Jeff supporters - are you worried about relegation?

With relegation to avoid as the first objective for all clubs and nothing to be taken for granted - it's a worry for all English (obviously some more than others) supporters isn't it ?

For me the Tigers looking sound for a good start in the Jeff.

For once they have sufficient depth in the squad to survive the onslaught of RWC calls and the inevitable return of knackered/injured players whose RWC experiences will no doubt impinge further into the domestic season way beyond their return to Welford Road.

How do you see the season panning out for your club?

Please can we keep this article sane and Jeff-oriented?

Are You Worried About Relegation?

As a Falcons fan - Yes.

But I'm always hopeful.

Mind you, it might be a bit boring if we are comfortable mid table as Taity thinks we'll be this season.

Relagation dogfights give a certain 'frisson' n'est pas?

I think there is a very good chance no Jeff side needs to be worried about relegation, as I feel it is likely one of the many sides who cannot be promoted will win the Championship. I really hope this isn't the case.

Trail Ape, I hope he's right for a great many reasons (Newcastle are my 2nd team after living there for 7 years!), however I'm not sure. I just don't see how Newcastle can pull themselves up to consistently being mid table, let alone challenging for the top. It seems less a case of if they get relegated but when (next season, the one after etc). I hope I'm wrong but they have small crowds (and 1 less since I moved away), no big financial backing and everyone takes their good players. How can they sort that out do you think?

HKC- Sadly I think you might be right, quite how the standards of entry can be far higher than the grounds already in the league I dont understand.

Hopefully the Truro stadium will be built to give the Pirates a chance of going up, thats real rugby country.

Having said all that, Glaws might be looking over their shoulders a bit, you never know...!

Bathman, we may look over our shoulder, but only to see how far back you are!!

Totally agree though, it would be great to see the Pirates come up, although they have lost a few key players over the summer.

Well maybe if youve played more games than us!

Seriously though, I think the real scrap at the bottom will between Newcastle, Worcester and Sale and Exeter. Having said that Wasps werent exactly looking great at the end of last season so maybe they will be nearer to the championship than the title too.

You do wonder though how a team without a 'sugardaddy' type backer and with relatively small crowds is going to manage to climb the ladder and be competitive. With the changes to the salary cap coming in next year its hard to see how its going to get any easier, I'm not sure its good for the league to be honest.

I'm a Leeds Carnegie supporter, been there and back and there again and have to accept that it's just the way it is. Professional sport is all about the money and that affects everything. For clubs in the Jeff it means the ability to recruit and retain quality or not, for the Championship sides it's about being able to meet the criteria even if they are good enough. Relegation keeps the competition honest with real consequences for failing but there does need to be some mechanism to achieve a bit more fairness in the process. Clubs like Newcastle and Leeds lose a lot of good youngsters to the richer clubs whilst not being able to afford to recruit quality players. That said, I think there could be a system that financially rewards clubs for fielding home produced talent and maybe makes it possible for them to come up with more financially attractive packages for their young players.

I am not convinced that the clubs who suffer the most with talent poaching don't have themselves to blame for a lot of it. If the club does not reward them well enough, not just in straight financial terms, then they will go.

I also believe more could be done to ease the criteria for promotion teams so that they can be promoted and given time to develop their facilities to acceptable standards. If it was possible to do this there might even be a case for 2 demotions and promotions a season and that would make for more variety in the Jeff sides. One things for sure, I don't want to see RL style franchises or unfair ring fencing, that would be a disaster.

Anyways, good luck to your respective teams. Here's hoping for some great rugby in the new season.

Like my fellow Newcastle supporters I am always worried about the spectre of relegation. I have watched them hover so long that I have almost become resigned to the fact that our luck will eventually run out.

Many of my friends have tried to console me by pointing to Northampton’s successful return to the Premiership. Please don’t! It just wouldn’t work that way for us. If we went down all our best players would be stripped away by the Midlands and London clubs. We’d then spend a season in the championship blooding talent and developing players to stand us in good stead should we return. Only for those new players to be tempted elsewhere too.

Exeter are a great club and a great advertisement for promotion/ relegation. However, I do wonder what the point of it all is if 99% of the clubs in the championship aren't eligible for promotion. I think Leeds should be promoted to a 13 team Premiership. The Premiership should then be closed for three years whilst investment is encouraged in the Championship clubs.

