England vs India 2nd Test debate

Sides

England:

1) Andrew Strauss (C)
2) Alistair Cook
3) Jonathan Trott
4) Kevin Pietersen
5) Ian Bell
6) Eoin Morgan
7) Matt Prior (WK)
8) Tim Bresnan
9) Stuart Broad
10) Graeme Swann
11) James Anderson

India:

1) Abhinav Makund
2) Rahul Dravid
3) Sachin Tendulkar
4) VVS Laxman
5) Yuvraj Singh
6) Suresh Raina
7) MS Dhoni (WK)
8) Harbhajan Singh
9) Praveen Kumar
10) Sreesanth
11) Ishant Sharma

Stickied

Let's have some clean, non-hostile discussion!

India should be worried about that bowling attack IMO. Sharma and Sreesanth can both be wayward and Harby seems to have forgotten how to bowl an attacking line. Kumar should do well at Trent Bridge as it should swing, but England are surely favourites going into this one.

well they have said gambhir is a doubt, so you would expect dravid to relectuantly open and yuvraj 5 or 6...

Hadn't heard much of Kumar before the first test, but I'll be interested to see how he goes over 5 days in a 4 man attack.

India have 3 wicket taking seamers, but if England apply themselves as they did in the first innings of the first test we can look to cash in as the ball gets older and stops swinging.

india will be in a pickle when the greats retire, although they will probably go with, kohli, raina and pujara in the future

Dravid has a shoddy record as an opener though CF, could India conceivably take a bigger gamble and ask Yuvraj to do the job, maybe even Raina (who bats 3 in T20)?

yuvraj is poor against the new ball, saw it in the ipl..i no its not the same, but he tried to get himself in when he faced the new ball and couldnt deal with the swing, i also think raina should stay in the middle order

The first test indicates that should Gambhir not make it that Dravid will open. Doubt his ability at facing a swinging new ball though, irrespective of his record...

even though he bats 3, and is sometimes in 2nd ball of the game as sehwag is unpredictable, and his overral record batting 3 is awesome, so he must b able to play a swinging new ball

I mean as an out of position opener. No doubt he's done it before.

cricketfan90 wrote:india will be in a pickle when the greats retire, although they will probably go with, kohli, raina and pujara in the future

Is Pujara in the country? Only seen a bit of him but he looks the part and should be somewhere in the middle order in the not too distant future..

yeah but for some reason he averages more than 20 runs less when opening than at n°3, and has opened in 15 tests, so not negligible either. He seems to go too much into his shell when opening the batting (SR is much lower), maybe he just gets stuck into "see the new ball off" mode.

Linebreaker wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:india will be in a pickle when the greats retire, although they will probably go with, kohli, raina and pujara in the future

Is Pujara in the country? Only seen a bit of him but he looks the part and should be somewhere in the middle order in the not too distant future..

he's injured but batted very well against australia before getting injured.

Dravid is probably the best of the Indian batsman at playing swing bowling - he's the soundest technican, even better than Sachin in this regard. The not opening thing I think has always been more psychological than technical.

Engalnd must start as favourites, given their win in the first test and the depletion of India in both batting and seam bowling (let's face it, if England had to go into a Test without Strauss, Cook and Anderson, we'd look seriously weakened as well). However, even with the weakening of the Indian batting line-up, there's still the challenge of getting through their middle order without conceding too many runs.

Yeah, it's still a challenge but it's amazing what 'momentum' can do with the England players driven to succeed, players all chiming in with runs & wickets... and an injury-ridden India on the back foot and struggling to perform up to their usual standards. Huge pressure from back home too... but if England can accomplish 'the plan' without too many faults - they might make it look easy!

It's like the Ashes - selectors & even some fans were in denial... (when it was obvious to some of us - although there was nothing the fans could do about it) that the mojo was gone. Of course the management and players would say that "all is fine", "we've got our best possible XI", etc - but the reality was they weren't good enough and that England had better form and preparation... and then successfully followed through with the plan.

It's the same scenario for this series I believe and India are similarly clutching at straws at the moment. There could be a turnaround for India but I think it's highly unlikely; more 60:40 in favour of England... maybe even more.

