Should I be bothered by this?

OK so I've booked a day off work this coming Wednesday to play a midweek medal at my club.

The preliminary draw sheet is out and the format is 3 balls - and I've been drawn with not one, but two juniors.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not one of the crusty old duffer brigade who detests juniors and finds something to moan about with juniors. I'm very pleased and proud of the junior section at my club; the juniors are very well behaved, respectful and most of them play to a pretty high standard. I've played with juniors in comps before, though always just one in a group of 3 or 4. Our club rules say that juniors can play in adult comps as long as there is no equivalent junior comp on the same day, and as long as they are of a certain standard (18 h.c I think)

The two I've been drawn with are off 5 and 16 - so both lower than me, one considerably so, and a part of me is looking forward to watching the lower one particularly as I always enjoy watching low handicappers.

There is just a little something nagging at the back of my mind that I'm going to be the odd man out in this group and the social side will be somewhat lacking. At least my bar card will only be hit by a barrage of soft drinks afterwards!

The draw may well be revised before Wednesday, but if not, am I wrong to feel just a little unease about it?

You should probably be a little miffed as this was something the clique who organised comps at one of my old clubs used to arrange tee times. They would always group all the older low guys together and then put even the low juniors out with high handicap adults. Never as a junior playing of low single figures did I ever get to play with the better players.


You could look at it from the 5 handicappers point of view, the poor sod has been drawn with two duffers.

Don't think there is anything "arranged" about it, Mac - that's one of the things I like about my club - the draws always seem genuine - it's just coincidence that it's worked out this way.

Yes I suppose I could feel a little sorry for the 5 h.c though I knew that the low h.c guys don't mind playing with me as I never allow myself to hold them back, and I'm a pretty quick player even though I take more shots than them. I'm always very aware of trying not to hold back good players or disrupt their rhythm.

Maybe they'll talk about Tonka Toys and video games all the way round and I'll just get on with my own game

Just say how excited you are by MW3 coming out but graphics on Battlefield look better.

And that your top kill streak was 17 you will be fine lol

Awww gee thanks Nay .. I always wanted to be cool and "down with the kids"

Davie
Look at the two lads as club committee members in the year 2032, and then try and treat then like that.

You mean I should be treating committee members differently from any other member? Maybe that's where I've been going wrong!

I hope I'm still here in 2032

Comittee should all be treated as any other member no special passes in my book. As for the draw, if juniors are allowed to play thats great but i'd think they should have looked at your draw and made amends so 1 junior per group to give the kids a chance to play but maintain things for all

You seem to be thinking along the same lines as me, Mav

As I said I've no problems with the juniors and all said and done they are a bunch of good kids who should be encouraged.

I just think and hope the draw will be adjusted before Wednesday to split up two of only three junior entered for the comp

If its not adjusted I'll keep my reservations to myself and try to enjoy it. If they don't want to interact between shots and enjoy the day and the company, I'll just get on with my own day and my own game

I was always fortunate enough as a junior to be allowed to play mens comps, the rule at our place was single figure juniors only could play in mens comps. The stipulation was though you had to play with men members and 1 junior per group. I think that allows them to both be competitive with the men but also maintains balance for all involved

Just wondering how old are these juniors for it to be a problem. Isn't this all about stopping the "fuddy duddy" brigade that are in clubs and should be seen as the future and a very good thing. I don't mean that to appear offensive but just my view. As with any sport I'm sure they would appreciate your experience and in these circ's course management etc.

Noel - I'm not sure how old the juniors are but I'd guess they are older juniors, i.e. 16 or 17

I did go to great pains to try to explain I'm not one of the "fuddy duddy" brigade (I hope!) and I did say I have had no problem whatsoever in the past when being drawn with 1 junior at a time.

It's just the 2 juniors in a group of three that I have my doubts about

Hmmm update: just checked the draw sheet online and one of the juniors has withdrawn. Just a two ball now with the remining junior but there are people on the reserve list so I guess the question has gone away

Maybe the one who withdrew didn't want to play with another junior!

Davie

Do you have a beard?

That can scare away the kiddies.

NO Davie you shouldnt.Sounds as if you were drawn with two of the better players at the club and as its a medal a chance for you to concentrate on your own game.
Personally I have more problem with the older higher handicappers(no offence was one once)when its easy to get involved with ball hunting,dodgy rules,counting big numbers etc.Last drawn comp I played with a fella who shot 99 nett off 24.Made a 17 on one of the par 5s.Now that is a bad draw.

