Wales - Player ratings and changes

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James - 6 - Scrum was solid against a powerful pack, pinged a few times but thats refereeing in the scrum, pretty quiet in the loose
Bennet - 7 - A few lost lineouts but the throwing was pretty good, offered himself a lot to get the hard yards around the ruck and defended fringes well
Jones - 6 - Solid scrum but anonymous in the loose, fell off a few tackles
Charteris - 7 - Keeping his form from the warm ups, starting to tackle like a 6 and clear rucks well
AWJ - 7 - Seems to have his passion back, worked hard all day
Lydiate - 8 - tackled, made to hard yards to set up a platform, disrupted the breakdown
Warburton - 8 - Made turnovers, carried well, tackled well
Felatau - 7 - Quiet in first half but came out firing, hopefully push on from there
Phillips - 6 - Slow ball, still stepping before passing, handy in defence and the odd run
Priestland - 8 - Some very clever kicks, not just punting down the field, awesomely timed passes to Roberts to make some good yards, couple of handy runs as well
Williams - 6 - A few runs, poor tackle for the try, at times didnt return kicks well
Roberts - 7 - Go to man off the lineout and always made yards, tackled well but not creative enough in open play
Davies - 6 - A few line breaks but nothing special, didnt look for the offload when getting tackled
North - 6 - Quiet game for him, a few runs but nothing major, inexperience showing in defence, could see his nerves at times
Hook - 6 - Missed the high ball to set up try, kicking was ok, solid enough in defence

Samoa up next and would sit Shane Williams out, starting with Halfpenny who offers a stronger defence and still enough in attack. If Byrne is training well then start him at 15 to get the game time, Hook on the bench. Don't want to risk changing the team too much against tough opposition.

hmmm they still don't match up with the ones on tv, but they seem fairly accurate Biltong.

Shows how important Faletau was for us, made so many more metres by far then any of our other forwards. Gave us great go forward.

rugby,

AGree he had great game but surprised to see he made more metres than Lydiate who was everywhere.

Great back row combo growing there.

Definitely. What's even more surprising (and perhaps telling) is that we only had 2 players who beat defenders. Faletau and J Davies. Shows we weren't making the most of our posession I guess.

What is good about this defeat is that while we all agree we played well, there's still so much we can do to improve. And by God I hope we learn from this game. Those players are never going to want to suffer a defeat like this ever again.

Stats are never the best way to read a game. They are deceptive. Faletau may well have made more yards, but don't forget it was his two breaks, one ending in the try, that was the only occasion of Wales making ground in open play. Lydiate earned his yards the hard way.

I find ESPN are usually the best for providing stats in a user friendly format. I'm pretty sure most places (certainly ESPN, SKY and most newspapers) source their stats from OPTA, so they should be pretty accurate, they're the premier sports data company about, providing for teams, broadcasters, media and the betting industry.

For Samoa, pretty much the same tactics, kicking long wont work but kicking shorter and into space will mean their big runners won't have the chance to accelerate. They won't be as good at the breakdown as the Saffers and their kicking and set piece won't be as good either so if Wales have the same performance levels they'd win by 20. Changing Shane for Halfpenny adds to the defence whilst holding a threat if he gets space.

Good defence is required so maybe bring Byrne in if he's been performing in training as Hook isn't the best positional of tackling 15.

No point in changing anything else unless someone has a knock. Make better use of subs, especially if scrum is dominating, fresh legs in the backs may be able to force a bonus point in the last 20.

Scoi, think that might be overly optimistic

Samoa could easily be just as good/physical as SA at the breakdown.

If there are no injuries I think we should play the same team. We need continuity and to build on a strong performance so let today's team go the extra distance and get the win. We are in knockout rugby already and it's all about winning. Thoughts?

team ratings

Wales - 4

showed that on their best day they can lose by just one point. showed their mental frailties by failing to win a game against weakened opposition. showed that no matter how much preperation the team gets they are unable to be anything on the world stage other than plucky losers.

dont say- on our day
do say- losers

Hey Bedford. Sorry been out all afternoon. Thought the 2nd row were excellent. AWJ got through a lot of work as did charteris, who's defence was excellent. It's the best I've seen charteris play in a welsh jersey and there was a real togetherness about Wales today. I can't remember the last time I saw wales' line-out function that well. Even in the grand slam years we got away with it to a certain extent.
Warren gatland said that charteris was wales' 1st choice 2nd row on form and now he's proved as much. I also thought that Bradley came on and carried in AWJ's good work and it all adds to more competition for places.
I know you didn't ask me about the back-row, but I just can't resist. Absolutely awesome.