It is like a set of scales...the point where it tips beyond 50-50...then favours the challenger. Almost impossible to stop the shift in the balance of power...but then again: cricket is a funny game!

The only thig in India's favor going into the match is their record in coming back after a sound thrashing. Everything else seem to be stacked against them. Without Zaheer, their bowling will be weaker. 4 years ago when India won at TB, he blasted through England and set up the series for India. The ball swings so much there, and Zak has more control over it than anyone else has.
Sreesanth, if he gets it right, can do a pretty good job, and Ishant Sharma can trouble the best when he's on song. India has nothing to expect from Harbhajan in tirms of wickets, he'll bowl it fast and flat, and may not go for many. Praveen Kumar goes into a test match with the burden of expectation, as the ball does swing a lot here.
The Batting also has huge problems, if Gambhir is not available, I think Rahul Dravid will open. Although Dravid has the right technique to deal with the swinging ball, he doesnt like opening, and that can have an impact on his performance. Also Yuvraj, Good ODI player he is, is not so good in test cricket, particularly against spin, and quality pace. He can't bat in the top 3, so VVS will have to move up to 3. That leaves India with Yuvraj, Raina and Dhoni from 5 to 7, adding more pressure on the top 4 that includes the young inexperienced Abhinav Mukund.

Not so sure that Zaheer has more control over the swinging ball than Anderson, though he is a fine swing bowler nonetheless and will be sorely missed by India.

Trent Bridge should be a cracker, especially if we have some cloud cover, runs will be rather hard to come by.

I empathise with you mate but honestly - you can't rely on the 'record in coming back...' or 'we usually start slowly, then...'.

That's what we said in Australia. 'They haven't won here for 24 years,....', 'We'll come good like we always do at home', etc.

These statements make for interesting conversation but they don't account for the difficult reality India is in with Zak pretty much ruling himself out, Sreesanth - full of energy but not much gametime and also can be wayward under pressure, Yuvi - more weight on him and he doesn't want to open, Bhaji - improved a little in 2nd innings but still not the Bhaji we know. Even Sachin looks a bit jaded by it all. If no GG, then even more pressure on Dravid, VVS, Raina and Dhoni.... it's just too much to handle I would say. Not having a go, I want to see a thrilling contest but the odds are stacked against India at the moment.

Well, that's why I said the only thing to hope for is the come back record, everythig else offers only a bag of serious concerns.
I don't see Yuvraj opening, his game is not tempred to play the swing new ball. If he plays, the only advantage is that we may have a spinner who may get a wicket or 2, at least that of Kevin Pietersen!!!!.

Sreesanth is being written of here, but the guy has serious talent. Some of his bowling spells have been World class, but he needs to work on the mental side of the game and not go nuts if things go wrong slightly.

If Gambhir isn't around, I'd have Yuvraj to open. He's not an opener, but neither was Sehwag, the added responsibility may finally kick his brain into gear.

Don't think the issue with Yuvraj is just a mental one that can be addressed by applying his brain alone. The issue has equaly to do with technique, He can't play with confidence with close in fielders around, and his technique is not good enough to deal with the moving ball at good pace.
Of course you don't always need a textbook technique to make it big as Sehwag would suggest, but you need a working technique, unfortunately for Yuvi, his technique has been found wanting as far as test cricket is concerned.
Besides, Yuvraj did open in the past, against Australia in India, and the effects were disastrous.
Yuvraj has worked on his game after he was dropped from the test and ODI sides last year, and the results were there to be seen in the ODI WC. He is slowly trying to find his way back to test cricket, making him open against a quality pace unit in swing conditions just wouldnt help Yuvraj or India.

July 29- August 2, Trent Bridge
Start time 1100 (1000 GMT, 1530 IST)

2nd Test Scenario as per cricinfo....

England's comprehensive victory at Lord's, with a performance hailed by their captain as "outstanding", has put them one step closer to the much-desired No. 1 spot in the ICC Test rankings. Some are already proclaiming them the best team in the world, irrespective of what the rankings say. Others suggest they aren't yet, and that judgment should be withheld until later in the series, given India's remarkable knack of bouncing back after defeats in series-openers.