No as a saints fan, I'd not worried.
We've made some very good signings. Now we have depth at prop, Ryan Lamb COULD Be a great flyhalf for us. Some more depth on the wings and alternative centre options.
I really think we could win the prem this year.

aitchw wrote:I'm a Leeds Carnegie supporter... Relegation keeps the competition honest with real consequences for failing but there does need to be some mechanism to achieve a bit more fairness in the process. Clubs like Newcastle and Leeds lose a lot of good youngsters to the richer clubs whilst not being able to afford to recruit quality players. That said, I think there could be a system that financially rewards clubs for fielding home produced talent and maybe makes it possible for them to come up with more financially attractive packages for their young players.

I am not convinced that the clubs who suffer the most with talent poaching don't have themselves to blame for a lot of it. If the club does not reward them well enough, not just in straight financial terms, then they will go.

I also believe more could be done to ease the criteria for promotion teams so that they can be promoted and given time to develop their facilities to acceptable standards. If it was possible to do this there might even be a case for 2 demotions and promotions a season and that would make for more variety in the Jeff sides. One things for sure, I don't want to see RL style franchises or unfair ring fencing, that would be a disaster.

Anyways, good luck to your respective teams. Here's hoping for some great rugby in the new season.

I am always supportive of the league structure and agree that clubs like mine 'poaching' (not of course a term I like to use being a fan of a club at the upper end of the food-chain) the best players from the bottom end.

I'd like to see a lot more compensation for transfers of talent, but then would that just reinforce a top thirteen structure (12 Jeff plus one temporary Championship side)?

Only by luck was I born in Leicester. I could have (and nearly was) been born a Coventarian and then I'd have a real reason to grumble about the lottery of the shake-down at the time of professionalism.

flankertye wrote:No as a saints fan, I'd not worried.
We've made some very good signings. Now we have depth at prop, Ryan Lamb COULD Be a great flyhalf for us. Some more depth on the wings and alternative centre options.
I really think we could win the prem this year.

Well as the best Jeff side last year - being smacked down at the last minute by the lack of depth after having to rebuild after the aforementioned relegation problem - I'd be hopeful if I were a Saintsman.

But really this RWC year is going to take its toll on those clubs that have significant exposure to the RWC.

Kind words about Leeds, Cumbrian, and thanks for that but don't you think there must be something not right at clubs like Leeds and Newcastle with regard to player retention and that more could be done for less rich clubs to encourage development and retention of young players? I wasn't happy with Back and Key's recruitment or coaching at the end of their first year back in the Jeff and I have serious doubts about Tait's ability at top level

I don't think that removing hope of promotion for Championship clubs for 3 years would be good for them.

This year is going to be massive for Exeter and I really hope they do well enough to retain their place.

Hope Exeter do well, they're a good little side. The opening match of the season against Tigers was very unexpected!
Where did that finish last year? 8-9th wasn't it?

Exeter. I want them to do well.

But will there be a second season syndrome?

They have loads of youngsters making their mark at the age levels and it would be a pity if they got relegated and got cleaned out by the big boys.

aitchw wrote:Kind words about Leeds, Cumbrian, and thanks for that but don't you think there must be something not right at clubs like Leeds and Newcastle with regard to player retention and that more could be done for less rich clubs to encourage development and retention of young players? I wasn't happy with Back and Key's recruitment or coaching at the end of their first year back in the Jeff and I have serious doubts about Tait's ability at top level

I don't think that removing hope of promotion for Championship clubs for 3 years would be good for them.

This year is going to be massive for Exeter and I really hope they do well enough to retain their place.

I believe the only way for the poorer clubs to hold onto their talent is for the clubs themselves to grow and become attractive prospects to play for. They need to prove that they are vibrant and have ambition. It sounds so simple, yet is ultimately a very difficult thing to achieve. Especially when a club's young player has watched his compatriots move onto t'bright lights. As you've pointed out elsewhere, I think the management/ coaching staff help to contribute to growing an an attractive club and they seem vital

I would argue that most Championship clubs don't really have any hope of promotion as it stands anyway. It almost seems to me that all the championship offers is a year of purgatory for one of the clubs unfortunate enough to be at the bottom of the Premiership.

As a London Irish fan the threat of relegation does worry me. On our day we can compete with the best sides in Europe, as we have shown with results in individual Heineken Cup matches the past few years.

The problem for us is we can also be dire if we lose 1 or 2 key players, and depth is a real issue for us. A bad start to the season could see us in the relegation dogfight, and in recent times we do not have the experience of being there that the other teams around I us might have and that could be crucial.


The main worry is the fact that were we to be relegated, despite playing in one of the most modern grounds in the Premiership with excellent facilities, we would be denied promotion back up due to not owning the ground ourselves.

The criteria is absolutely ridiculous and unless it is address in the next few years will sound the death knell in terms of top flight ambition for a number of clubs.