Dogtooth. Please tell me that's a wind up.

manofgwent wrote:Dogtooth. Please tell me that's a wind up.

its the wales team winding us all up. no pat on the back for them from me im afraid.

I've been a big critic myself, but we were excellent today. I know where you're coming from if you're talking about mentality. If we're gonna be competitive with top nations, then hook should hold his nerve and kick his goal.,
I feel that this Wales team is a different animal to past teams. We've had good players and still do. When did we last play this well without relying on Shane or hook? We now have so many threats and our back-row is class.

Dogtooth

Your team played superbly today.

Any Welsh supporter would have clapped them off the field. Something you are not telling the rest of your fellow posters?. Perhaps not enough of your preferred players in the side maybe!

i didnt expect wales would win today. they played their best, they played very well, and they lost. a second half points advantage, ample posession and territory. still they were unable to press their advantage and were beaten.

wales lost the game that would define their world cup. expect another heroic defeat next week.

well played the best prepared losers in rwc11

Dog tooth.
I'm amazed at your response. Wales have been the best of all the NH teams so far. Yes, we lost. But we were playing the world champions. SA were no mugs. 815 caps says it all. It's disappointing that we lost, but that's competitive sport at the highest level. In such a tight game, it's the little things that win it. SA got away with one today and they'll know it.
Just look at how England performed against SA in the last WC. They were nilled. Yet they could have won in the final. I don't think Wales have anything to fear. I just hope the management can get them up as they will be feeling very low after today.

wales couldnt get themselves 'up for it' with a points advantage, territory and posession in the final quater. management will not be able to motivate these guys if they cant motivate themselves in some way too.

if wales couldnt beat sa today they will have no chance beating aus in the quaters. aus may win by a single point too but that is all you need to win, something wales, with the best preperation, are unable to do, still.

wales hit the start of the world cup in the best shape ever in terms of fitness and team preparation. they are unlikely to be able to improve on this level during the tournament. they will undoubltable become weaker and will pose no real threat in a quater final, if they even make it passed samoa next week.

i should move these comments to the match thread

do you want me to move them for you dogtooth?

rugbydreamer wrote:do you want me to move them for you dogtooth?

thanks

I don't think I can split a comment into an existing thread, only start a new one.

Copy and paste it over mate and I'll delete your comment off this thread.

Dog tooth. That's positive. I'm glad you're not in the welsh camp!!!
As i said. England were buried by SA in the last WC and made the final. I'm not saying Wales will make the final, but we have so much to build on.
I totally disagree that we are the prepared we could be. We have had a list of injuries and I think that priestland, Toby , knoyle and others should have more caps under their belts. But we're here now. Love gatland or hate him, this is how it i's. I for one, thought we'd be handsomely beaten today. But I was impressed. Really impressed. I won't get carried away, as I think Samoa will pose a different threat and if we do lose, we can pack our bags, but there is so much to be optimistic about.

I disagree that this is the best Welsh performance in the world cup. They had a slow start and didnt finish a number of chances. More game time will only help. Assuming it will be Australia in the quarters it's a tough ask, a completely different challenge to SA.

If i was Australian, i'd be thinking Wales are tough opponant for a second place group qualifier (assuming they do) and definitely a team to worry about.

For once it seems the mentality in the Wales camp is positive so they will walk into any match believing they have the ability to win.

I dont think Wales would beat Australia but it should be a cracking match with the ability to go either way.

MOG:

Agree, I think we can improve from this performance, we should have used the bench A Jones was out on his feet after 60mins, Hook at 10 will give us a cutting edge lacking today with all that possession and introduce Knoyle at 60mins to speed the game up. I would also bring on 1/2 penny for Shane. It is unusual for Gatland not to make changes, the only one he made was Bradley and he looked like a cart horse!