An injury-hit India presents England with a great opportunity to settle the debate. MS Dhoni's side is crippled by the loss of arguably their most influential player, Zaheer Khan, due to a hamstring problem.

What will make it worse is if Gautam Gambhir, who is still recovering from a blow to the elbow he took in the first Test, joins the injury list. While India at least have a couple of back-up quick bowlers to choose from to replace Zaheer, Gambhir's absence could end up upsetting the batting configuration. One of three makeshift openers will have to be employed - Yuvraj Singh, Rahul Dravid or Wriddhiman Saha - and the experienced middle order, India's biggest strength, could be exposed early to the swinging ball.

England start as favourites in Trent Bridge, but as India have repeatedly shown, they are a surprisingly resilient side, regularly managing to circumvent problems caused by their relatively weak bowling line-up. Can they do it once again?

Team news
The most settled side in world cricket, England's only concern is the hamstring problem that is troubling their tall fast bowler Chris Tremlett. Andrew Strauss is confident Tremlett will be fit to play but even if he isn't, there's a ready replacement in Tim Bresnan. The rest of the XI are certain picks.

England 1 Alastair Cook, 2 Andrew Strauss (capt), 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Kevin Pietersen, 5 Ian Bell, 6 Eoin Morgan, 7 Matt Prior (wk), 8 Graeme Swann, 9 Stuart Broad, 10 Chris Tremlett/Tim Bresnan, 11 James Anderson

India have more to ponder. The good news for Indian fans is Sachin Tendulkar has recovered from the viral fever that troubled him in the first Test. The bad news is that Zaheer is out and Gambhir could join him on the sidelines. Sreesanth is likely to get his first Test since Cape Town six months ago, and Yuvraj Singh could get yet another shot at reviving his Test career.

India 1 Abhinav Mukund, 2 Gautam Gambhir/Yuvraj Singh, 3 Rahul Dravid, 4 Sachin Tendulkar, 5 VVS Laxman, 6 Suresh Raina, 7 MS Dhoni (capt & wk), 8 Harbhajan Singh, 9 Praveen Kumar, 10 Ishant Sharma, 11 Sreesanth

Pitch and conditions
This is a ground that is famous for its swing, and teams have struggled to score big in recent years. India's phalanx of experienced batsmen can expect a thorough workout against an on-song England pace attack.
The clouds are expected to stay away this week, with warm and dry weather forecast.

Good luck to both! But come on INDIA:

Your comments....

Threads merged

Cheers Sainty

Deleted your comment too mate just for continuity's sake

Yeah thats fine mate

Tremlett looking doutbful for tomorrow, Bresnan will get the nod if he's not fit. Trent Bridge conditions should suit him so I don't think Tremlett will be massively missed.

finn has been called up to the squad new from sky sports

Although Finns done well recently i'm surprised he's been called up. Conditions at Trent Bridge will suit Bresnan more than Finn. Unless this is just a precaution incase of any more injurys.

i just hope the over rate picks up..

the indians over rate was ridiclous and they only had 2 seamers!

I don't see the point in calling up Finn, not unless he is going to play. I doubt he will, but it just seems a bit ridiculous. We picked our 11 and an extra bowler, now we have a bowler injured (but not yet ruled out) why doesn't Bresnan just step in?

I think it's all just mind games, so India won't know which of the 3 seamers they'll be facing until the toss.

dravid i assume will open tomorrow then, with gambhir being a huge doubt.

robbo277 wrote:I don't see the point in calling up Finn, not unless he is going to play. I doubt he will, but it just seems a bit ridiculous. We picked our 11 and an extra bowler, now we have a bowler injured (but not yet ruled out) why doesn't Bresnan just step in?

I think it's all just mind games, so India won't know which of the 3 seamers they'll be facing until the toss.

