Have Wales and Ireland peaked too soon? also is MJ a rugby God?

Hello 606v2 it's been a while.

Have Wales (GS 2008) and Ireland (GS 2009) peaked too soon?

Once again England look like they've come good at the right time, 6 Nations champions going into a world cup, NZ looking like a creaking gate once again and SA well off the pace and France, well doing what the French do best being French.

My bet will be an Eng v Aus final.

Is MJ a genius, pundits and fans alike have mocked him for his selections but as Aus showed against the ALL Blacks sometimes you have to front up and be aggressive to get the result.

I just have a funny feeling that 2011 could be the year for the Webb Ellis cup to come back home to Blighty.

Once again England look like they've come good at the right time - Really.

They beat a poor Ireland side and should have beaten us twice not just the once.

I would hardly say we have peaked. We were beaten at Twickenham and it could have been moore, won at home but again England should have been out of sight by half time.

Against Argentina we were very poor for 30 minutes, so whilst confience will be high for us and England and a couple of wins I wouldn't say nayone can go in there over confident.

I'd be worried if Ireland have peaked their awful at the moment.
While Wales are only playing for 10-20 minutes each game.

England have a good draw, and are looking the strongest of the home nations. However the vagaries of the draw mean that they're unlikely to meet Australia in the final - one of the 2 teams would have to finish second in their pool for that to happen. If both teams win their pool, or both teams finish 2nd then they'll be on the same side of the draw.

England Wales and Ireland are playing poor quality rugby at the moment the weaknesses overshadow the strengths.
The only side that looks like they have any form is Australia.

And we all know how reliable pre-world cup form is as an indicator of success...

NZ have decent form,sure their first string lost to OZ but if it wasn't for a faithful TMO decision then who knows if OZ would have won.

France are going to win the World Cup, just you wait and see.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:France are going to in the World Cup, just you wait and see.

You left implode out - it goes between to and in

I think NZ will have learned valuable lessons from the losses to SA and Australia...

...and have a local TMO lined up for all RWC games in case the scheduled TMO is accidentally tied up in a linen cupboard and injected with heavy sedatives prior to kick off.

RubyGuby wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:France are going to in the World Cup, just you wait and see.

You left implode out - it goes between to and in

Well played!

Another year would have been much better for England. More time to get Lawes-Attwood some more caps and experience. See how Moody is holding up, Give Robshaw some game time.
Give more time to Haskell at 8, let Youngs see how gets on this season etc.

TMO'S dislike England too


Flashback to 2007 final:

Mark Cueto scores a try, have another look its a lump of turf that touches the line not his foot, it's just a funny camera angle.

I don't think any nations peaked to soon. Some are more confident than others travelling to NZ. It's between the tri nations tho. The rugby's on a different level to ours.
MJ was a rugby god as a player. All depends how he does with Eng from now on.

The only time you know for certain your team has peaked is when they beat everyone in front of them.

Until then they are still looking to peak.

Kiwireddevil wrote:England have a good draw, and are looking the strongest of the home nations.

I AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!! not a week ago england fans were still feeling sore from losing to wales in a match frankly any top 10 team should have won with that amount of possession. now they beat a poor ireland england are suddenly the best team in the NH???

and hersh MJ is a complete fool in all honesty, i mean i am sorry why is tindall still there what does he add, and sorry but moody is past it and injury prone- ashton is overrated and cueto is about 100 and hasnt scored a try for about 50 of those years...

NZ lost two matches wow, this will make them more dangerous at the fact they lost. and never under estimate the french, when you think they have completely self imploded they will come out and wow the world, wouldnt be surprised to see england not make it past the quarters.

dont under estimate S.A either- may not be flashy but they can grind teams down.

Welshy, England have a better lineout and a better scrum than Wales which means they're more likely to control games, as they did in both matches. They also have a ten who can kick goals. They didn't capitalise on the possession they had in Cardiff so they tweaked their half backs and midfield and it worked.

They're not brilliant, but they're well set for knockout rugby.

Tindall looked worldclass at the weekend, lovely little kick for Armitage to score in the corner, did you miss that one?
Sounds to me like you're jealous of the talent that England currently have on offer.
And England are the best team in the NH, 6 nations champions don't you know.

I'm with Hersh actually. I thought Tindall had a cracking game against Ireland and I'd say England are certainly the strongest of the home nations right now. France looked very powerful in the warm ups too though and have phenomenal depth.

Wales look to be in good shape but Ireland are in a mini crisis right now and don't have much time to sort themselves out.

I'd say the IRB rankings are a fair reflection after the warm ups.

Tindall may have had a good game but like Bennett for us how long as it been since before that.

