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Khan v Prescott

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Post by Guest Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:35 pm

Just a question, please don't tear me to shreds.

I noticed a few references to Khan's lack of a chin and it reminded me of the Prescott fight and was interested to know if this is considered as a major howl up by Khan's camp or did they generally believe Khan could beat him.

I can't recall but was Roach his trainer at the time? If so was he happy to take the fight? if not was this fight the catalyst for Khan linking up with him?

Cheers,

KB

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:38 pm

It was seen as a gimme fight for Khan and was before he linked up with Roach, in his next fight against Oisin Fagan Roach was in his corner.

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Post by Scottrf Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:39 pm

Roach was not his trainer. It was a Cuban, forget his name off the top of my head, but he was sacked for recommending the opponent.

He could have beaten him, but went in with the wrong mindset that he could just walk him down and was used to guys not firing back. I'm guessing the matchmaker saw Prescott's record and presumed he had only been in with tomato cans and wouldn't have the skill to win. Khan should have outboxed him easily really, Prescott has no technical skill just wide looping shots.

I wouldn't cite this fight as an example of his lack of chin, it was a massive shot. Just one he should have seen.

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Post by Guest Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:40 pm

What was Prescott's record beforehand?

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Post by oxring Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:42 pm

He was trained by the uncle/godfather (can't remember which) of Prescott, who recomended Prescott.

Prescott was all wrong for Khan and removed him from the equation at LW for ever. Putting on weight has been good for Amir's chin - but I reckon vulnerabilities remain.

This fight was the catalyst for Khan to link with Roach. Roach needed a fighter who had a jab as sparring practice for Manny-Oscar. He trained Amir into the bargain. Khan came back with a good win over Fagan - although Fagan never really achieved anything of note.

I would love to see him fight Ortiz. Pace and power.
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Post by Union Cane Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:43 pm

Prescott was 19-0 going into the fight, Khan was 18-0.
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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:45 pm

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Post by skidd1 Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:47 pm

Khan's chin has not improved.His defensive capabilities have however.There is a subtle difference and that is down to Roach.
Credit to Khan himself as well though.Prescott is a hard puncher but limited in most other areas
Bad choice at the time but as usual hindsight is a perfect science

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Post by STC Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:50 pm

The shots Khan took would have put anyone down.
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Post by Guest Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:51 pm

Skidd,

You mean in the sense that now he knows how to protect his chin?

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:52 pm

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Post by Scottrf Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:53 pm

King Beer wrote:Skidd,

You mean in the sense that now he knows how to protect his chin?
Maybe he knows how to ride with it after he's been hit better but no way he protects it well enough.

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Post by skidd1 Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:58 pm

King Beer ..Yes..I dont think the actual chin can be improved but head movement,footwork and defensive skills certainly can
A fighters reaction when tagged can also be improved.The early Benn would fold when caught.He learnt to compose himself and get valuable recovery time later in his career.The chin was still the same though
Bruno unfortunately never learnt this

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:59 pm

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Post by Rowley Thu 24 Feb 2011, 4:59 pm

Prescott was eminently beatable as Kevin Mitchell proved subsequently. However he was a guy people knew very little about, but he went in with a record of 18-0 with something like 16 Kos so even the most simple of folk should have been able to infer from that the kid might be able to bang a bit.

With this in mind Khan should have come out with a high guard, take a few on the gloves and see exactly how hard he was hitting, if he had genuine power get on his bike and use the jab, if he was not hitting to hard, stand and me more aggressive. He didn't do this he ran across the ring with his chin out to dry and paid the price.

This was not too much too soon or overmatching Khan it was him fighting like a clown if I'm brutally honest.

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Post by Scottrf Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:01 pm

rowley wrote:This was not too much too soon or overmatching Khan it was him fighting like a clown if I'm brutally honest.
To be fair, what do we expect when all his previous opponents were light punching guys moving up, with no real will to win.

