripped for the Mayweather fight? and will he be stripped for this one finally? he's clearly the best lightweight in the world but cannot keep moving up a weight, then keeping other contenders waiting, Martinez was stripped, Bradley was stripped for lesser things, fair enough wanting big fights but you can't have it both ways, and surely cant defend your titles on a comprehensive defeat? i think he gets special treatment myself.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Don't think you can say he hasn't brought his power up to LW if that's what you're trying to insinuate stopping Katsidis is no mean feat, Guerrero couldn't and he must have landed 598209580958054890948505809 shots to the head on him.

Is that more than Mitchell landed? I can't remember...

I dont think its as black or white an issue as people are saying. The tale of the tape between the two fighters suggests there isnt a great deal in it.

Going off what divisions a fighter began their career doesnt really prove much in regards to natural size or weight. Other elements play a a bigger factor such as age or amount of weight cutting and ability to cut weight.

The point that Pacquiaos greater talent has allowed him move up more weights than Marquez is entirely valid in my opinion. Pacquiao weighs in about 144 for his contests at WW and even LMW. So LWW would probably be a reasonable middle ground for the two fighters considering that Marquez has to cut weight to make Lightweight, and Pacquaio doesnt cut any weight these days.

Th tale of the tape as below would suggest the differences sizewise ultimately are not huge if we are talking about "natural" size.

Manny Pacquiao: Juan Manuel Marquez
(32 years old): (38 years old)
Height 5'6 ½:" 5'7"
Reach 67":67"
Neck 16":16"
Chest (Normal) 38": 41"
Chest (Expanded) 40 ½": 44"
Bicep 13":14"
Forearm 12": 12"
Wrist 8": 6 ½"
Fist 10": 11 ½"
Waist 28": 29"
Thigh 20": 19"
Calf 15": 13"

Size doesn't mean anything...Strength does!!!!

I'm 6ft and 210 but there are guys who are shorter that weigh less than me who can lift more!!!!

Gomez punch didn't carry from 122 to 126....Manny's gone from 108-147 everyone is different..

But our eyes do tell us that Manny is naturally stronger at 144..

I dont agree, strength is not base indicator. There are probably featherweights that hit harder than Malignaggi.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Size doesn't mean anything...Strength does!!!!

I'm 6ft and 210 but there are guys who are shorter that weigh less than me who can lift more!!!!

Gomez punch didn't carry from 122 to 126....Manny's gone from 108-147 everyone is different..

But our eyes do tell us that Manny is naturally stronger at 144..

Think that tells us more about you than anything Truss. :P

It's a base indicator in this case..

you were the one who brought up the tale of the tape for some reason.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's a base indicator in this case..

you were the one who brought up the tale of the tape for some reason.

Because its valid.

Fairly sure Hagler could rinse Hearns in a weight lifting contest but didn't punch as hard, common misconception that strength has anything to do with power.

The tale of the tape doesn't tell us that Pacquiao carries those dimensions better than Marquez does, you could make Williams a massive muscular fighter but he wouldn't be natural with it

Everybody is different...a guy can weight the same and be more powerful...

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Fairly sure Hagler could rinse Hearns in a weight lifting contest but didn't punch as hard, common misconception that strength has anything to do with power.

The tale of the tape doesn't tell us that Pacquiao carries those dimensions better than Marquez does, you could make Williams a massive muscular fighter but he wouldn't be natural with it

Quite. Compare Williams, Hearns or even Ali Funeka to Tyson. They're all taller, but he was the natural heavy.

Ultimately there isnt alot of difference in size or frame as many are suggesting.

Marquez found a weight hes comfortable at, hasnt really needed to go above up save to get these superfights.

Th definition of "natural" is a misleading one. Natural weight class can change over time with bulking up, age and so on.

What is Pacquaios "natural" weight? He could still certainly make LWW and could probably make LW too with some weight cutting. So for me he isnt really natural at any specific weight. His talent has allowed him to compete higher up.

I think Marquez is similarly capable of growing into a higher weight but lacks the speed and power Pacquaio posseses so there hasnt been the same incentive or reason too.

Because Pacquaio is a naturally faster and more powerful fighter does not equate to him being naturally bigger. He has better boxing attributes.

Spinks bulked up to heavy was he a natural......

Once you're mature and you reach a weight that the body feels comfortable it's your natural weight...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Spinks bulked up to heavy was he a natural......

Once you're mature and you reach a weight that the body feels comfortable it's your natural weight...

Rarely say it with you but couldn't agree more.

Im not sure I agree. Its dependant on other variables. Some fighters go through alot more pain to make weight but it pays off for them to be able to compete in the division. Fighters like Pacquiao dont have to because the have the talent and ability to forgoe having to cut weight.

Then they aren't naturally lightweights if they struggle to make the weight...

Stands to reason....I was 13 stone before I stated weight training..now i@m 15 am I naturally 15 stone no...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Then they aren't naturally lightweights if they struggle to make the weight...

Stands to reason....I was 13 stone before I stated weight training..now i@m 15 am I naturally 15 stone no...

Starts to get into too many variables and possible alternatives though. I mean, if you'd been raised a different way or led a different lifestyle with a different diet etc would your 'natural' of 13 still be the same? Pacquiao's not a natural welterweight, but nor is he a natural 106lb guy. You're right when you say that 'natural' depends on age and circumstance.

We don't really know 100% on Manny's weight perhaps D4 would know seeing as he weighs his excriments...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Then they aren't naturally lightweights if they struggle to make the weight...

Stands to reason....I was 13 stone before I stated weight training..now i@m 15 am I naturally 15 stone no...

Well what do you consider struggling? Marquez has to drain down to make 135 and then rehydrates up to over 140 for the actual fight. Whilst I wouldnt say he struggles to make Lightweight, he certainly does have to cut weight.

We could arge back on front on minute elements but fundementally my point is that Marquez is not a significantly smaller man than Pacquaio in any way. They weight similar outside the ring, they way similar in the ring on fight night, theyre overall dimensions are quite similar. They could theoretically fight in the same divisions as lightweights or light welterweights.

Pacquaio is younger, faster and more powerful now. He has the ability to go up weights which Marquez doesnt. A large part of this due to ability and certain superior attritubutes rather than simply size.

Pacquaio could quite happily have stayed around lightweight or light welter in which case he would considered a natural at those weights too. Pacquaio might carry the weight better higher up but its not becuse he is much naturally bigger than Marquez.

He carries the weight better because he's more natural with it