Not quite the same as playing with juniors, but I actually played one of my best Medal rounds when drawn with a 4 handicapper when I was off 24. She didn't mind in the least (or at least she was too polite to show it) and was very encouraging. It was a bit disconcerting when I had to take two shots to reach (or just pass) her drive on par 5s but I was chuffed to bits when I had a couple of pars and either equalled her score or bettered it. Needless to say my handicap was cut and I won my division.

Just a thought - shouldn't they be back at school on Wednesday?

Davie

No !

Interesting that our club champion this year was 15 years old (and 14 I think when the match play bracket started)!

Interestingly, as I said earlier, one of the juniors has withdrawn and the space filled up from the reserve list (who happens to be one of my regular social game partners!)

I now feel sorry for the junior!

No seriously, my friend and I will both try our hardest to put the junior at ease and not "exclude" him the way I wondered I would have been "excluded".

Do have sympathy for him though as my friend is known as a slow player (partly due to bad legs/knees - not wilfully slow but forced on him through medical problems). I'll have my work cut out trying to keep my friend moving along so as not to disrupt the junior's rhythm!

Wish me luck....

Davie- you'll have to wear a white belt to fit in with the juniors!

At the age of 14 (now 26) i was down to 4 handicap. At the time there were a couple of very promising juniors at our club (my best friend was 5, another guy a year older off 3). For all the wrong reasons (fuddy duddy old brigade) we weren't admitted to play in the full club competitions, something that was campaigned for a good few years by the incredible gentleman who gave up his time during the summer to run the junior section. Thankfully that has changed now and the juniors at our club are given playing rights once they reach a certain standard. This is the way it should always have been.

Davie
Many moons ago the same thing happened to me, I was bored stupid lost all interest in the round, I mean the young lads where so slow, and precise over every shot, I mean even a 2ft putt took about 2/3 mins for them to read the green, before tapping it in, I was 4hours 20mins on the course with no one to have a decent conversation with.

After that round I then wrote to the committee and stated that for future draws I did not wish to drawn with juniors, the did not seem pleased with my request, in fact 1 or 2 of them questioned me about it, and I said to them that golf for me was a social occasion, and I had nothing in common with the juniors, would rather not play than spend over 4 hours on the course with them. I did threaten if it happened again I would stop playing in comps and look to move to another club.

At the next annual meeting the subject was brought up, and it was voted that juniors had to play in their own comps, except for a certain few,(captains day being one of them), but they would need to seek permission from members if they could play with them and restricted to one junior per group.

I still left that club, and at my new club, can book a tee-time with my mates for all comps

To me OPW that is the opposite extreme. I really don't like the idea of booking tee times to play comps with mates. Having drawn comps is one of the big attractions for me so I get to play with different people.

I like the idea of restricting it to one junior per group though

I don't agree that you should get to choose your playing partners in medals as this only leads to creating pockets of cheats, but at the very least you shouldn't expect to be drawn with a chopper when you are low or vice versa. I'm all for meeting new people, but don't necessarily think that have to endure someone shooting over 100 is a good way to do it, as its disruptive as it is frustrating. I play golf to enjoy it, not be constantly looking for balls or using an abacus to count the score. Might seem snobbish, but I'm sure there as many high handicappers who don't enjoy playing with people who take their golf more seriously.

You are right s_r - there are people at both ends of the extreme. In general though I find most people somewhere in the middle (low handicappers who are quite happy to play with higher handicappers - as long as they aren't TOO obviously major hackers - and high handicappers who are quite happy to play with "serious" golfers and respect their ability

I too don't agree with competitions being in friendly 4 balls. Think draws are much fairer, our place operates a Juniors can play mens comps only if they are single figures and will not be drawn in a group with another junior. The ladies is similar but girls have to be Cat 2.

With regards to fairness of draws something my old club did was draw competitions based on divisions. Cat 1&2 were drawn together as they were same division and 3&4 were drwan together for same reason. SO for example a scratch player could play with a 12 which meant the 12 got to compete against lowers guys so to speak. Then the other half the draw say a 28 could be drawn with a 13 so again higher guys got to play with players much lower than them and everyone seemed to like this as it was like gaining a promotion if you crossed the divide

It's a h.c limit of 17 for juniors to be able to play in adult comps. They don't pay entry fee and aren't eligible for prizes (apart from £1 for 2s)

Our weekend medals are split into an A/B medal and a C medal (so 18 h.c and over or sub-18). Midweek medals aren't so busy so are open category - and open draw

