England V Wales Coverage

First topic message reminder :

...is 23 seconds old and we've revisited Jonny Wilkinson's 2003 final drop goal.

Twice.

I thought Banners did quite well. He'll never be a Lomu so perhaps some should stop dreaming.. I would take him to NZ though.

I've been a critic of Knoyle but he did well. The fact that the pace of the game speeded up towards the end wasn't down to him though. That's the pace the game was played at for the first 20 with Phillips on; in that same period our forwards were smashing rucks then England stood up a bit and we became less effective. I think England got a bit tired then towards the end and could see us start to regain the upper hand at the breakdown. Perhaps that was Spala kicking in?

All in all, people harsh and unfair on Phillips as per, people just looking for a scapegoat imo. As usual he was the only scrum half on the field to cause the opposition problems. I wouldn't change the backline for next week, apart from actually having a full back maybe.. Roberts is better at 12 with Davies at 13. Only thing now though is where do we stick Hook? Fly-half and outside centre cover? Fly-half jersey is Priestlands to lose atm.

Gutted that my stream on my phone kept freezing up so wasn't really able to see much of the second half to be able to comment on it.

Positives that without seeing the second half I can see for England are

1. We won, and a win is a win however it comes. England need to make winning a habit again and should take confidence from it.

2. Delon Armitage looked to have played well and having him in form is a real positive as he can put pressure on Foden to raise his game again.

3. Front 5 seemed to do well in the set piece which is good for setting a platform for the way England will want to play.


Negatives

1. As I say I couldn't see the second half so not sure how well Wales played, but to be 20-7 up and dominating, and then let your opponents back in is not good. We need to learn to close games out better.

7. Moody off injured, which is never a good sign. Would not be surprised if he isn't fit for the World Cup and his leadership would be missed.

Good finish by Wales and on paper it could have been anyone's but unfortunately the same scenario. England were allowed to stay on the front foot for far too long and the real intensity was introduced far too late by Wales.

What would have been advisable to winning the game was to build on the early lead and focus on putting more first half points on the board.

NJ, I think Phillips bring a lot of good to the game, superb defence in the 1st half and he kept England's backrow honest, but when we were trying to push on in the 2nd half his passing was just too slow, I'd have brought Tavis on sooner. I'd still take Phillips to the WC though, with the group we're in, he is needed.

Morgan Stoddart has broken his ankle, Warbs has just said

Agree dreamer. I still think Knoyle is too similar to Phillips to be his back-up. Either of those should start with either of Rees or Williams as back-up. Should be a few changes by both teams next week, but nonetheless I hope the intensity is still as high, especially from us otherwise we will lose.

England, why isn't Haskell considered first choice 8 by SOME of you?

If Flood is coming back next week then it worries me.

*Gutted for Stoddart. I feel that he and a few other Scarlets had nailed their places on the place to NZ with the baa-baa's game and todays game.

Gutted for the lad dreamer, he looked dangerous ball in had and I think would have made the WC squad. Real shame for him.

dogtooth

I am going to merge this with the match coverage thread as a post mortem is going on there already and it will allow everyone to discuss it in one place.

Huge shame for him Pete, after having really bad injuries in the past also. Huge loss for both Wales and the Scarlets too, really hope he has a speedy recovery.

NJ - yeah I see your point. Knoyle and Phillips are very similar, although Knoyle's is a tad speedier. Would like to see Williams get some game time soon.

Flood coming back is a worry. He'd have excelled in the match today, he's a much better distributor than Wilkinson and I think he'd have gotten more out of this new centre partnership then Wilko did. We'll have to watch him closely next week.

In my opinion far more positives for Wales rather than England. Wales improved a few things we have been lacking recently, 1st up tackling was good, I didn't see what the missed tackles stats were but the commitment to not letting easy advantage line runs go was great. Also we found a bit of fluidity with our backs, different angles, inside passes keeping the English defensive line guessing, I think Priestland can take a lot of the praise for that.