Do you see ring-fencing as a decent alternative Morse?

Or even franchising the Jeff.

Or do you subscribe fully to the League system?

I love the league system Portnoy. Ring fencing or franchising are just not options for me, it goes against the whole ethos of the game in this country in my opinion.

At present we have 12 teams in the Premiership and 14 int eh Championship, of which only 2 meet he ground criteria to be promoted making it a bit farcical. The other issue is there is a massive gap between the top and bottom of the Championship.

Add to that a congested fixture list, and my solution would be this.

A 10 team Premiership and a 10 team Championship. In effect this would mean that both leagues would be stronger than they are now, as the Premiership would lose the two weakest teams who would be stronger than the other Championship teams. The Championship would then lose the 6 weakest teams into the pyramid below making it stronger.

I would cascade that down the leagues making the divisions smaller as presently the top and bottom of some divisions is a huge gulf in class.

I would have 1 up and 1 down between the Premiership and championship each year with a 3 season amnesty for the promoted side in terms of ground requirements in order for them to get up to scratch.

But hey, I'm a lowly plod, what do I know?!?!?

If you look at the start of last season Leeds were talking about HC qualification and playing a different brand of rugby to the one that saw them stay up the season before, which led to them having an awful start to the season. If you then look at Exeter for this season all they are talking about is consolidation and staying up. As a result, I fully believe they will show the same resilience and grit to stay up. The favourites for the drop have to be Worcester and Newcastle, however, I am expecting Irish to flirt with the bottom for a while.

HKC

We play Worcester and Newcastle at home in the first 6 weeks of the season. If we get off to a bad start, then those games are going to be crucial to us. I am worried to be honest, we have a really young side and they will need to step up early if we are going to remain a top six side.

Morse,

I agree with the 10 club limit in the Jeff. That would make the play-offs argument definitely logically unsustainable. But that's just one of my old bug-bears.

A 10-club Championship with a three year ground development programme sounds fine so long as the programme is realised year-on-year is fine. I'd also suggest that the promoted side has protection against relegation for one year on completion of 2/3 financial completion in the first twelve months of the 36.

Portnoy wrote:

flankertye wrote:No as a saints fan, I'd not worried.
We've made some very good signings. Now we have depth at prop, Ryan Lamb COULD Be a great flyhalf for us. Some more depth on the wings and alternative centre options.
I really think we could win the prem this year.

Well as the best Jeff side last year - being smacked down at the last minute by the lack of depth after having to rebuild after the aforementioned relegation problem - I'd be hopeful if I were a Saintsman.

But really this RWC year is going to take its toll on those clubs that have significant exposure to the RWC.

Portnoy I think that's a load of rubbish. How can Saints be the best AP side?

The RWC will only effect clubs who lack sufficient strength in depth. We will lose 8 players. Big deal.

Can Saints beat Saracens in the AP? Can Saints beat Leicester in a knockout match?

Beshocked,

Just because my subjective view differs from yours, it doesn't make it rubbish.

In my opinion the Saints played the best rugby in the Jeff last season but failed to finish the thing off because of a lack of depth to cover for all those weary bodies.

In my humble, subjective opinion.

Apologies Portnoy. Rubbish is too strong a word but I can't really understand how Saints can be called the best in the AP.

How do you define best? Most tries scored? No that was Leicester.

The team that tops the table? Leicester.

Most try bonus points - Leicester

Best defence? No that was Saracens. Best away and win/loss ratio - Saracens again.

Best home record? No that was Gloucester

Best head to head vs top 4 teams? Saracens yet again

Trophies? Saracens won the AP.

Saints were the best performing English side in the HC but that is not the AP.

You are making excuses for Saints. They are undoubtedly a good side but the best in any way in the AP? No

If they were the best surely they would beat the top 4 sides?

Still behind Saracens and Leicester certainly.

As a Bath fan I have no worries about relegation we're just to big to go down with the players that we have, Worcester, Newcastle, Pests and Exeter will be the bottom four this year.

I'd love it to be London Pests but I think Worcester will struggle.

Saints played some very good rugby,as we said. Towards the end of the season we just didn't have enough quality depth. Hence Mujati, Tiny, Lawes, Wilson, Dowson played so many games.

I think there was a time last year when Northampton were the best in the league. But they lacked the staying power (due to squad depth as Portnoy says) and faded. But thats why squad depth is so important over the long season, especially if you are competing in 2 competitions.

HERSH- so you dont think Sale will be down there in trouble?