Englands strength up front will always make them a threat and mean they are in with a shout of winning games but they are still lacking something in the centre.

Is Tuilagi the answer, I suppose we will have to wait and see, out of the NH Teams then yes they have the easier looking draw and should win their group.

As for saying Ashton is over rated is utter cr*p, he maybe be annoying to opposing fans (which he is) but his support play and angles of running is up there with the best. If he had been playing in Cardiff then he would have finished some of those hunderd or so chances they had.

With the exception of Ireland (maybe) I think all the NH teams will be going south in a confident mood but not over confident.

welshy824 wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:England have a good draw, and are looking the strongest of the home nations.

I AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!! not a week ago england fans were still feeling sore from losing to wales in a match frankly any top 10 team should have won with that amount of possession. now they beat a poor ireland england are suddenly the best team in the NH???

What do you mean "suddenly"? England dominated the 6 nations, where the only NH team that beat them was Ireland. The ghosts of Dublin were finally dealt with on Saturday. The only thing that has happened "suddenly" is Ireland being described as "poor", just because England beat them.

Something else that has happened suddenly is George North being hyped up beyond belief, despite these same people saying that Ashton is apparently overrated . North isn't even the best winger in his team.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Welshy, England have a better lineout and a better scrum than Wales which means they're more likely to control games, as they did in both matches. They also have a ten who can kick goals. They didn't capitalise on the possession they had in Cardiff so they tweaked their half backs and midfield and it worked.

They're not brilliant, but they're well set for knockout rugby.

agree about the lineout but you have to remember wales had no adam jones for those matches and i know he is only one man but hell does he sure up the scrum.

no hersh i am not jealous at all, wales have 3 good stand offs with Hook, SJ and the rising Priestland, have two quality centres, and excellent wingers (fullback i am a bit worried about)
and i didnt see tindall play no as i was watching the RL challenge cup so i missed the match- but i am just coparing to his last few matches

I voted yes. However I think that Ireland have peaked too early, and Wales have yet to peak, but it will be post RWC.

England did not dominate Wales, Scotland and certainly Ireland in the 6 Nations which perhaps is what the poster is trying to say. They also didn't "dominate" SA on tour here. If one win in Ireland has laid all your ghosts then good luck. From a welsh perspective we were rubbish in Twickenham and lost by 4, without a front row in Cardiff we won by 10 - We were also decidely average against Argentina but won with something to spare - How about when we have our forward set piece back? Our line out is shoite but apart from that we are in a reasonable position and realistic. One win and you guys are off again - Good luck against Argentina as it will definately be a reality check for you.

I agree I think 1/2p and Williams are still ahead of North in terms of talent, most wingers who can catch a ball would have scored most of Norths tries for Wales, even Adam (porkpie) Jones could have scored half of them if he was on the wing.

You missed Tindalls world class performance Welshy, he was untouchable, amazing what married life does for you and the fact that he had two class players next to him.

Johnson is a rugby god, but not in coaching.

Ireland peaked in 2009 & are on the verge of being overtaken by Scotland.

Wales are still improving especially in defence. Shows that sticking with the same coach eventually pays dividends.

Gotta be such a deflated feeling losing out on a grandslam.

England 8 and a half years since a slam
Ireland 2 years
Wales 3 years (but won 2)

England best a shocking Ireland team, big deal.

Why?

all that matters is winning the championship!

Show me the last time a team in the Jeff or ML won every game.

TheGreyGhost wrote:I think NZ will have learned valuable lessons from the losses to SA and Australia...

...and have a local TMO lined up for all RWC games in case the scheduled TMO is accidentally tied up in a linen cupboard and injected with heavy sedatives prior to kick off.

You mean how to lose 2 games on the trot?

LOL how many matches in a league season?

How many in the 6N? FIVE

Ain't hard winning 5 in a row. You're admitting England can't so goodbye world cup.

At the moment no team looks like winning all their games.

Thats why England have a great shout, we love KO rugby, MJ has picked a squad of players that have guts to dig in and grind out a win away from home, which once again England can do (as can France) unlike most of the other NH teams.

Tindall had a decent game against Ireland's weakest centre combination in a generation .

World class ??? - you have to be joking !

geoff998rugby wrote:Ireland's weakest centre combination in a generation

Earls & D'Arcy both British Lions and both rated higher than Tindall and Manu before the game.

Allan Bateman is still better than Tindall (now).

Scotland to beat England.

Scotland could beat England, and if France beat NZ then I'll be cheering on the Jocks, France don't play well twice on the trot.

HERSH wrote:Scotland could beat England, and if France beat NZ then I'll be cheering on the Jocks, France don't play well twice on the trot.