As for England, well what have they done that we didn't already know? They have a strong set piece, Wilkinson will kick consistently and put over drop goals, but should they have been looking to try and add some factions to their game, especially having been 20-7 up.

rugbydreamer wrote:Morgan Stoddart has broken his ankle, Warbs has just said

Yeah it's gutting, I'm very sorry for him, though in the context of the game the break during the injury galavanised Wales and took Englands momentum away. Very sad though, he looks deadly on the counter.

Is it true that Barnes gave Wilkinson MOTM? If so, what ever for? Thought he was a bit clueless in attack, boot good as per; but the fact he was slotting over drop-goals leads me to believe England valued this warm-up game. Some had said otherwise in the past week. I thought Wales showed great intent by always looking to attack and not going for penalty goals... Wonder how we'll play it next though?

Real shame for Stoddart, wish him a speedy recovery.

I don't think Wilkinson was the problem when it came down to distribution dreamer, I thought the centres were poor in that regard, if anything Wilkinson with his two drop goals was the difference between Wales winning the game and the eventual outcome.

Tuilagi is a bit keen to go into contact and missed a couple of outside breaks in the first half.

Flutey didn't do enough for me and it's been a while since he has to be honest.

I can forgive Tuialgi missing the outside breaks and getting a bit over excited though PJ, it was his debut after all and I thought he had a decent game.

Flutey didn't show enough for me. He is an experienced player and I expected more. He was the player I was most disappointed with for England today.

oh yeah deffo the difference between winning and losing PJ, but I just assumed England would be going into this game to get more out of their back play (well specifically the centres) and they just didn't seem to do that. Whether that was down to Wilko, or the centres, or a combination of both I don't know.

All I do know is that I feel Flood is a lot more comfortable then Wilkinson playing a running game, and Wales would have struggled a lot more today if he'd been at 10 I feel. Personally I feel he's a lot more of an attacking threat. Not sure I agree with Wilkinson being MotM, but guess the drop goals swung it for him.

Shocking decision. Thought Priestland and Haskell put their hands up today for that award. Anyone reckon Brian Moore will give it to an England player next week for making one good tackle?

PJHolybloke wrote:I don't think Wilkinson was the problem when it came down to distribution dreamer, I thought the centres were poor in that regard, if anything Wilkinson with his two drop goals was the difference between Wales winning the game and the eventual outcome.

I agree the MoM award goes to the person who makes the difference in the game, and that was Wilkinson with his cool head and drop goals. If Barnes was being silly he could of given it to Manu Tuilagi.

Flood can be more of a threat as an attacking force, but I am not yet convinced that he is a top class international 10. Sometimes under pressure his game management goes to pieces still, and in the heat of battle in a World Cup knockout game I think I would still prefer to have Jonny steering the good ship England.

Oh yeah I agree Jonny controlls matches very well, superb kicking on him today, and if England were going into this match just for the win then he was the right one to go with. If they were looking to find out something new from new combinations however, I don't think they can take too much out of this game is all.

I think this game was just the starter, and next week will really be a full blooded test match. At times in the game both sides seem to just be spectating rather than being fully involved. I don't think it will happen next week as both sides will be a week further in their preparations.

I am not sure whether England were poorer at the end of the game as they lost experienced players through substitutions or lack of fitness. I hope it's not the later as Wales continued to play at a high intensity level right to the end.

Thought England in the first half played good pragmatic rugby and in the right areas with Wilko and Care controlling the game well. Then after Manu scored thought we would push on but we just stuttered to the end of the match.

I thought Armitage played well and made some good runs. Tuilagi looked very competent, got over the gainline well and scored a try. Shaw carried well and showed his good hands. I also thought Banahan made some good yards on the wing.

Wilko was a tad patchy for me some good moments but when we faltered in attack it seemed to stem from him lacking direction at times and not keeping things ticking over. Care played well but didnt think Flutey stood out enough to put him in excellent contention to get on the plane. Would still prefer him to Hape.

Well done England, really nice to get a win under the belt, especially against the Welsh. I am sure we all wish Morgan Stoddart a speedy recovery.