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Post by Guest Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:01 pm

Wasn't the great conspiracy theory that Khan's trainer (Jorge Rubio?) was was the uncle of Prescott's fiancee and that Rubio suggested Prescott so he'd get a pay day and be able to afford a wedding

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Post by OasisBFC Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:02 pm

Im very lucky as i get to speak to many boxers from time to time - khan said he had to lose 8lbs in a day to make the lightweight limit.

that'll do it. he went in feeling very weak, and though its no excuse for his defence, he would have gone down from any decent shot from anyone that night.


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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:03 pm

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Post by skidd1 Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:04 pm

I dont think Khans chin has improved but his defence and his ringcraft certainly have
He still looks a bit vulnerable when tagged though

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:08 pm

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Post by STC Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:15 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:Being weight drained dramatically decreases your punch resistance. I thought this was a known fact.

No it's theory. It suggests that the brain is dehydrated and unable to perform to it's full capacity. All fighters are fully hydrated when entering the ring. Even if they have dehydrated themselves for the weigh in.

You also assume that Khan was weight-drained at lightweight. Again, there is no evidence to back this up.
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Post by Guest Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:17 pm

Being weight drained dramatically decreases your punch resistance. I thought this was a known fact.
*****************************************************
It certainly is round at the WildCard. Freddie was quick to suggest it when a fight with Oscar was mooted. In fact, he loves it so much, he can't seem to suggest anything else these days!

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Post by skidd1 Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:19 pm

D4...The knockout blow to the chin is caused by force being applied to one of the bodys pressure points. Their accesibility or susceptibility varies from person to person.They can be made less vulnerable by the addition of muscle but you cant add muscle to the chin. At least not as far as I know.
Khan seems to have better head movement now and I would suggest that may be the difference
Punch resistance is a more general term and yes it can be affected by being weight drained or fatigued .Age and conditioning play a part as well


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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:21 pm

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Post by Rowley Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:23 pm

since every boxer that puts on weight improves their chin.
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Calzaghe didn't seemed a lot more susceptible to going over at light heavy than he did at super middle. Went over to both Hopkins and Jones, one has never been noted as a massive puncher and one was a shell

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:27 pm

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:30 pm

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Post by Rowley Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:31 pm

Whatever the cause of the knockdowns or their nature Joe has 40 odd fights at super middle and went over once. He had two at light heavy and went over in them both. Kind of suggests that he certainly did not develop better whiskers when he put on extra poundage.

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Post by STC Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:32 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:

It a theory that stand up to testing, since every boxer that puts on weight improves their chin.

And the fluid around the brain takes longer hydrate than the rest of the body, it not like you drink some water and it hydrates the brain.
You're just making stuff up now.


D4thincarnation wrote:Plus being bigger will improve you punch resistance, according to Newtons law.
You're also being hit with greater force. That's Newton's Law too.


D4thincarnation wrote:Fighter after fighter have claim their punch resistance was affected by cutting too much weight the day before the fight.
"Claim" being the important word.
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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:34 pm

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Post by Sugar Boy Sweetie Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:37 pm

Khan had been in with a load if blown up super feathers prior to Prescott, a couple of whom had already decked him, so the warning signs were there. Prescott was a natural lw, taller than khan and had a record of 19-0 with 18 ko's. It was an accident waiting to happen.

I maintain that it's not so much khans chin that's the issue, but that he gets buzzed easily from temple shots. I also maintain that khan does not have natural defensive instincts. Roach has trained him to keep a high guard behind a long jab, but he has to concentrate on this - being defensive doesn't cone naturally to him. This is why I firmly believe that khan will get knocked out at world level again. He was going in rd10 against maidana, but fortunately maidana was too exhausted to finish the job at that stage. But khan doesn't handle pressure well, doesn't have natural defensive instincts and IMO will get ko'd by the next quality pressure fighter with a bit of pop in his punches that he meets.