Just watched the Australian team v Italy they were not that great but we need to beat Samoa and Fiji first.

Difficult decision to make. Wales were on a roll and too many subs would have disrupted that. If he had brought more on the focus was lost he would have been slated for that.

Gethin must play next game if we are to get him fit for the quarters.

Don't see what Gethin would add. Paul James was excellent in a dominant scrum, and was equally excellent in the loose. Gethin needs to earn it. He has played very little rugby in the last twelve months, I'd rather he got his opportunity against Namibia, when a few changes are made, and then played off the bench against Fiji to, potentially, earn a place for the QF game (not getting ahead of myself, and the next three games are all tricky, but it's the best Gethin can hope for IMO; can't see how he could fairly displace Paul James for the selection for the Fiji game).

glamorganalun wrote:Just watched the Australian team v Italy they were not that great but we need to beat Samoa and Fiji first.

Believe me mate, highlights don't do it justice. Italy were excellent first half, played a fantastic tactical game, and yet Australia never showed a hint of panic, and never let Italy get close to their line until the scrum v (which they unfortunately botched, as it would have been a deserved try). But seriously, Australia look formidable. No one many are making them favourites to win it. If we do get to the QFs and play Australia, that will be as far as we go. Trust me.

gatland did everything right,if byrne was playing as he did a few years ago he would have been 15,you can't blame gatland for a missed drop goal,the controversial hook penalty should have been converted,(relatively straight forward kick by his standards) not gatlands fault,that's sport, drop goals and penalties missed will always happen.

Was anyone blaming Gatland? Gatland has earnt his contract extension in the last three months, brilliant preparation in that time and we now see, given significant time and the right attitude amongst the players, he has dragged Wales truly into the professional era and we will, if we stay on track, in two years time, be competing regularly with the SANZAR teams. And I mean competing as we were today, not simply staying within 10-12 points.

Where are those who were calling for Gatland's head in the last two years? Where are those who, after every loss or poor performance againt the 'lesser' teams, who, on the old 606, dismissed Gatland as the curse of Wales? Yeah, back in the woodwork until the next stumbling block comes up, when the blinkers will go down and all logic and context will be forgotten. Brilliant performance today in so many ways, but it's still devastating to come away from that game with a loss. Can't quite believe it.

miaow wrote:Was anyone blaming Gatland? Gatland has earnt his contract extension in the last three months, brilliant preparation in that time and we now see, given significant time and the right attitude amongst the players, he has dragged Wales truly into the professional era and we will, if we stay on track, in two years time, be competing regularly with the SANZAR teams. And I mean competing as we were today, not simply staying within 10-12 points.

Where are those who were calling for Gatland's head in the last two years? Where are those who, after every loss or poor performance againt the 'lesser' teams, who, on the old 606, dismissed Gatland as the curse of Wales? Yeah, back in the woodwork until the next stumbling block comes up, when the blinkers will go down and all logic and context will be forgotten. Brilliant performance today in so many ways, but it's still devastating to come away from that game with a loss. Can't quite believe it.

I completely agree.

Gatland has had his first whole pre-season with these players and it has transformed them.

Even if we lose in the 1/4s, Gatland has done his job well.

I will look forward to the 2012 6N with glee - England and Ireland look poor, Scotland and Italy wont trouble this Welsh team in Cardiff and who know what France will be like under new managment.

And, looking further ahead, in 2015 the majority of the players that played today will still be there. In this World Cup a lot have looked back on the loss to Fiji in 2007, next world cup hopefully they will look back on this game and rue what could have been - but also know that with 4 years less experience they pushed the World Champions all the way.

I don't want to get dragged into the typical English pundits' habit of looking forwards to the next WC when the one that's right in front of them isn't even over, but yeah, '15 should be exciting.

We consider that back row is 20, 22 and 23, with the likes of Tipuric pressurising 7, Turnbull able to play every position, potentially Hugo Ellis at 8, maybe Ben Morgan as well, possibly Pretorius at 6, McCusker...that will be a great spur and, just as importantly, cover for when, inevitably, one of the three gets injured.

