German GP (includes spoilers)

by Fernando Thu 21 Jul 2011, 1:13 pm

The Nurburgring in Germany is set to hold the 10th round of the F1 2011 season where Sebastien Vettel heads to his home Country with a championship lead of 80 points from his team mate Aussie Mark Webber.

The Track is well loved by drivers as there are plenty of places to overtake, throw in the use of the KERS + DRS and we should be in for a very entertaining race.

The track is also known for having changeable weather as it has played a factor in many races and will it seems again this weekend with rain showers predicted throughout.

what to expect in Germany this weekend

Changeable weather
Overtaking opportunities
Crashes

It will be interesting to see what the order of the teams are now that the Valencia rules have been re-introduced, just how much did the performance difference at Silverstone were down to the rules?

Memorable Moments
95' - Schumacher hunts down Alesi twice to eventually pass him with a bold move in the final few moments

98' - Mika Hakkinen chases down Schumacher who seemingly had 1 hand on the title to take the lead which lead to him winning the world championship

99' - Amid a weekend of rain showers, a gloriously chaotic race saw Jordan's Heinz-Harald Frentzen lead from pole until his car cut out, Ralf Schumacher look set for a maiden win until he had a puncture, and finally Johnny Herbert come through from 14th on the grid to take one of the most astounding surprise wins in F1 history for the Stewart team, with his team-mate Rubens Barrichello third behind Prost's Jarno Trulli in one of the least expected podium line-ups of all time.

05' - 2005: Kimi Raikkonen dominates for McLaren, but flat-spots a tyre. In the season when mid-race tyre changes were banned, he tries to nurse the rubber to the end, only for the vibration to shatter his suspension at the start of the last lap, allowing title rival Fernando Alonso to win.

so sit back this weekend and let the mayhem begin.

sources: bbc, itv, motoring.co.uk

by wow Fri 22 Jul 2011, 10:04 pm

Alonso to win. He is coming back into form. He is due for a title. Had it not been for the politics he would have alteast won 3 more by now. Come on Alonso!

by Guest Sun 24 Jul 2011, 1:05 pm

Great start from Hamilton, but why is Webber always so slow off the start?

by Gregers Sun 24 Jul 2011, 2:56 pm

Driver of the day Sutil, answered a lot of his critics.

by Belgarion of Riva Sun 24 Jul 2011, 3:45 pm

What an excellent performance from Hamilton. A truly exceptional drive.

by Belgarion of Riva Sun 24 Jul 2011, 5:43 pm

The lapper was unable to overtake again today. Something touched on by Brundle, Coulthard, Humphreys and Jordan.

What a stellar world champion

by liverbnz Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:51 am

Belgarion of Riva wrote:The lapper was unable to overtake again today. Something touched on by Brundle, Coulthard, Humphreys and Jordan.

What a stellar world champion

He overtook Alonso and Rosberg didn't he?

by liverbnz Mon 25 Jul 2011, 8:53 am

Y I Man wrote:Great start from Hamilton, but why is Webber always so slow off the start?

I'd love to know the answer to that question, but it doesn't seem forthcoming as Mark thinks his starts have been alright. Or so he is saying in public anyway.

Has he even maintained position from the start once this season? I vaguely remember once holding on to 2nd, but that's about it.

by fantantonio Mon 25 Jul 2011, 9:56 am

Vettel spent most of the race happy to stare at the back of Massa's Ferrari. He is nothing on Schumacher as Schumi can overtake. A world champion that can't overtake. It is either he is really poor at overtaking or the Red Bull is terrible at following other cars and only ever drives well in clean air, hence why when they are in the lead they generally stay there.

by Belgarion of Riva Mon 25 Jul 2011, 10:59 am

liverbnz wrote:
Belgarion of Riva wrote:The lapper was unable to overtake again today. Something touched on by Brundle, Coulthard, Humphreys and Jordan.

What a stellar world champion

He overtook Alonso and Rosberg didn't he?

At the race start when everyone was getting familiar with the conditions. Alonso left the track which gifted Vettel a place. When things settled, he was stuck to Massa's gear box. If the lapper doesn't lead from the front, he doesn't win races.

What a world champion! Soon to be a double world champion. A formula 1 world champion who can't overtake and is only a world champion due to a far superior car and bungled pit stops.

What a joke.

by Belgarion of Riva Mon 25 Jul 2011, 11:21 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14268089.stm

Great highlights, No Vettel overtakes apart from the start.