With regards to championship sides, a few weeks ago I was at London Welsh (although admittedly in the summer it is Richmond Cricket Club). For those who havent been there its a nice old ground with temporary stands coming in during the rugby season, except for one permanent one.

My point being that to upgrade Old Deer Park (or indeed most championside grounds) to premiership standard would require a huge investment to upgrade the facilities and of course to bring in players who could keep them in the premiership to make the investment worthwhile.

With the new national academy system effectively tying the best younger players to the premiership clubs and Leeds, a newly promoted side is going to have less good junior players coming through as well as the reduced RFU funding to deal with.
It all makes it seem as if top tier of English rugby has been decided on, based on who happened to be in the top tier when professionalism started and the only way to break in is to have a sugar daddy with limitless money and patience. I dont know how to solve the problem though.

Flankertye not denying Saints played some very good rugby last year. You have a very good team.

They were top of the league for a little while but doesn't automatically make them the best.

I personally can't call Saints the best as they cannot beat my team in the AP. 5 losses in a row in the AP has that effect unfortunately. Most of those matches were close but results are results. 3 at FG too.

I do think you will notch up at least one win against us this time though. Surely you have to?

The relegation dogfight will likely be Worcester vs Newcastle though Wasps,Sale and Exeter could be dragged into the mix.

I am not worried about relegation. We would have to seriously implode for that to happen.

I think Sale will be ok 5th from bottom, I think they'll be playing their home games on a friday evening most of the time, opposing teams don't like this for whatever reason, so I can see them picking up points at home.

I fancy Glaws to have a tough year too, the lose of Tindall early on will hurt them.

LDCPete, I can understand your thoughts. I do feel it's going to be a transitional year for you and it is vital you remain injury free as I feel you're lacking in depth. In the long run blooding these youngsters will be hugely beneficial though.

HERSH - it might be a tough year, but fortunately we've got a guaranteed 5 points come 24th September to help kick start our season

Kick start your season?

A Saturn V rocket wouldn't be able to get Glaws going, losing Robinson is going to hurt you big time.

Although Robinson leaving does mean Burns is going to get some game time at 10 before his triumphant return home...

We will miss his game control, but not his place kicking. Anyway, we have a very talented youngster that came from our feeder club who will start at 10!

I can't believe Glaws still sign our rejects!

To be honest I still don't understand why Burns was allowed to leave, we should have hung onto him.

I suppose he cancelled out Glaws signing Voyce?!

Seriously though, Baths facilities prior to Farleigh House were famously rubbish and that apparently was a factor in Burns leaving. I'm sure some cash may have been involved too!

You've started signing our rejects now!

It was a major clanger to let Burns slip through your fingers, he is a precocious talent. I am expecting him to have a few poor games this season as that has to happen for him to learn the game management he needs

If I remember correctly that was one of his reasons for leaving, but if you're born in Bath then why would you want to play for Glaws?

It had to be the money!

Bathman, I was incredibly vocal about Voyce during his first season as I had never seen a top level professional be so poor and show so little interest.

Full credit to him, he knuckled down and turned out to be an excellent player for us last season.

HERSH wrote:If I remember correctly that was one of his reasons for leaving, but if you're born in Bath then why would you want to play for Glaws?

It had to be the money!

The answer is quite simple, Glaws are just better!

Why do you Gloucester and Bath fans not like each other?

beshocked wrote:Why do you Gloucester and Bath fans not like each other?

:died laughing:

beshocked, its not that we dont like each other, its just that Glaws fans are knuckle draggers who probably smell of manure whereas Barf fans are Range Rover driving champagne swiggers. Or something like that!

You going to the game on the 10th beshocked?

Bathman_in_London wrote: Glaws fans are knuckle draggers who probably smell of manure

That's one of the nicest compliments I've ever been paid!

Historically the competition was born out of a clash of styles and culture coupled with the locality. Glaws have always been seen as the working man's club, whereas Bath have been the toffs who flaunted the amatuer nature of the game!

As it happens I have a number of pals who are Bath supporters and the banter with them is great fun and I rather like the banter with the Bath fans here too.

HERSH do you want to have the same bet as last year?

Screaming

How can they sort that out do you think?

Unfortunately the Falcons will always struggle due to the fierce love that soccerball has in these here parts. Even if we were in the top half of the Jeff year in year out, I don't think we would consistently fill Kingston Park. If we cannot get the punters through the door buying the programmes, merchandise and beer, we are always going to be poor relations.

It's a bitter joke when certain fans from richer clubs rant on about the limitations of the wages cap - don't think Falcons come close to bothering it.

Bottom line though is money - we don't generate enough so we are always going to be struggling.