I wouldn't criticise Flutey too much to be honest, Wales back row are more about mobility than power and Wales had 2 monsters in Davies and Roberts against him, so those conditions are not exactly condusive to Fluteys style of play. Flutey was clearly a decoy to tie Welsh players in to give Tuilagi and Banahan space to smash into. Wales seemed to be defending that gap between 10 and 12 today with a lot of men to stop Wilkinson and Flutey putting players through gaps there.

I thought he played relatively well and is a very good thinking rugby player. But I am just concerned whether his performance would impress MJ enough for him to get on the plane which I really hope he does.

Didn't mention this in previous pots thought Wales played very well, good structure and looked dangerous with prolonged amounts of time on the ball. Jamie Roberts looked back to his best.

Roberts was still a bit predictable though don't you think Manu? Everyone knows what he's going to do when he gets teh ball. Although I was very impressed with him in defence.

Surprised England didn't target him more when he got moved to FB.

Yeah you know what he was going to do but he was still mighty effective got over the gainline frequently. Giving wales quick ball, thought he did more than JD2 if I am honest.

When he moved to FB England were void of much direction really, too many different players on so lost momentum. I would have done the same thing if I was MJ though need to see everyone in a match. Would like Sharples to start next week didn't get much of a chance and he did look very fast when he did.

rugbydreamer wrote:Roberts was still a bit predictable though don't you think Manu? Everyone knows what he's going to do when he gets teh ball. Although I was very impressed with him in defence.

Surprised England didn't target him more when he got moved to FB.

I think it was too late when Roberts was at Full back, the English pack was out on it's feet with 15 minutes to go, the last thing they wanted to do was kick it long, with only Englands backs chasing, only for Wales to keep possetion and have their backs running at shattered English forwards. England did the right thing by keeping possestion and running the clock down. England looked like theyve been in the gym lifting weights and doing ball skills work, while Wales looked like they have been doing fitness and speed work.
If we have Gethin and Adam back next week, and Bennett can keep a bit of consistency, and with a passionate Welsh crowd behind them, England could have a hell of a shock.
I'm a bit confused about our back line though for next week. If Jones has strained a calf he wont be fit and we've lost Stoddard as well, so Priestland at 10 and Tovey maybe at Full back?

Tovey has a back injury doesn't he?

Could see Hook or perhaps 1/2p at FB.

Good points on the England forwards tiring by the end of the match and the effect the substituions had on the game. Two parts of the match Wales came out on top I feel.

AlynDavies wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Roberts was still a bit predictable though don't you think Manu? Everyone knows what he's going to do when he gets teh ball. Although I was very impressed with him in defence.

Surprised England didn't target him more when he got moved to FB.

I think it was too late when Roberts was at Full back, the English pack was out on it's feet with 15 minutes to go, the last thing they wanted to do was kick it long, with only Englands backs chasing, only for Wales to keep possetion and have their backs running at shattered English forwards. England did the right thing by keeping possestion and running the clock down. England looked like theyve been in the gym lifting weights and doing ball skills work, while Wales looked like they have been doing fitness and speed work.
If we have Gethin and Adam back next week, and Bennett can keep a bit of consistency, and with a passionate Welsh crowd behind them, England could have a hell of a shock.
I'm a bit confused about our back line though for next week. If Jones has strained a calf he wont be fit and we've lost Stoddard as well, so Priestland at 10 and Tovey maybe at Full back?

Both teams lacked intensity at times in the game and englands was at the end mostly, but I think it is also to do with the amount of changes made which lost england some momentum and key leaders. At the end it was a distinctly second string team. So it was a mixture of that an lack of fitness. That can be improved on and I do think we will be fine by Ireland match. I do think there will still be some heavy blowers next week.

Think game will be higher intensity next week, with England personally I think fielding a slightly stronger team, not with talent in some areas but better combinations.

rugbydreamer wrote:Roberts was still a bit predictable though don't you think Manu? Everyone knows what he's going to do when he gets teh ball. Although I was very impressed with him in defence.

Surprised England didn't target him more when he got moved to FB.