Can't see why they've called him up unless he's there to step in if Tremlett isn't fit.
Unless they just want cover in case Tremlett can't play and someone else treads on a ball during the warm-up.

im staggered to why india didnt put vijay in their squad, when they know sehwag will miss mjority of series

India's hopes also is dependent on the track, contrary to perceptions, they tend to do well on tracks that have some life in them. Their bowling unit, particularly without Zaheer, struggles on flat wickets. Sreesanth, Ishant and Praveen Kumar, all should enjoy some favorable conditions at TB. if they get going, and if Yuvraj plays, then he can control the runs and may be pick up a wicket or 2, with Harbhajan chipping in with a few flat and fast lackluster overs, and if luck goes his way, some lower order runs.

I thought that India put up a pretty good fight in the 1st test, especially considering their best bowler was injured for the most of the match, and two of their batsman were afflicted (by illness and an arm injury).

I expect this to be very competitive (even without Zaheer).

Unlike others, I can see the logic in calling up Finn - he's essentially a like for like replacement for Tremlett (tall, hit the deck and look for bounce just back of a length), and might get a game if it looks like the wicket is hard and dry (would be more effective than Bresnan in such conditions).
I don't want them to mess Broad about again after he found form bowling to a full length at Lords - let's keep him doing that and let someone else be the back of a length bowler.

It is extremely cloudy at Trent Bridge - let's hope we win the toss and stick the Indians in. Wouldn't want to bat first on this pitch!

Have we won yet?

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

robbo277 wrote:I don't see the point in calling up Finn, not unless he is going to play. I doubt he will, but it just seems a bit ridiculous. We picked our 11 and an extra bowler, now we have a bowler injured (but not yet ruled out) why doesn't Bresnan just step in?

I think it's all just mind games, so India won't know which of the 3 seamers they'll be facing until the toss.

Can't see why they've called him up unless he's there to step in if Tremlett isn't fit.
Unless they just want cover in case Tremlett can't play and someone else treads on a ball during the warm-up.

Well someone has to be 12th man!

Tremlett wont be starting so that leaves a simple choice between the two reserve seamers, Bresnan and Finn. Bresnan was seen as the obvious replacement for Broad when he was under threat on form as he can bat 8, Finns more of a replacement for Tremlett in the tall strike bowler role.

Makes perfect sense, unless they start Bresnan....


Looks like India have a good excuse if they lose this. Zaheer, Sehwag and Gambhir out far outweights the Tremlett issue.

Could be another big toss though. Looking at the forecasts this morning could be the only cloudy humid morning. Dont fancy Indias second choice openers facing England at Trent Bridge under cloud.

Morning all.

Cloudy conditions forecast all match. What's the pitch like? Does it take spin later? (I know it swings like a '70s couple )

Bat first bat long, I say. Unless there's some utterly compelling reason not to.

Is there some utterly compelling reason not to?

Yep Tim Bresnan in. That means we'll bat all the way down to no.10!

India have won the toss and will bowl first. Positive decision by Dhoni, or is he scared of what England's attack could do in favourable conditions?

Sreesanth in for Zaheer, Yuvraj for Gambhir. Strauss said he would probably have bowled too, but Headingley usually swings throughout anyway. Bresnan in for Tremlett as expected.

Dhoni looking for his batsmen to score big to win in the last innings?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:India have won the toss and will bowl first. Positive decision by Dhoni, or is he scared of what England's attack could do in favourable conditions?

Sreesanth in for Zaheer, Yuvraj for Gambhir. Strauss said he would probably have bowled too, but Headingley usually swings throughout anyway. Bresnan in for Tremlett as expected.

Trent Bridge

Why does neither side appear to want to bat first? How bad are conditions at Trent Bridge? Thick fog???

Sounds like it could be a tough morning for our batsmen if the Indians can put the ball in the right place - not certain that they can do so often enough (other than Kumar).

Dhoni presumably will be hoping to skittle England out for <250 today, with India then getting to bat in what is usually the best of the conditions tomorrow and Sunday, aiming to rack up a big lead. Let's see if we have enough batting talent to prevent it happening.

Cowshot wrote:Why does neither side appear to want to bat first? How bad are conditions at Trent Bridge? Thick fog???

The last series India played in England was essentially decided by the toss at Trent Bridge.