Neither do England

lol - another thread degrading into a mud slinging match between two countries - throwing the favourite pharse, if we had, if not injured, he is world class as only a couple of internations

Wow - can no-one ever be slightly objective

Well as a Scotsman I will try to be on the three teams mentioned -(for Scotland I am crossing fingers, we can get out of our group, but will be a toughie, as I think England slightly ahead of us and us slightly ahead of Argentina, but in a world cup that can change)

Wales - think they are in a reasonable position, although still tend to get caught up in their own hype. They have a physical tough group where if they allow themselves to get carried away with throwing the ball around, may come unstuck. Think they will lose to SA but come second in the group.


Ireland - not actually seeing as much gloom as others on performance, but injuries may be a concern. They competed well in lots of areas, scrum stronger than I thought, got a fair amount of ball. Looked a little toothless is defence, but could improve - will get out of their group, as I think they are still a good side

England - powerful pack, who decided to work at the breakdown as well, and gave them some good quick ball. Backs looked more dangerous than unsual, still not champagne, but may become very good. Big questions is will MJ go with those two or revert to Hape and Tindel. If he does, then England will get out of the group but that is about it.


Order of Northen H Teams by performance over warm up games (and ability to win knock out matches)

England
France
Wales / Scotland
Ireland

But all in all, not a huge gulf between them - so a 5% up or down on performace could change it

welshy824 wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:England have a good draw, and are looking the strongest of the home nations.

I AM CONFUSED NOW!!!!!!!!! not a week ago england fans were still feeling sore from losing to wales in a match frankly any top 10 team should have won with that amount of possession. now they beat a poor ireland england are suddenly the best team in the NH???

and hersh MJ is a complete fool in all honesty, i mean i am sorry why is tindall still there what does he add, and sorry but moody is past it and injury prone- ashton is overrated and cueto is about 100 and hasnt scored a try for about 50 of those years...

NZ lost two matches wow, this will make them more dangerous at the fact they lost. and never under estimate the french, when you think they have completely self imploded they will come out and wow the world, wouldnt be surprised to see england not make it past the quarters.

dont under estimate S.A either- may not be flashy but they can grind teams down.

on the otherside of the argument, why are England suddenly rubbish after one poor showing against Wales? Who has the best win/loss ratio over the last 10 or so games (i'm guessing England). So to say there the best team in the NH isnt as ridiculous as you make it sound.

nathan wrote:on the otherside of the argument, why are England suddenly rubbish after one poor showing against Wales? Who has the best win/loss ratio over the last 10 or so games (i'm guessing England). So to say there the best team in the NH isnt as ridiculous as you make it sound.

04 Feb 2011 Wales 19 - 26 England
06 Feb 2010 England 30 - 17 Wales
14 Feb 2009 Wales 23 - 15 England
02 Feb 2008 England 19 - 26 Wales
04 Aug 2007 England 62 - 5 Wales
17 Mar 2007 Wales 27 - 18 England
04 Feb 2006 England 47 - 13 Wales
05 Feb 2005 Wales 11 - 9 England

It's 4 wins each, over the last 8 games.

I hope that Wales havent peaked coz if they have I missed it!We are still on an upward curve which will occur between WC's sadly.
Ireland are in decline but they have built for the future by all accounts.

AlynDavies wrote:

nathan wrote:on the otherside of the argument, why are England suddenly rubbish after one poor showing against Wales? Who has the best win/loss ratio over the last 10 or so games (i'm guessing England). So to say there the best team in the NH isnt as ridiculous as you make it sound.

04 Feb 2011 Wales 19 - 26 England
06 Feb 2010 England 30 - 17 Wales
14 Feb 2009 Wales 23 - 15 England
02 Feb 2008 England 19 - 26 Wales
04 Aug 2007 England 62 - 5 Wales
17 Mar 2007 Wales 27 - 18 England
04 Feb 2006 England 47 - 13 Wales
05 Feb 2005 Wales 11 - 9 England

It's 4 wins each, over the last 8 games.

That wasn't the question

munkian wrote:

HERSH wrote:Scotland could beat England, and if France beat NZ then I'll be cheering on the Jocks, France don't play well twice on the trot.