Sounds like a good idea mav. I played a medal on TOC earlier this year and was drawn with a guy off about 20. He was about 12 over after 4, lost a ball on five and proceeded to walk back to the tee. WHY!!!!!.
Most of the time I don't mind who I play with but when a player is really bad my heart sinks.

while i wouldn't have a problem socially, playing in a group including 2 juniors, i think in a mens comp you have to keep the balance right for the benefit of all. if you are a junior playing in a mens comp you are the 'odd one out' so to speak anyway - to put the adult in that position doesn't seem the correct ettiquette. it would almost feel like you had been given special dispensation to play in a junior comp! far better to put the junior in the draw with a couple of guys who also differ in age, so no one feels out of place.

as a junior i was able to play in adult comps as soon as i was playing off a hcp of 12 or less. it was a great experience as it helped integrate me into the main club properly by the time i became a full member.

drawn / play with your mates comps is another matter altogether. i'm a member of 2 clubs where i experience both. at the latter, we have formed a group of about 25 guys where we try and mix up groupings as often as possible. it doesn't feel like playing within the spirit of the game / competition playing with the same partners all the time. doesn't have the same sense of taking part in an 'event' either. bum-shuffling rather than walking.

super_realist wrote:Sounds like a good idea mav. I played a medal on TOC earlier this year and was drawn with a guy off about 20. He was about 12 over after 4, lost a ball on five and proceeded to walk back to the tee. WHY!!!!!.
Most of the time I don't mind who I play with but when a player is really bad my heart sinks.

I think to this day this is the fairest and best solution to all competitions i've played at any club. You also got to see how competitive it made the higher guys to get lower and try cross the divide

I take offence that playing in comps with your mates might imply you are cheating, TOTAL PILE OF CRAP!!!!!

I play with my mates, because the golf is more enjoyable, and we would not let anyone infringe the rules of the game at anytime, comp or no comp

op, i think the implication was that it offers a clear opportunity for those who are scummy enough to do so, rather than an accusation.

Exactly ban, I ve witnessed people cheating in non drawn mid week sweeps. Don't kid yourself that golf is all that honourable amongst certain club golfers OP.

groups of friends who continually play together can and does lead to those being scum enough to cheat. also, as i have witnessed, the more casual atmosphere can lead to inadvertent "cheating" through a casual interpretation of the rules e.g. dropping in a more friendly position

Super

I would say that the fast majority of club golfers would rather call a penalty on themselves, rather than let someone think they might be cheating.

And at my club anyone caught or thought to be a cheat, would not be tolerated, and would end up with no one to play with in comps.

I would also say that anyone witnessing cheating should report it to the committee, as it should not be tolerated.

op, i've witnessed more 'incidents' whilst playing in drawn comps to be honest. most of the time the incidents are down to ignorance. playing in drawn comps means that ignorance can be flushed out by members who are knowledgeable with the rules playing with those who are less so. playing in cliques means that the ignorants will tend to play with each other - just in the same way that you find yourself playing with people who have a similar understanding of the rules and ettiquette as yourself.

Sorry but I play with my mates all the time, and we have never been called SCUM.

Out of the 16 of us who play on a regular basis (groups are drawn out of the hat) we have between all of us won 2 comps in the last 12 months.

So I will take offence that a few of you are implying that playing with your mates in comps, leads to cheating IT DOES NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lots on here about cheating on the course, but never anything about losing bets on the course and then not paying up. Would say that leads to far more acrimony and people getting drummed out of clubs in our area than cheating ever does.

Kwini
We play for money every week, you try and not pay, your life would be hell, believe me, just being late in paying up, and the amount of stick you get is awful

oldpar,
That's the way it should be, but some guys just get in over their heads.

Funny story: Friend of mine owns a public course but lots of the same guys play there day in, day out, week in, week out. I remarked to him once about some guys bickering over dollar skins and more exotic bets, greenies, sandies, you name it.
So my friend comes over and says:
"That's the way it is every round, pissing and moaning over a dollar here, dollar there. I quiet 'em down by buying them a pitcher of beer and they get the cards out and in no time the pots are up to hundreds of dollars, sometimes even more!"
Perspective!!

oldparwin- i did not mean to infer that you or your mates are cheating, i merely observed that it happens in groups of friends, through ignorance as well as outright cheating, that cannot be denied

I would say its easy to say, when someone shoots a better score than your " He's propabley cheated" sour grapes.