The likes of Beck, Scott Williams and I imagine many more will come into the playmaker role at 12, meaning Roberts and JD2 may be in contention for the 13 shirt. Fly half looks strong, as does 9, with Tovey, Priestland, Biggar and Morgan and Knoyle, Webb, Lloyd Williams, Gareth Davies and Wayne Evans respectively. Full back is a problem, but with Prydie, Stoddart, 1/2P and, hopefully, Martyn Thomas, there are options. The wings, as usual, have plenty of players vying for the place, but we need to find someone to support North and 1/2P in the starting positions, whether it's K Phillips, Brew, whoever, there will be cover there, it's just about finding someone consistent and quality so we don't have to hand out 20 caps to players like Tom James and Chris Czekaj in the hope they become international players.

The forwards are something of a problem. AWJ and Brad have years left in them, thanfully, but beyond that, what is there? Again, Ian Evans showed he is not up to international standard on Sat. Dom Day? Lou Reed, maybe? Charteris was exceptional yesterday, let's hope he maintains that level.

The front row is an issue for me. I think Mitchell will grow at Exeter, but it will take time. He has a similar attitude to Adam, and he needs the years and experience to grow into what is a difficult position to play at the very highest level. Beyond that, Cai Griffiths? Played well at the weekend, but I've been underwhelmed in the past. Don't like the look of Scott Andrews. LH, Bevington looks decent in the loose. Maybe someone else will come through to support him. Hooker, I really hope Ken Owens can kick on and become the world class player he has threatened for so long. Not great options here, but Rees could still go for a while as well.

I'm optimistic. As always, the issue seems to be up front, but it's a tantalising prospect in the long run, just as it is exciting over the next few weeks seeing how the current crop will do, many of whom will be playing in their last WC.

Agree with the player ratings. Our loosies were the standouts. Had my heart in my mouth when we botched our first few line-outs, but Bennett recovered well and the simple ball to Charteris worked superbly. All players contributed. Probably the best Welsh performance we've seen since the last GS. Gutted that we didn't close out the game. A penallty and drop goal that might have gone over didn't. And of course Hook's 1st half penalty "miss" - shouldn't video evidence be used in such circumstances? Also a couple of forward breakouts immediately after the Felatau try should have resulted in points with a little more accuracy and savvy.

Having said that, there is still a problem with our inability to convert massive possession and territory into points. The possession we were were getting in key positions was often very slow. Backline moves lacked penetration - yes, Roberts made good ground and sucked in tacklers, but the ball died with him every time. Note the very sharp penetration by the Boks on the two occasions they got into threatening positions. Amazingly, we looked more likely to score a try boshing through the SA pack than from getting it wide. Tactical kicking by Priestland and Hook was mostly very good - but did we do too much of it?

So well done the boys. And yes, Gatland can take some credit. But let's not forget he took us on a long losing streak. And of course we could be effectively out of this competition this time next week. If that's the case I for one certainly will not agree that he has earned his contract renewal.

I would make minimal, if any changes. Hook at 15 does not work for me. We need him in a position where we can use his creativity, not just his big kicking. We also need better use of the bench. As someone mentioned, the Boks were saved by their subs, as their big names were looking ponderous and hesitant

Miaow:

I did watch the whole game and not highlights, Italy were out on their feet when most of the scores came. Italy's defence is nowhere near Wales defence (apart from Jon Davies) and they have no cutting edge behind. The good part for me was the near push over try Italy looked like getting.

You point about Gatland doing a good job is interesting, the team we have at the moment has been forced by injuries e.g P James, Toby, Preistland, Mitchell, Burns, North. We have wasted so much time on S Jones, A Powell, J Thomas, G Cooper, D Jones, T James, G Williams Pryde, when most Welsh supporters would select most of the above, we have lost a lot of games over the last couple of years through poor team selection and picking players out of position. Even now we have our best flyhalf (unless you are a Scarlet supporter) playing 15 to keep a donkey (S Jones) steering the team to defeat.

