Could/should the Wales v England game be abandoned?

First topic message reminder :

Considering the strain that the law enforcement and emergency agencies are under in a seemingly viral and unprecedented series of civil insurrections, if the rioting and looting doesn't stop by Wednesday, should the MS game go on on Saturday?

In the big scheme of things sporting occasions come well down the list of priorities. And all the boys in blue will be on stand-by presumably nationally. And policing any sporting event seems a bit of a questionable luxury.

I take it you're in favour of the game going ahead then GG - Nice one - True rugby fan

Yeah, absolutely. Fingers crossed. If not I think the government should encourage the 60,000+ disappointed spectators to join the police lines at the next disturbance and let the little gob shoites know how we feel about it.

Also just had a giggle at the BBC website who have suspiciously chosen a mock-up of women's beach volleyball to lead their article about the effect of rioting on sport under the imaginative tag line "Olympic sports such as women's beach volleyball could be put under threat by strained police resources".

TheGreyGhost wrote:Yeah, absolutely. Fingers crossed. If not I think the government should encourage the 60,000+ disappointed spectators to join the police lines at the next disturbance and let the little gob shoites know how we feel about it.

Also just had a giggle at the BBC website who have suspiciously chosen a mock-up of women's beach volleyball to lead their article about the effect of rioting on sport under the imaginative tag line "Olympic sports such as women's beach volleyball could be put under threat by strained police resources".

Good news GG, the women's bv is still going ahead but the finals are brought forward to 19.15!

"They can take our tracksuits but they'll never take take our thinly veiled fap-a-thon!"

Maybe they could just get the beach volleyball players to parade around infront of the rioting idiots, it would soon take their minds off looting - then the volleyball girls could lead them straight to the nick - docile as you like!

From the look of some of the rioters they'd be likely to lose their loot before they got all the way to the nick.

Looking at the telly, Cameron in his best whistle spouting carp.
May promising entirely impossible dire threats when our prisons are already full to overspill.
Boris (also in his best bib) taking a photo opportunity with a brand new unused broom still with the price tag on surrounded by grinning camp-followers all clean and grinning who clearly haven't done a stroke all day.

Meanwhile in Hackney, the kids are grouping and circling...

Switch off the closed mobile social networks now (temporarily). The open ones like Twitter are being closely monitored.

The closed groups are the means by which the messages are passed and unless the numbers are known, they are hidden.

Portnoy wrote:
Boris (also in his best bib) taking a photo opportunity with a brand new unused broom still with the price tag on surrounded by grinning camp-.

Boris lifting a looted broom? we're doomed.

Portnoy, you'd think riots have never happened before social media the way you're talking. The clean up that people have been running has been run through various social media systems. There are also people in other places (such as up here in Glasgow and of course in Cardiff) where nothing of this sort has happened (yet). Taking away the social media is not going to make the people in these places feel less like rioting and I'm sure they can still phone their mates or set up an anonymous message board like this one to get round the usual social networks.

Government control of the internet is a very slippery slope and not one we should start falling down just yet. You propose disabling social media as a cure for the riots? It would do very little except annoy folk.

People riot because they want to riot and feel they can get away with it. As soon as they don't feel that they can get away with it they will stop. The police will be out in far greater numbers tonight and the crack down will be harder. Fewer and fewer people will want to riot and they will gradually peter out.

+1

screamingaddabs wrote:The police will be out in far greater numbers tonight and the crack down will be harder. Fewer and fewer people will want to riot and they will gradually peter out.

Well that, and they'll mostly be at home in front of the new widescreen watching X-factor.

Government control of the internet is a very slippery slope and not one we should start falling down just yet.

So is moderation of rugby forums, and I for one say we stand up against it! Together!

Kicking off (aparently) in Solihull and Salford.

What is? The super league? I thought that started months ago!

I tried starting this conversation earlier but the mods removed it
For some reason! I see football games being cancelled, anyone think Wales v England might get cancelled
Due to rioting?

I think you's start a riot if you cancelled a Cardiff game! Can you imagine all those angry, píssed up valley roiders spoiling for a fight because Wales didn't play!

Try the international forum mate the thread is in there.

Hmm....

Sooooo:

London locked down because of intense policing. But at a cost in other cities.

I doubt that further (non-football) sporting events will be cancelled. So that effectively ends this post as a rugby issue (unless the contagion spreads to Cardiff).

The problems of disaffected youth remain. But that's a whole other issue.

You can understand the football being called off, I mean England v Holland two of the biggest thug rivals in Europe, policing of this game would be an impossibility in the current situation.