HOWEVER

I don't think people realise the change that is going on within the club, from the pragmatic Bates style to the more running rugby that Tait wants. He's got rid of a lot of the side that he's inherited, so lets see if it gels.

Might suprise a few folk that only know what the 'pundits' tell them.

HKC that says it all!

How do you think your pack are going to hold out this year? You have a very good young set of backs, but is the front 5 a little weaker than last year?

HKC I let you know after the weekend.

Bathman, it's probably too early to say. Dario Chistolini who has replaced PDJ looks a fearsome scrummager, but he needs to be fitter to offer more around the park. Jokes aside, we will miss Attwood. Whilst he wasn't a starter in his final season he offered great strength in depth. The main replacement Tom Savage looks one for the future, but maybe this season will be too soon. Our new hooker Cortese is injured so can't pass judgement. He didn't make it at Saints but that was 5 years ago and he has improved since then. Signing Nathan Charles on a short term loan is a bit of a coup.


Come on HERSH, man up!!

beshocked wrote:Why do you Gloucester and Bath fans not like each other?

Well, once upon-a-time, a long, long time ago, Bath were the greatest Club in English rugby. Year after year they sent their valiant young warriors forth into the fray that was known as the John Player Cup. Such was the power and prowess of the young Bath warriors that no-one (or at least very few) could stand in their way.

For many years Bath stood head and shoulders above the rest, but Gloucester being very jealous neighbours of Bath and coveting their success decided to put an end to the John Player Cup and with the help of their evil "sponsors" they invented the Pilkington Cup to put an end to Bath's superiority.

This did not work, and Bath yea did become very mighty indeed, smiting their gobby northern neighbours by an obscene amount of points in the battle of 1990 which was imortalised in the great poem "Busted Cherries" by Ivor Longshlong.

Gloucester could not bear the level of humbling dished out by the mighty Bath and began a plot that would make Guy Fawkes look like Mother Theresa. Gloucester knew that Bath had a "Good Thing", and they wanted it for themselves.

In the summer of 1992 the jealous ones sent out a raiding party lead by a notorious knuckle-dragger called Dodgy O'Shed, the sole purpose of the raid was to find the "Good Thing" and take it back into the Northern Wilderness where nothing good could come of it. Despite Dodgy O'Shed's lack of intelligence (rumour has it he was a neurone short of a synapse) he was in fact an incredibly spawny git and his raid was indeed blessed by some unseen and dark force.

For on the night of the raid the "Good Thing" was to have been guarded by Stuart "Liver-Lips" Barnes the "Out-Half of the Guard", Barnes however had Claret issues and had taken up a sordid affair with a flighty little Rioja of the Faustino family, an affair much frowned upon by the senior Order of the Bath as the affair resulted in an obvious case of the inflated humours manifested in the expansion of his already considerable girth. Barnes however was not to be deterred and in order to indulge himself in this incredibly selfish pursuit he left his young understudy Saint Michael - the patron saint of Catts - to guard the "Good Thing" and keep it precious for the Righteous Ones.

Saint Michael was of very tender years and in the wee small hours of the morning in the descending cool of the Inner Sanctum (locally known as The Rec), he decided to rest his head upon his snuggle blankey for a bit of comfort, but having recently being hired from a mercenary tribe of egg-chasers from the far off Southern Ocean, he quickly became overcome by the onset of the West Country cider-peepies and was soon snoring and dreaming of far off World Cup glories.

It was upon this scene that Dodgy O'Shed and his band of ne'er-do-wells most fortunately stumbled, they cast their covetous eyes upon the vast array of treasures stored in the Innner Sanctum and could scarcely believe such marvels existed for they were known as "trophies" and the Shedders had seen few of their kind for many a long year.

At the heart of these treaures was the "Good Thing" a thing belonging to the righteous ones.

Having no manners and even less respect for the true order of things the Shedders immediately set upon the "trophies" and the "Good Thing" with the kind of evil avarice that can only come from those who have been starved of success.

Such was the violence of the stampede to raid the "trophies" and the "Good Thing", that poor Saint Michael was verily run-over and nearly crushed in the process (him being engrossed in his West Country cider-peepies) to such an extent that it inflicted upon him a recurring nightmare that was only ended through the real-life aversion therapy of the "Jonah Lomu incident" of 1995.

Slavering from their protruding jaws and knuckling their Neanderthal foreheads at their success, the Shedders bore off the "trophies" and the "Good Thing" to their vile stinking midden in the Northern Wilderness where no good could come of them.

To be continued......?

PJHolybloke, I think you may have had one too many of Barnes' said Rioja