Cheers

by liverbnz Mon 25 Jul 2011, 11:31 am

And Rosberg?

by fantantonio Mon 25 Jul 2011, 11:52 am

liverbnz wrote:And Rosberg?

One overtake. Thats nothing special, in fact its not even worth acknowledging, for a world champion, in a car as superior as his and the fact that he qualified 3rd meaning he had cars he could have overtaken in front of him.

by liverbnz Mon 25 Jul 2011, 12:03 pm

fantantonio wrote:
liverbnz wrote:And Rosberg?

One overtake. Thats nothing special, in fact its not even worth acknowledging, for a world champion, in a car as superior as his and the fact that he qualified 3rd meaning he had cars he could have overtaken in front of him.

A car as superior as his? Didn't quite look like that yesterday. In quaili yes, race not so much. Plus, the Mercedes has the straight line speed on the Red Bull which makes the overtake that little more difficult. To me, until we have more proof, this is simply conjecture from the BBC concocted to make it seem like Vettel has bigger vunerabilities than he actually has. Fact is, there has been very little to go as the amount of time Vettel spends in behind other cars is minimal. Any time he does, everyone jumps on it like a fly on a fresh cow sh1t.

by fantantonio Mon 25 Jul 2011, 12:26 pm

It didn't seem like webber had any problems with pace and the car was perfectly capable of winning the race. He has a reason for struggling to pass Rosberg as agreed the Mercedes has better straight line speed but what about spending half the race sat behind Massa?

by liverbnz Mon 25 Jul 2011, 2:18 pm

fantantonio wrote:It didn't seem like webber had any problems with pace and the car was perfectly capable of winning the race. He has a reason for struggling to pass Rosberg as agreed the Mercedes has better straight line speed but what about spending half the race sat behind Massa?

The same reason Webber spent half the race behind Alonso. The RB looked quick earlier in the stint, but they didn't seem to cope as well as others towards the end which comprised them a fair bit. It's been a problem for Webber all season, and Vettel whenever he is in among the pack.

by Guest Mon 25 Jul 2011, 2:32 pm

vettel has proved he lacks the ability to pass cars of equal or faster pace. passing rosberg with a set of new tyres is like taking candy of a baby, nothing special. Vettel won the title last year in a dominant car, if it wasnt for his outrageous bad luck with mechanicals he would of won it 3 or 4 races from the finish. He will still win this seasons title thanks to the genius of newey and an uncompetitive teammate in webber. A 2x WDC thanks to the car, without barely being tested up front is an absolute joke. When he has been tested, mistakes have been evident all over the place. Hamilton & Alonso are the fastest and most exciting drivers in formula 1.

by dummy_half Mon 25 Jul 2011, 3:54 pm

Part of the reason both Vettel and Webber struggle with overtaking is the way that RB set the cars up - they usually go for quite a high downforce setting that optimises their pace in clear air (improved performance around corners) but compromises their top speed compared with their rivals. So, if they can lead from the front, they can usually maintain the lead (although yesterday the McLaren and Ferrari were comparable in race pace to the RB, and perhaps ran better on worn tyres), but they don't have the weaponry to overtake (especially with a not too good KERS).

Admittedly, I reckon Hamilton is a more natural 'racer' than Vettel, but Seb can hustle a car round the track pretty bleedin quick.

by monty junior Mon 25 Jul 2011, 4:39 pm

Agreed_dummy half, Mclaren and Ferrari are just about the fastest car's down the straights whilst Redbull are among the slowest. Of course looking a little further seems to take too much effort for some. Vettel can overtake fine, he was just off the pace. Still leads by a country mile.

by Belgarion of Riva Mon 25 Jul 2011, 11:38 pm

dummy_half wrote:Part of the reason both Vettel and Webber struggle with overtaking is the way that RB set the cars up - they usually go for quite a high downforce setting that optimises their pace in clear air (improved performance around corners) but compromises their top speed compared with their rivals. So, if they can lead from the front, they can usually maintain the lead (although yesterday the McLaren and Ferrari were comparable in race pace to the RB, and perhaps ran better on worn tyres), but they don't have the weaponry to overtake (especially with a not too good KERS).

Admittedly, I reckon Hamilton is a more natural 'racer' than Vettel, but Seb can hustle a car round the track pretty bleedin quick.

Webber doesn't have the same problem with overtaking that Vettel does. Webber's car had issues with KERS at China and he still pulled off amazing overtakes. I really wonder why you guys (dummy_half and monty junior) are making excuses for Vettel.