That's not me dissing khan, I like him, but just calling it as I see it. Prescott may have been a wake up call, and he may have tightened his game up a bit since then, but the frailties remain. Khan also has clumsy feet when he's being offensive, which leave him open to counters - which is why I think the talk of him fighting mayweather is crazy, he just doesn't have the all round skill or enough power to trouble mayweather, and I actually think Bradley wil be too strong and quick on the inside for khan to handle.
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Post by Rowley Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:40 pm

D4 it still doesn't change the fact he was not getting put over as frequently at supermiddle be they by stray forearms of flash knockdowns. Given he faced Bika down there find it hard to believe he never caught a stray arm or head at that weight. Your original comment was every fighter that puts on weight improves their chin, the evidence in Calzaghe's case is thus

Supermiddle 44 fights - knock downs 1 (maybe 2)

Lighy heavy 2 fights - knock downs 2

Hardly needs Carol Vorderman to do the maths on that one does it.

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:47 pm

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Post by skidd1 Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:47 pm

The chin is a pressure point area as is the temple (see the Donaire ko)
Lots of good factual stuff on the internet about it
Used by law enforcement agencies and armed forces world wide .They work they exist its just that some people are more prone to them than others
Some dont work on certain people at all .This is explained by the particular pressure point being buried behind muscle or bone
Generally with a clean ko.Right on the button(pressure point)the recipiant feels virtually no pain.Lose control of the legs or come too feeling stunned and dazed.
If anyone is interested further then an Amercan guy called George Dillman is the best I have ever seen .Lots of his stuff on youtube
Russel Stuteley (Might need to check the spelling) does some interestring stuff in the UK and is worth a look as well.
How or why they work is relatively unimportant.The fact they do is the point of it all.

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Post by azania Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:50 pm

Its getting tiresome saying Khan is chinny. When he was a lightweight, its pretty obvious he was weight drained. He took a howitzer from Maidana and stood up and towards the end of the round came firing back. Is that chinny? Many supposed non chinny fighters would have gone down to that punch.

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Post by Rowley Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:50 pm

In all fairness Calzaghe was talking about moving to light heavy years before he did and talking of the difficulties he had making the weight so if your theory stands up he should have been far more robust when he made the move but i'm afraid the evidence simply does not support this in his case.

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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:56 pm

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Post by The Galveston Giant Thu 24 Feb 2011, 5:57 pm

Joe got dropped by Kabary Salem (The Egyptian magician) in Edinburgh, was quite a heavy knock down.
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Post by D4thincarnation Thu 24 Feb 2011, 6:01 pm

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Post by hampo17 Thu 24 Feb 2011, 6:20 pm

The Maidana fight showed how Khans ability to take a punch has improved with the move up in weight, what has also improved is his ring craft. Against Prescott he should have gotten on his bike instead of trying to trade, however against Maidana he was like the roadrunner!

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Post by azania Thu 24 Feb 2011, 8:52 pm

D4thincarnation wrote:
skidd1 wrote:The chin is a pressure point area as is the temple (see the Donaire ko)
Lots of good factual stuff on the internet about it
Used by law enforcement agencies and armed forces world wide .They work they exist its just that some people are more prone to them than others
Some dont work on certain people at all .This is explained by the particular pressure point being buried behind muscle or bone
Generally with a clean ko.Right on the button(pressure point)the recipiant feels virtually no pain.Lose control of the legs or come too feeling stunned and dazed.
If anyone is interested further then an Amercan guy called George Dillman is the best I have ever seen .Lots of his stuff on youtube
Russel Stuteley (Might need to check the spelling) does some interestring stuff in the UK and is worth a look as well.
How or why they work is relatively unimportant.The fact they do is the point of it all.

All that pressure point stuff is like aromatherapy, not scientifically based.

The reason why you get KOed when you get tagged on the chin, or is because of the rotational force. Jabs and straight will rarely KO someone, because the head and neck can cushion that blow and the muscles in the neck and absorb it before the head goes fly back.

Hooks and uppercuts make the neck snap back or turn much more there is less muscle and the spine is less supportive. Catching someone on the causing a larger swing that if you catch them on the top of the head.

All this is backed up by science.

I think Nigel Benn would disagree when he fought Mike Watson and certainly Duran was rolled over by a viscious straight right. Wasn't the right down the middle a speciality of Hearns? The KO comes because the brain rotates and hits the inside of the skull.

Oh and aromatherapy works :love 4:

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