When has Union been a place for violence? In reality there could be a token police presence at the MS with more security staff.

Let the thugs win and it would be a terrrible situation.

Let sport win the battle, put the troops out and crush this before it gets out of hand. This is not a political issue it is just plain criminality.

Troops in or get the parents to control their kids.

If England are losing at half time its an option worth considering

welshjohn369 wrote:Let sport win the battle, put the troops out and crush this before it gets out of hand.

Any Irish posters got an opinion on that? Works right?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:Let sport win the battle, put the troops out and crush this before it gets out of hand.

Any Irish posters got an opinion on that? Works right?

Read my post and then try again.

This is nothing like NI. it is NOT driven by politics but sheer thuggery by idiot chavs.

I guess you think 20 or so Left wing Social workers would be the option....

welshjohn369 wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:Let sport win the battle, put the troops out and crush this before it gets out of hand.

Any Irish posters got an opinion on that? Works right?

Read my post and then try again.

This is nothing like NI. it is NOT driven by politics but sheer thuggery by idiot chavs.

I guess you think 20 or so Left wing Social workers would be the option....

No but I dont think shooting children and fundamentaly undernmmining the constitution of the country is either.

Constitution? really!!

It's OK for these children to burn people out of their homes, destroy property and make people unemployed. Terrorise other kids and adults!!

PREVENT SPORT FROM BEING PLAYED!!

Troops in it gives a message.

No I understand you want the social work options and their trendy ways. Few scatter cusions and some real chat yea dude

If this nonsense goes on, I'm going to lock my own post.

This debate is about the threat of the riots on the WvE game. Either keep it rugby-based or lose the thread.

How can you dsicuss a game going ahead if you can not discuss the reson why you bring it up!!

Maybe they should have some troops in the MS

Portnoy you have to deal with the problem which are the rioters. It's relevant to the rugby because the match might be cancelled.

The little monsters should be tasered then blasted with watercannons. Or maybe the other way round?

Not sure what should be done with them when they are captured. Maybe alternative punishments? Some could be stuck into stocks and left to the mercy of the general public. Some could be put in the Tower of London dungeons for an indefinite period. Others could be put in cages hanging precariously above the Thames.

If they misbehave the rack and iron maiden can be rolled out until they comply. Tongue in cheek of course but genuinely feel the taser should be used more.

Peter seabiscuit they are feral. How do you deal with something feral normally?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:Let sport win the battle, put the troops out and crush this before it gets out of hand.

Any Irish posters got an opinion on that? Works right?

Read my post and then try again.

This is nothing like NI. it is NOT driven by politics but sheer thuggery by idiot chavs.

I guess you think 20 or so Left wing Social workers would be the option....

No but I dont think shooting children and fundamentaly undernmmining the constitution of the country is either.

Erm... How would the police using the necessary and proportionate force to quell lawlessness from a small minority, who are not following any constitutional right to protest but are openly breaking the law, disturbing the peace and in some cases endangering lives, by using techniques for which legitimate legislation already exists "undermmining [sic] the constitution" ?

beshocked wrote:
Portnoy you have to deal with the problem which are the rioters. It's relevant to the rugby because the match might be cancelled.

The little monsters should be tasered then blasted with watercannons. Or maybe the other way round?

Not sure what should be done with them when they are captured. Maybe alternative punishments? Some could be stuck into stocks and left to the mercy of the general public. Some could be put in the Tower of London dungeons for an indefinite period. Others could be put in cages hanging precariously above the Thames.

If they misbehave the rack and iron maiden can be rolled out until they comply. Tongue in cheek of course but genuinely feel the taser should be used more.

Peter seabiscuit they are feral. How do you deal with something feral normally?

The reason why I want to keep the post open is to keep a hanging brief on the possibility if the MS game under threat.

But we've had the shoot @ sight thread and the blood-curdling views.

Just keep it calm and rational.

Portnoy wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Portnoy you have to deal with the problem which are the rioters. It's relevant to the rugby because the match might be cancelled.

The little monsters should be tasered then blasted with watercannons. Or maybe the other way round?

Not sure what should be done with them when they are captured. Maybe alternative punishments? Some could be stuck into stocks and left to the mercy of the general public. Some could be put in the Tower of London dungeons for an indefinite period. Others could be put in cages hanging precariously above the Thames.

If they misbehave the rack and iron maiden can be rolled out until they comply. Tongue in cheek of course but genuinely feel the taser should be used more.

Peter seabiscuit they are feral. How do you deal with something feral normally?