The jury is out on the lapper and it's clear to see that when he doesn't escape from the pack, he doesn't win races. What a world champion

by monty junior Tue 26 Jul 2011, 11:57 am

Hmm, well how about Vettel has been on the front row every race so far this season (bar last weekend).. so when has he really needed to overtake? Webber usually qualifies further back and is a notoriously bad starter so is often out of position.

I really hope your not using China as a serious point? Vettel was on pole and Webber qualified 17th, in the best car on the grid. Thus having a full set of the option tyres for the race which were 2 seconds a lap faster. I know using names like the lapper you try to undermine his considerable achievments but he will be a two time champion by the end of the year like it or not.

Im not even a Vettel fan, i find alot of the races he wins boring because its so easy, doesn't mean he's not a great driver. Just some need a bit of perspective.

by erictheblueuk Tue 26 Jul 2011, 1:22 pm

Well done Vettel clap

There are times when you have to give up or avoid some battles to stay in control of the war.

If Hammy and Webber properly understood this. I think Hammy would have been F1 champ more than once and Webber would probably be the current champ.

by liverbnz Tue 26 Jul 2011, 3:28 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:Well done Vettel

There are times when you have to give up or avoid some battles to stay in control of the war.

If Hammy and Webber properly understood this. I think Hammy would have been F1 champ more than once and Webber would probably be the current champ.

Hamilton I understand. Webber I don't.

by erictheblueuk Tue 26 Jul 2011, 4:27 pm

liverbnz wrote:
erictheblueuk wrote:Well done Vettel

There are times when you have to give up or avoid some battles to stay in control of the war.

If Hammy and Webber properly understood this. I think Hammy would have been F1 champ more than once and Webber would probably be the current champ.

Hamilton I understand. Webber I don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kNZzqqdhM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogfclm8LxeQ

by Critical_mass Tue 26 Jul 2011, 9:11 pm

Then again on the flip side of that, you dont win race therefore championships by sitting behind other cars. The best drivers get the best finishing place possible as you dont know what will happen in the future, one point could all that ends up being in it, so that one extra place could make all the difference.

Vettel in any other car wouldnt necessarily be 2 x wdc or even one. He has had the best car, but has taken that with both hands and got the results. But to say sometimes you have to avoid battles is daft. Plus Vettel didnt do what livernbnz says, Its not a case of he didnt want to risk getting higher because he did try get as high as he could, which was only 4th. He didnt just give up cos he didnt want to risk it, because that wasnt an option as he was so far behind Webber in 3rd.

by Critical_mass Tue 26 Jul 2011, 9:34 pm

Oh and erictheblueuk. did you look at those clips before you posted them. The first one i can say without watching it was webber going passed a back marker where there was obviously a misunderstanding between the 2. The second webber went into ROsberg backwards. So how do you think this is webber not "knowing when to avoid overtaking"???

As for Lewis' defence, least he is willing to have a go and not just sit there in hope, like his team mate. Senna did the same, but dont see people calling him a rubbish driver.

by erictheblueuk Tue 26 Jul 2011, 11:15 pm

Critical_mass

I honestley feel if Webber had been more careful he could avoided both accidents.

The first one the guy moves wide to give Webber the inside line to the corner and slows down. For some reason Webber follows him wide and as the guy was slowing he went into the back of him. As he was a back marker I feel Webber should have been looking out for the guy to slow down and let him pass.

The second one he was was simply driving to fast and took the corner too wide for those conditions.

by Belgarion of Riva Wed 27 Jul 2011, 7:27 am

erictheblueuk wrote:
liverbnz wrote:
erictheblueuk wrote:Well done Vettel

There are times when you have to give up or avoid some battles to stay in control of the war.

If Hammy and Webber properly understood this. I think Hammy would have been F1 champ more than once and Webber would probably be the current champ.

Hamilton I understand. Webber I don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kNZzqqdhM0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogfclm8LxeQ

Sebastian won the world championship due to bungled pit stops from Webber and Alonso. You said above that there are times to give up and times to avoid battles, so why did Seb do the following;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slk2PGCux8I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW5z415hH0E&feature=related

Please be consistent with your arguments

by Critical_mass Wed 27 Jul 2011, 8:35 am

Eric, i agree the one at Valencia was a silly mistake that should never have happened and was his fault. But certainly the second one he went to far onto the slippy kerb and it spun, he didnt have any control going backwards and went into Rosberg. His fault for spinning in the first place but out of his control after that as he was a passenger.

by liverbnz Wed 27 Jul 2011, 10:59 am

Critical_mass wrote:Eric, i agree the one at Valencia was a silly mistake that should never have happened and was his fault. But certainly the second one he went to far onto the slippy kerb and it spun, he didnt have any control going backwards and went into Rosberg. His fault for spinning in the first place but out of his control after that as he was a passenger.