Neither do England

We did alright in 2007 when we beat Australia then France. Remember. We got to the final. Again

last 7 matches england and wales have won 5 each. the thing i find irritating is that welsh people are accused of being over optimistic and cocky on welsh teams perspectives yet when england win against ireland their players are world class.

in response to george north probably we are overrating him but certainly no more than ashton i mean its not george norths tries but his setting up others for tries e.g AWJ try.

and in no disrepect to english fans but you constanly tell welsh fans stop talking about 08 well can english fans stop talking about 6n 2011 because although then england deserved to be crowned champions i believe they have taken a step backwards well actually i would simply say other teams have sussed out the inside flcik to supporting runner (ashton) who scores a try. also i know traditionally england are much better at WC and love KO comps but when the pressure came during the 6N (i know i am contradicting myself but let me continue) they fell apart although ireland played really well, and same happened to the half backs in the AP final with your half backs.

now i am not saying england wont progress further than wales or that wales will win the WC but i am trying to give a response to some comments and attempt to give an unbiased review (it will be biased as i am welsh but...)

oh and sorry if i have sent people to sleep =/

I think it was nice of Tuilagi to pre-celebrate his try, taking the heat of Ashton for doing the same thing. It's the least Manu could do after trying to punch his lights out in the Jeff semi-final.

welshy824 wrote:last 7 matches england and wales have won 5 each.

Taxi!

welshy824 wrote:last 7 matches england and wales have won 5 each. the thing i find irritating is that welsh people are accused of being over optimistic and cocky on welsh teams perspectives yet when england win against ireland their players are world class.

in response to george north probably we are overrating him but certainly no more than ashton i mean its not george norths tries but his setting up others for tries e.g AWJ try.

and in no disrepect to english fans but you constanly tell welsh fans stop talking about 08 well can english fans stop talking about 6n 2011 because although then england deserved to be crowned champions i believe they have taken a step backwards well actually i would simply say other teams have sussed out the inside flcik to supporting runner (ashton) who scores a try. also i know traditionally england are much better at WC and love KO comps but when the pressure came during the 6N (i know i am contradicting myself but let me continue) they fell apart although ireland played really well, and same happened to the half backs in the AP final with your half backs.

now i am not saying england wont progress further than wales or that wales will win the WC but i am trying to give a response to some comments and attempt to give an unbiased review (it will be biased as i am welsh but...)

oh and sorry if i have sent people to sleep =/

Hear hear...

Also, when was the last time Ashton scored a try for England? Wasnt it againt Italy in the 6Ns. If so, Cueto has scored more tries than him since

welshy824 wrote:last 7 matches england and wales have won 5 each. the thing i find irritating is that welsh people are accused of being over optimistic and cocky on welsh teams perspectives yet when england win against ireland their players are world class.

in response to george north probably we are overrating him but certainly no more than ashton i mean its not george norths tries but his setting up others for tries e.g AWJ try.

and in no disrepect to english fans but you constanly tell welsh fans stop talking about 08 well can english fans stop talking about 6n 2011 because although then england deserved to be crowned champions i believe they have taken a step backwards well actually i would simply say other teams have sussed out the inside flcik to supporting runner (ashton) who scores a try. also i know traditionally england are much better at WC and love KO comps but when the pressure came during the 6N (i know i am contradicting myself but let me continue) they fell apart although ireland played really well, and same happened to the half backs in the AP final with your half backs.

now i am not saying england wont progress further than wales or that wales will win the WC but i am trying to give a response to some comments and attempt to give an unbiased review (it will be biased as i am welsh but...)

oh and sorry if i have sent people to sleep =/

So basing your opinion on one game is bad because it's one game. But basing in on earlier games is bad because March was ages ago? Which is it? I think most English fans are more relieved that we managed to win in Dublin for the first time in 8 years for it's own merit rather than any impact it has on the WC.

PS I don't think I've ever told any Welsh fans to stop talking about 08. Perhaps you mean some specific English fans you know or maybe HERSH?

Tindall - at times he has looked poor and his passing can be atrocious but somehow he does make the backs look better - particularly in defense.

I would guess that England have won a lot more games with him there in the last few years than without him. England wont be the prettiest team at the RWC but they will be one of the hardest to beat.

Kiwireddevil wrote:England have a good draw, and are looking the strongest of the home nations. However the vagaries of the draw mean that they're unlikely to meet Australia in the final - one of the 2 teams would have to finish second in their pool for that to happen. If both teams win their pool, or both teams finish 2nd then they'll be on the same side of the draw.

Spoilsport! - how dare you ruin a good WUM with facts!

ML wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:England have a good draw, and are looking the strongest of the home nations. However the vagaries of the draw mean that they're unlikely to meet Australia in the final - one of the 2 teams would have to finish second in their pool for that to happen. If both teams win their pool, or both teams finish 2nd then they'll be on the same side of the draw.

Spoilsport! - how dare you ruin a good WUM with facts!

I've got to get my kicks somehow.

Any of Wales/Ireland/England/France have the capability to turn over the SH sides if they turn up and play well.

England are the only team to have done it when it matters.

France and England are still going to be the NH teams that people will want to avoid in the knockout stages.