I have to say we did much better than I thought but SA looked past it, with 60% possession we had little cutting edge but we did not interchange 10 and 15 when we are in attack. I don't think we should have a captain with little or no experience and I think we paid for that inexperience e.g., demanding the video ref for the penalty! Did you see our captain talking to the ref?

The problem we have is we have lost so many games for reasons above we are happy with a close defeat, I don't think Gatland has done a great job, we have the players but it is more down to default, the tactics have been krap up until now and there was a lot of the left/ right in the game just gone which may explain our lack of cutting edge (and slow service) as the oppositon know what we are trying to do.

alun,

I wouldn't say Faletaus' selection is down purely to injury but agree with your point on the others.

I still think we have missed the chance to blood a replacement for Byrne by just moving Hook back there all the time.

Bedford,

I meant to make the same comment regarding Bryne at Full back, Toby's selection had more to do with Powell's behaviour and injury in the England game, after Powell disappeared I thought our back row looked good then Ryan got injured. Going into the RWC with Toby with 3 caps is a big ask and it showed in the first half with a lot of the squad.

Alun,

I know we don't agree on this topic but if Delve had been selected then I would have started with him and Toby on the bench.

Thats aside I am glad Gatland had the guts to pick him over Powell, his in-experience did show a little in the 1st half but he grew into the game and had a great 2nd half.

That performance and the try will now spur him on even more and I really do like the look of the back row as a Unit.

I would go so far as to say its our most balanced back row Unit for many a year.

My only criticism is that Gatland probably should've brought on a few subs when we had SA on the ropes - i,e Tavis to quicken up the pace, Powell to smash already tired defenders etc

Knoyle definately as Phillips' service was laboured again on Sunday and he got caught a few times at the back of the ruck.

I have alwasy said that Powell is best suited to that of an impact palyer causing havoc against tired teams.

munkian wrote:My only criticism is that Gatland probably should've brought on a few subs when we had SA on the ropes - i,e Tavis to quicken up the pace, Powell to smash already tired defenders etc

Absofeckinglutely

Considering it was only his second start at 10, Priestland had an amazing game; Charteris especially deserves an apology from me, as he played a blinder; the loosies were outstanding; even the centre combo looked promising at last.

We lost mainly cos we aren't quite good enough all round. But there are no simple solutions to this - and we dont have any superstar game-changers waiting in the wings (or anywhere else, come to that). So rather than further tinkering with selection, the most likely way to produce improvement is to give the same combinations more time together.

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:Considering it was only his second start at 10, Priestland had an amazing game; Charteris especially deserves an apology from me, as he played a blinder; the loosies were outstanding; even the centre combo looked promising at last.

We lost mainly cos we aren't quite good enough all round. But there are no simple solutions to this - and we dont have any superstar game-changers waiting in the wings (or anywhere else, come to that). So rather than further tinkering with selection, the most likely way to produce improvement is to give the same combinations more time together.

largely agree but i think shane will be found out again and shoudl be dropped to the bench for 1/2, agree ref charteris i am now his number one fan. We need a bench too and i think Geth and SJ will figure.

It's not that far back that a off form Shane would have been our best player on the field I'm glad we have moved on.

Cymroglan wrote:It's not that far back that a off form Shane would have been our best player on the field I'm glad we have moved on.

Oh Shane in space when we are in the ascendancy is the best player for finishing but, he is a specific weapon and i think Samoa and Fiji do not suit his game (massive understatement) and we can't afford it...its a bit like the Nugget problem...hugely influential but better options

Bedford:

It was interesting on scrum V talking to JT, he and Delve are on stand by, a bit strange as Delve did not get any game time as he was more likely to replace R Jones for the Argentina game but Powell had another chance, it is the only time I and my brother screamed nooooooooo as Powell went over to score.

They said on the news today that if Wales had picked up any injuries in the match against SA then Ryan would have gone home and we'd have flown someone else out. As it is, we got through it unscathed, and Ryan is on track to be fit for the Fiji game.

Both Geth and Stevo are to take part in full training this week, and if they get through that they will be up for selection for the game on Sunday.

Did they say who would have been flown in ?

don't think so, also just noticed Alyn's already put up a thread about this as well, might have more info there.