Not according to Gerhard! Webber stuck the RB into reverse in the hope of taking out one of his rivals ya know. Rolling Eyes

by erictheblueuk Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:06 pm

Belgarion of Riva

"Please be consistent with your arguments"

----------------------------------------------

I stand by what I've said, I think Webber's avoidable accidents cost him the 2010 title, Vettel's did not.

by liverbnz Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:15 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:Belgarion of Riva

"Please be consistent with your arguments"

----------------------------------------------

I stand by what I've said, I think Webber's avoidable accidents cost him the 2010 title, Vettel's did not.

How exactly? What is it that makes Webber's accidents so different from Vettel's exactly? They both cost themselves points at the end of the day.

by erictheblueuk Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:39 pm

liverbnz

If you know that Vettel went on to be F1 2010 champ then I can't expalin it any better than I already have done.

by liverbnz Wed 27 Jul 2011, 12:43 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:

liverbnz

If you know that Vettel went on to be F1 2010 champ the I can't expalin it any better than I already have done.

I could just as easy say that it was Webber's poor starts in the 2nd half of the season which cost him the title. I can't quite grasp why you are so adamant it was the accidents when it's most likely a number of key factors.

by erictheblueuk Wed 27 Jul 2011, 1:06 pm

liverbnz wrote:
erictheblueuk wrote:

liverbnz

If you know that Vettel went on to be F1 2010 champ the I can't expalin it any better than I already have done.

I could just as easy say that it was Webber's poor starts in the 2nd half of the season which cost him the title. I can't quite grasp why you are so adamant it was the accidents when it's most likely a number of key factors.

I think we're begining to round in circles here.

Even if you have "poor starts" as you said you still have to chance to recover and bring home some points. Once you've crashed out you can't bring home any points at all.

For example he had a poor start in this race but still manged to bring the car home in 3rd place for 15 points.

by Belgarion of Riva Wed 27 Jul 2011, 1:07 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:

liverbnz

If you know that Vettel went on to be F1 2010 champ then I can't expalin it any better than I already have done.

I agree with liverbnz, Webbers accidents didn't cost him the championship, a variety of things did, critically a bungled pit stop at Abu Dhabi.

The only Webber accident that was avoidable was the Valencia one. Meanwhile Vettel was totally culpable for both of his, ending Button's race and ruining Webbers.

by erictheblueuk Wed 27 Jul 2011, 1:14 pm

Belgarion of Riva

Even in Abu Dabi he still finished the race and brought home some points.

Webber could have avoided that accident in Korea, there's no way he should have been anywhere near a slippery curb in those conditions.

by Critical_mass Wed 27 Jul 2011, 1:27 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:Belgarion of Riva

Webber could have avoided that accident in Korea, there's no way he should have been anywhere near a slippery curb in those conditions.

This is true, but drivers do run wide in corners etc. Plus if you're going to go down to that level of details webber should have avoided the accident by not getting in the car in the first place.

by liverbnz Wed 27 Jul 2011, 1:29 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:
liverbnz wrote:
erictheblueuk wrote:

liverbnz

If you know that Vettel went on to be F1 2010 champ the I can't expalin it any better than I already have done.

I could just as easy say that it was Webber's poor starts in the 2nd half of the season which cost him the title. I can't quite grasp why you are so adamant it was the accidents when it's most likely a number of key factors.

I think we're begining to round in circles here.

Even if you have "poor starts" as you said you still have to chance to recover and bring home some points. Once you've crashed out you can't bring home any points at all.

For example he had a poor start in this race but still manged to bring the car home in 3rd place for 15 points.

Which is 10 points less than where he started the race. There is no sane way anyone can categogorically say that it was Webber's accidents alone that cost him the title. What about his shoulder injury? Vettel costing him victory in Turkey? RB supposedly favouring the German over him?

by erictheblueuk Wed 27 Jul 2011, 2:06 pm

liverbnz

He may have got 10 points less but my point is, it's better than zero points for crashing out to an avoidable accident.

No one's "categogorically" saying anything here, it's just my opinion that Webber's two avoidable accidents cost him the 2010 title.

by erictheblueuk Wed 27 Jul 2011, 2:13 pm

Belgarion of Riva

"The only Webber accident that was avoidable was the Valencia one. Meanwhile Vettel was totally culpable for both of his, ending Button's race and ruining Webbers"

---------------------------------------------------------

I think both of Webber's accidents were avoidable and his fault.