The reason why I want to keep the post open is to keep a hanging brief on the possibility if the MS game under threat.

But we've had the shoot @ sight thread and the blood-curdling views.

Just keep it calm and rational.

Shoot on sight / blood curdling!!

Well the views I have been witnessing here in NZ are hardly made for the Disney Channel mate.

11 year old kids involved. Hey just hang around until their parents start joining in or you yourself get burnt out of your home.

Me, well I am happy 12,000 miles away in my warm house, not so happy about Northland getting a whipping from Wellington.

Perhaps you can give us your point of view since all you have done so far is pose the question

I understand that Scottish police are now being drafted in to bolster north and midlands English police forces.

My question is this: Will this be a sustainable solution with 20% cuts being imposed.

I was in Belfast in 1974. The whole city centre was fenced in with body searches on entry supplemented by the same on entry to the big stores.

Is that the way it's going to be?

Sure a hell a Syrian style of crowd control ain't going to work...

Do people not think that if we "shoot the little F*&*^rs" or start tasering and water cannoning them that this might make large portions of the population angry? The whole thing was sparked by the police shooting someone, will shooting more people make it better?

Or maybe the fact that the police presence prevented more big riots in London last night should tell us that that might be the solution? In a week or so this will have calmed down a lot and then we can look at long term solutions to the problems that may have fed this, whatever they may be. Until then, why don't we save the shooting civilians (even law breaking ones) for other countries to do to their populace, not do it to our people (thugs though they may be).

welshjohn369 wrote:
Perhaps you can give us your point of view since all you have done so far is pose the question

Perhaps you have not read my posts. Like suspending mobile closed social networks.

Mind you, I don't think that would have worked in Manchester last night as the 'rioters' were feral, unorganised children having a go at stuff for nowt - unlike the nights in London where there appeared to be more organisation from much more tech-literate adults. And the multiplicity of potential retail centres in the capital.

Portnoy wrote:I understand that Scottish police are now being drafted in to bolster north and midlands English police forces.

My question is this: Will this be a sustainable solution with 20% cuts being imposed.

I was in Belfast in 1974. The whole city centre was fenced in with body searches on entry supplemented by the same on entry to the big stores.

Is that the way it's going to be?

Sure a hell a Syrian style of crowd control ain't going to work...

I also had the unfortunate experience of being in Northern Ireland in the 70's mostly Derry City. As I have explained it is a completely different situation.

What should happen? Should they be allowed to riot? If there are not enough Police then what do you do, allow anarchy to occur?

Troops and police come out, curfew is put in place, water cannons are used with a stain that does not come off the skin for a few weeks. Order restored. Severe methods for severe problems.

Why should I be deproved of my rugby and Wales (and England's) preparations for the World cup? I pay a fair price for SKY TV here in NZ and I want to watch Wales play rugby, not scum robbing injured kids and burning homes.

screamingaddabs wrote:Do people not think that if we "shoot the little F*&*^rs" or start tasering and water cannoning them that this might make large portions of the population angry? The whole thing was sparked by the police shooting someone, will shooting more people make it better?

Or maybe the fact that the police presence prevented more big riots in London last night should tell us that that might be the solution? In a week or so this will have calmed down a lot and then we can look at long term solutions to the problems that may have fed this, whatever they may be. Until then, why don't we save the shooting civilians (even law breaking ones) for other countries to do to their populace, not do it to our people (thugs though they may be).

Sure send in the Social Workers, they always win dont they

I think after last night the riots have shown that they can spread, if they can spread as far as Liverpool they can spread as far as Cardiff (I know a different demographic and all but as Portnoy pointed out it isn't hard to find 200 absolute thugs in a city of 250,000 people).

I think the match is in danger of being cancelled if the riots show any signs what so ever of spreading to Cardiff.

I do think water cannons should be used, I amn't so hot on rubber bullets or full blown military law. Curfew seems to be a good option too. Just get it done.

I found this article very telling in terms of the English decision whether to bring in other measures or not, main point, in most other countries these measures would already be in place, I suggest giving it a read

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14459127

Also would like to point out there are more than just children rioting.

welshjohn369, let me ask: do you want to see the rioting and looting stop, or do you want to see people shot?

Portnoy wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:
Perhaps you can give us your point of view since all you have done so far is pose the question

Perhaps you have not read my posts. Like suspending mobile closed social networks.

Mind you, I don't think that would have worked in Manchester last night as the 'rioters' were feral, unorganised children having - unlike the nights in London where there appeared to be more organisation from much more tech-literate adults.