op, i think you're missing the point. please re-read. no-one is accusing you of being either a cheat, or a scumbag. it is my opinion that non-drawn comps will always offer someone who has a mind to cheat, more of an opportunity to do so. that doesn't mean every 3 ball that tees it up for a non-drawn comp is full of lying cheating scumbags!

ban_bam wrote:op, i think you're missing the point. please re-read. no-one is accusing you of being either a cheat, or a scumbag. it is my opinion that non-drawn comps will always offer someone who has a mind to cheat, more of an opportunity to do so. that doesn't mean every 3 ball that tees it up for a non-drawn comp is full of lying cheating scumbags!

op- i will second this. whether you like it or not , this happens in golf clubs everywhere, magic pencils unfortunately exist in amateur golf. there are no sour grapes on my part, i don't know where that came from, i never ever accused you of cheating, i was merely contributing to this debate.

Calm down OPW - I agree no one has made even the slightest suggestion that YOU (or your mates) are cheating. I do tend to agree with the people who say that kind of thing CAN lead to cheating but you are being just a little touchy about it IMO

Old and new 606 have had plenty of stories of people who play in the same groups every week (comps and social) and the leather wedge has been observed - or penalty drops in questionable places, or drops after OOB rather than walk back, or, or or ...

It does happen - but as far as I can see no one is suggesting you are a culprit

Jesus Christ OP, no one has suggested that you or your partners cheat, only that being allowed to choose your playing partners in medals creates an environment where msome people are more inclined to employ the magic pencil. I would have thought it was clear that that is what people are saying.

I would love the opportunity to play in a drawn competition with juniors but unfortunately the equal status club (of 30+ years) at which I'm a member, still holds its women's competitions midweek.

Play midweek then - or join another club

OPW. It does seem as though you have taken comments on here as a personal slant on your character. Having read through all the posts no-one has insinuated that you or your friends are cheats. They have merely stated in their personal experience non drawn comps have lead to some forms of cheating whether they be accidental misinterpretations of rules, leather wedges or magic pencils.

Its good that yourself and your playing partners continue to abide by the rules and play the game in its true spirit of competition. Unfortunately other groups of friends are not of the character of you and yours.

It is however true in a sense that iti s easier for some to get away with things more with mates than not in some instances.

Gael: I can only assume your club needs get with the times as not all females can play midweek as people are not just stay at home wives whilst the man brings in the money and that's a postive just seems your club need to see that too

You are all implying that playing with your mates makes it easier to cheat, than playing in a drawn competition, and I totally disagree, the one with the magical pencil will fancy his chances using it with strangers who do not know him, rather than with people who know him, and his hacking out of rough or penalty shots can be miss counted.
A low handicapper can bamboozle a high handicapper, and get favourable drops, due to the high handicapper not knowing the rules, or being frightened to question a better player.

Cheats will cheat when the opportunity to do so appears, he has a better chance of being given the benefit of the doubt with strangers, as opposed to the one's who know.

I prefer to pick my tee-time with my friends, knowing if playing well you will get encouragement, if playing badly the gags and piddle taking will make it a good round

OP, you seem to be a little bit confused.
In a drawn competition you cannot use the "magic pencil" because your card is being marked by someone else, usually a stranger or someone you may only know in passing. People are hardly likely to try on cheating when there is a likelihood they will be caught.

If however you are playing with a group of friends and no one is around to be suspicious or see a bad shot then it is easier to use the magic pencil as everyone in could be in on it., i.e "I'll just put you down for a five there".

I won't be the only one who has noticed great scores come in from people in non drawn events and then catastrophic scores in drawn medals just a few days later. Of course, sometimes they may well be scoring well and I may be doing them a disservice.
There is a couple of guys at my club who are well known for taking alternate weeks at getting cut and the other making buffer, it's so obvious, despite them thinking they've got a system designed to reduce suspicion.
In fact just the other week I saw one of them take at least 5 shots on 18, only to sign for a 4 when I looked at Howdidido the next day. That's what a magic pencil is and can only be done with the collusion of someone else. It's a concerted effort to put in good scores by all involved in the three ball.

Should I have reported them?, probably, but they are just choppers and getting cut does them no good if they can't play to it when it matters.

Thankfully the vast majority of golfers are honest and trustworthy, but the plain fact is that the OPPORTUNITY for cheating is far greater when you allow people to pick their playing partners for medals.

I think we need to agree to disagree on this one, me or any of my mates would not like to be known as a cheat or not playing exactly to the rules, we always change cards, and when I or for that matter any of my mates signs a card then the score on it is correct and accurate.