I ACTUALLY SAW ROBERTS BEING USED AS A DECOY!

He was an effective attacking centre and a excellent defensive centre. By far our best defensive player and is finding his Lions form at the right time (partly due to an effective Welsh attacking platform for once)

I dont think the tired English wanted to kick to Roberts to let him run at them

Question : Will Henson play next week? We dont want to field a weak team with Henson exposed, but with Stoddart out, we may need a versatile backup player in the backs?

Its a real shame about Stoddart, after today I would have him as first choice Fullback (I can see Byrne having a shocker when he returns )

Next week I'd like to see

Williams
Hook
Shane
Henson
Roberts
North
Priestland

LDCPete wrote:I can forgive Tuialgi missing the outside breaks and getting a bit over excited though PJ, it was his debut after all and I thought he had a decent game.

Flutey didn't show enough for me. He is an experienced player and I expected more. He was the player I was most disappointed with for England today.

Yep fair comment Pete, I was impressed by his overall performance without doubt, tackled well, didn't get drawn out of position, took his try very, very well and looked like he belonged.

I'm just concerned about England's ability to create anything through the midfield, it's very one-dimensional with the vast majority of ball just taken bang into contact. Tuilagi would be a fearsome prospect to bring on after 60 minutes against tiring opposition though.

According to Corry, Tuilagi and Sharples are both in danger of a long haul flight in the near future. Think Sharples will start next week.

wales606 wrote:[Question : Will Henson play next week? We dont want to field a weak team with Henson exposed, but with Stoddart out, we may need a versatile backup player in the backs?

I was wondering what our Full Back options might be... Henson could be the guy for the 15 shirt. If Gatland tells him it's now or never for a World Cup shirt, Wales Vs England at Cardiff, then Henson may just raise his game with the crowd behind him.

Wales hammered us at the breakdown. We just couldn't get any quick ball going there at all. Whether this is just a selection issue I don't know, but it needs sorting.

I thought Banahan played well, as did Armitage and Tuilagi. Would have had no complaints if Wales had won, although I think their team was nearer the first choice XV than ours. Next week will be very interesting. Hope to see Sheridan, Cole and Lawes in the team as the pack got outplayed today.

Wales were much more patient today and that paid massive dividends for them.

I think I counted thirteen phases before one of the tries..

Great work. Good fitness levels too. I think Poland has paid off in this match.

Knoyle and Priestland were excellent.

Awful news about Stoddard.

We need out first choice front row out there against theirs.

Welsh player of the match was Bennett, after all the stick he get he really stode up well.

tomathy wrote: although I think their team was nearer the first choice XV than ours.

it wasnt even that near the expected starting fifteen? Stephen jones pulled out, we had no fullback a third choices in the front row. I think that half that team were not wales first choices and that this game showed that the strength and depth in the welsh squad is a lot stronger than people gave credit for before.

I think in the last 20 we beat you at the break down tomathy, but England definitely had the upper hand there for most of the first half.

maestegmafia wrote:

tomathy wrote: although I think their team was nearer the first choice XV than ours.

it wasnt even that near the expected starting fifteen? Stephen jones pulled out, we had no fullback a third choices in the front row. I think that half that team were not wales first choices and that this game showed that the strength and depth in the welsh squad is a lot stronger than people gave credit for before.

Based on the six nations I think that the side Wales named had 10 first choice players, 9 after Jones pulled out. England by my count had 3 of our first choice six nations players, plus the return of croft and moody.

rugbydreamer wrote:I think in the last 20 we beat you at the break down tomathy, but England definitely had the upper hand there for most of the first half.

I think we had problems there all game. We were in your 22 a fair bit towards the end of the first half but couldn't get anywhere because Wales were doing such a good job of slowing it down at the ruck. Will watch the recording again but I really think we were struggling to clear rucks out all day

Ha well I think Wales were struggling with the same thing! Perhaps we just nullified each other then in that area.

Both teams coughed ball up but that is to be expected in the first game.

tomathy- Didn't think the pack were that bad? They carried well and did well in the set piece apart from a few turnovers was a decent performance no?