But I think you may have accidentally hit the nail on the head here.

In the accidents we're discussing Webber took out people that didn't matter in terms of the F1 title race whereas Vettel took out rivals in the title race.

by fantantonio Wed 27 Jul 2011, 4:11 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:Belgarion of Riva

"The only Webber accident that was avoidable was the Valencia one. Meanwhile Vettel was totally culpable for both of his, ending Button's race and ruining Webbers"

---------------------------------------------------------

I think both of Webber's accidents were avoidable and his fault.

But I think you may have accidentally hit the nail on the head here.

In the accidents we're discussing Webber took out people that didn't matter in terms of the F1 title race whereas Vettel took out rivals in the title race.

I hope were not hinting that Vettel ensured that if he was going out of the race that he took another title contender out Shocked

by omar22 Thu 28 Jul 2011, 1:36 pm

erictheblueuk wrote:Well done Vettel

There are times when you have to give up or avoid some battles to stay in control of the war.

If Hammy and Webber properly understood this. I think Hammy would have been F1 champ more than once and Webber would probably be the current champ.

And how many time did Lewis Crash last season? Singapore and Monza (2wice) Webber wiped him out in Australia, Gearbox failure in both Hungary and Japan!!! Suspension failure in Spain.... McLaren wasnt fast enough Simple!!!!!!! its got nothing to do with Lewis... Vettel crashed in Spa, Turkey, failed to finish in Korea drive tru penalty in Hungary and some where else... and still won thats how fast Red BUll is........ Lewis in Red Bull starting from the front! I guess every other team would by now concentrate on next season!!!

by dyrewolfe Thu 28 Jul 2011, 3:30 pm

Amazing race - one of the best of the season, so far. Could that be because the Nurburgring is a better track than Hockenheim?

Anyway, some amazing highlights. Hamilton beating Webber at the start. Hamilton retaking the lead from Webber after his pit stop. Hamilton catching Alonso napping on his pit exit and overtaking him round the outside. Vettel getting the jump on Massa in that last-lap pitstop.

Decent result for Ferrari. Alonso continuing to spearhead their revival and only just failing to make it back-to-back wins.

Some great racing between the front 3. Is it me or did Sutil get Force India's best ever result, finishing 6th?

Another solid if unspectacular result for Mercedes with Rosberg and Schumi 7th and 8th. Another great drive from Kobayashi. Started 18th but finished 9th. You have to wonder what he could do in a top 3 car.

by Fernando Thu 28 Jul 2011, 3:37 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Amazing race - one of the best of the season, so far. Could that be because the Nurburgring is a better track than Hockenheim? did Sutil get Force India's best ever result, finishing 6th?

I much prefer the Nurburgring after what they've done to Hockenheim mad

it's not Force India's Best Result as that was Fisichella in Belgium in 09 when he came 2nd spent the race on Raikkonen's tail just couldn't get pace.

by dummy_half Thu 28 Jul 2011, 3:47 pm

There were a couple of disappointments in the race:
Button getting a shocking start and taking such a long time to get up to speed, and then when he was cutting through the middle points places having to come in because of a hydraulics issue. Could have ended as high as 4th without the issues (the front 3 were well clear).

Vettel had a poor race. I know above I defended him a bit referring to the RB being not set up to aid overtaking, but he was some way off the pace anyway. At least he did an adequate job of minimising the damage to his points haul.

Hockenheim has also produced some good on track battles in recent years, mainly because of the tight hairpin and wide track on the exit, allowing cars to take differing lines through (fast in / slow out racing against cars running in wide and cutting underneath).

by dyrewolfe Fri 29 Jul 2011, 2:15 pm

Button's had some shockingly bad luck the last couple of races, when he was looking set for a good finish. He's having a difficult enough time as it is without having loose wheels and hydraulic failures.

@fernando: completely forgot about Fisichella's 2nd place at Spa. Wouldn't have expected him to get past Kimi. Was it a wet race? Can't remember the race but I'm guessing he must've had a bit of luck to finish on the podium.

by Fernando Fri 29 Jul 2011, 2:20 pm

i think it was dry race can't say for definite though.

by dummy_half Fri 29 Jul 2011, 3:19 pm

Was a dry race, and a year the Force India was just frighteningly fast on the straights, so was brilliant round Spa and Monza but a bit of a beast around more technically demanding tracks.

IIRC, Fisi missed out on pole by hundredths of a second and was never anywhere but under Kimi's back wing in the race. Was a 2nd place entirely on merit.

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