Oh well done, that's the way, divide the thugs into "Intelligent" groups based on a North / South divide, diplomatyic to the core

welshjohn369 wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:Do people not think that if we "shoot the little F*&*^rs" or start tasering and water cannoning them that this might make large portions of the population angry? The whole thing was sparked by the police shooting someone, will shooting more people make it better?

Or maybe the fact that the police presence prevented more big riots in London last night should tell us that that might be the solution? In a week or so this will have calmed down a lot and then we can look at long term solutions to the problems that may have fed this, whatever they may be. Until then, why don't we save the shooting civilians (even law breaking ones) for other countries to do to their populace, not do it to our people (thugs though they may be).

Sure send in the Social Workers, they always win dont they

Sorry, where did I mention social workers. I said that the riot police they deployed in London worked. Are riot police the same as social workers?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:welshjohn369, let me ask: do you want to see the rioting and looting stop, or do you want to see people shot?

I would prefer the guilty to be shot if it saves an innocent person from being killed

You haven't answered my question. The fact is that this can be stopped without the police firing on anyone.

And I'd prefer not to see an innocent person shot because someone thought they were guilty or because one of the guilty started shooting back.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:You haven't answered my question. The fact is that this can be stopped without the police firing on anyone.

I think I answered your question 100% pal.

200,000,000 quids worth of damage estimated so far, how many unemployed? How many homeless with their property destroyed? Yeah as I say I am in NZ I am happy, feel free to run wild in your UK and your solutions. Good Luck

screamingaddabs wrote:And I'd prefer not to see an innocent person shot because someone thought they were guilty or because one of the guilty started shooting back.

Until one of your family is shot I imagine

Why would my family be shot? No one is shooting! You're the one who is on about shooting.

screamingaddabs wrote:Do people not think that if we "shoot the little F*&*^rs" or start tasering and water cannoning them that this might make large portions of the population angry? The whole thing was sparked by the police shooting someone, will shooting more people make it better?

Or maybe the fact that the police presence prevented more big riots in London last night should tell us that that might be the solution? In a week or so this will have calmed down a lot and then we can look at long term solutions to the problems that may have fed this, whatever they may be. Until then, why don't we save the shooting civilians (even law breaking ones) for other countries to do to their populace, not do it to our people (thugs though they may be).

Screamingaddabs These little monsters have not nothing to do with the police shooting an alleged gangster. They are using it as an excuse to cause mayhem. You don't think large portions of the population are angry with these little F*&*^rs for destroying honest and hardworking citizens livelihoods?

How do you think we should deal with these scum of the earth? Just let it happen? These scum need to be shown they can't just trod on hardworking and upstanding citizens with no punishment. There needs to be a clamp down.

beshocked, of course something needs to be done - but shooting them isn't the answer.

I agree there needs to be a clamp down, but people on here are suggesting shooting them. That is a big step further than a clamp down. There should be more police on the street as was shown to work in London last night.

I don't think they should be allowed to do what they like with no repercussions and I am fully aware that they have no link in motive to the guy being shot. What I said was that the guy being shot was the SPARK for this.

screamingaddabs wrote:Do people not think that if we "shoot the little F*&*^rs" or start tasering and water cannoning them that this might make large portions of the population angry? The whole thing was sparked by the police shooting someone, will shooting more people make it better?

Or maybe the fact that the police presence prevented more big riots in London last night should tell us that that might be the solution? In a week or so this will have calmed down a lot and then we can look at long term solutions to the problems that may have fed this, whatever they may be. Until then, why don't we save the shooting civilians (even law breaking ones) for other countries to do to their populace, not do it to our people (thugs though they may be).

You sure you did not mention shooting. You even blame the police for this filth! Pity it's always the Police ain't it?? Never the poor bloody criminals.

luckless pedestrian do you see tasering as shooting? Technically it is but it's non lethal. I see it as necessary as you can taser the ringleaders.

I think the police need to have a deterrant. They should have some power. A taser gun would allow police to stun the rioters and round them up.

Welshjohn, please highlight where I have mentioned shooting that could in any way cause my family to be shot?

I have mentioned shooting in two contexts. One being the shooting of Mr Duggan and the other being about the fact that there is no shooting happening at the moment.

I haven't blamed the police, I have stated on more than one occasion that I think that there should be more police.

I mentioned that the riots were sparked by the shooting of mr Duggan. I have not said whether I thought this was a right or wrong thing, nor have I blamed the police.

I have not said that the riots are about the shooting of mr Duggan and I do not believe they are about this. It was the spark that started it, nothing more.