Gutted for Morgan, he always gives it 110% whenever I've seen him play.

Wish him a speedy recovery.

As for the game I was surprised to see England win to be honest, so looking forward to next week how do people see this one going in this little mini series?

I fancy an England win

Maesteg, I've been critical of Huw Bennett in the past but he was solid today and deserves a lot of credit. It was a much better performance from him than I've seen for a long time.

tomathy wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

tomathy wrote: although I think their team was nearer the first choice XV than ours.

it wasnt even that near the expected starting fifteen? Stephen jones pulled out, we had no fullback a third choices in the front row. I think that half that team were not wales first choices and that this game showed that the strength and depth in the welsh squad is a lot stronger than people gave credit for before.

Based on the six nations I think that the side Wales named had 10 first choice players, 9 after Jones pulled out. England by my count had 3 of our first choice six nations players, plus the return of croft and moody.

The side that played the six nations was missing a bunch of first choice players too. Gethin Jenkins and Adam Jones were two notable absentees in the six Nations.

7 is much nearer the amount of first picks

For those of you who read this ( and old 606) will know that I am most probably Bennetts biggest critic but he did have most probably his best game today, thoguh still shouldn't go to NZ.

Geth and Adam need to start next week with Delve at 8.

The thing is, we still don't really know our strongest team.

James (2nd)
Bennett (3rd)
Mitchell (2nd)
Davies (1st)
Jones (1st)
Lydiate (1st)
Warburton (1st)
Faletau (?)
Phillips (?)
Priestland (3rd)
Williams (1st)
Roberts (?)
Davies (?)
North (1st)
Stoddart (3rd)

At my count that's 6 definite 1st choices. Anyway, doesn't really matter now. Roll on next week!

bedfordwelsh wrote:For those of you who read this ( and old 606) will know that I am most probably Bennetts biggest critic but he did have most probably his best game today, thoguh still shouldn't go to NZ.

Geth and Adam need to start next week with Delve at 8.

I agree I am chuffed for Bennett his best game for 10 years for Wales. Was every where in the loose, hit rucks, won turnover ball and really stood up to the English pack. He even managed to throw straight in the line outs! All i can assume is Robin Mcbryde has dug a hole, cemented Bennett's feet in concrete and made him throw the ball at a line of chalk on a goal post, until he learned to throw straight. What ever happened in Poland he;s done a dam sight better than Jon Humphreys has done at the Ospreys anyway. Your only as good as your last game and Bennett was brilliant. But he needs to do this more often.

I agree about Gethin and Adam, we can't be under pressure in the front row next week. Though I wouldn't pick Delve. Faletau needs to play against England, and Delve against Argentina.

Draigoch wrote:The thing is, we still don't really know our strongest team.

15 Bryne
14 North
13 Roberts
12 Davies
11 Williams
10 Jones
9 Phillips
8 Faletau
7 Warburton
6 Lydiate
5 Davies
4 Jones
3 Jones
2 Ress
1 Jenkins

It picks itself really, apart from Jones or Faletau at 8.

Is that our strongest team?

15. Byrne? Stoddart? Preistland?
14. Halfpenny? North?
13. Roberts? Hook? Davies?
12. Roberts? Hook? Davies? Henson?
10. Jones? Hook? Preistland?
8. Jones? Faletau? Delve?
1. Jenkins? James

Disagree re Bennett.He was as usual good in the loose.At lineout even his Mam would admit he was "patchy".Hopefully Burns will start next week.
Sorry for Toby who had a bit of a mare today.
Lydiate and Warbs looked the bizz.
Hold my hands up re Stoddart as I always thought him a lightweight showpony.He has filled the jersey and I wish him well.

Alyn - I'm not sure, our 8-9-10 and 12-13 combinations in particular are ones I'm not happy with. I'm really hoping whoever is picked next week causes chaos and we can go 100% with that.

Bennett surprised me today, I have to admit. But the second mucked up lineout lead to the scrum where they scored a try. You could say this cost us 7 points..