Would Byron Kelleher start for New Zealand

Can't say I rate Jimmy Cowan in any way shape or form. I like Weepu but he doesn't seem to be popular with coaches. Would Kelleher be a starter if he plied his trade in NZ.

Yes. Weepu is nothing special either, Cowan isnt great. The following would be starters for NZ:

Youngs
Parra
Yachvilli
Genia (obviously)
Kelleher
DuPreez
Doussain (potentially)

Is this the key to beating them. Targetting their scrumhalf?

No. The key to beating them is winding up McCaw (ala Cooper), bullying their forwards (ala SA) and showing them 0 respect (ala France and England to a lesser extent)

Scrumhalf is a problem area for NZ. Cowan infuriates me every game with his aimless kicking and slow clearing, and Weepu just doesn´t seem to have a full game in him. Kelleher is getting on but he has a quick pass and is great for those sniping runs down the short side to keep defences guessing.

But winning the breakdown is the key to any side wishing to beat the ABs and that involves more than the scrumhalf.

BTW Kia, how long are you without Read. Vito doesn't look upto it. Would Messam have been an option at 8?

I haven't seen Kelleher play in 4 years, how is he going in Top14?

If he looks better than Mike Phillips then he'd start ahead of Cowan (I rate the 2 about on a par).

Going well enough. Won trophies with Toulouse such as the Heineken Cup and French Top 14 League. He has now moved onto Stade Francais. I watched him play this week and last week. I'd start him ahead of Cowan. He's got equally as nice a personality as Cowan I hear!

red_stag wrote:He's got equally as nice a personality as Cowan I hear!

Ouch.

Though that American porn star must have seen something in Kelleher's "personality" a few years back

Think she saw him on TV every week and was sold. Literally sold, I hear that French clubs pay decent wages

Supposed to come back for the Canada game Stag. Vito is not up to this level and frankly Messam has failed to impose himself on the international stage too. So Read is a vital link. I hope he comes right. I expect him to play 40 mins against Canada, who should provide a tough physical battle in the forwards. Then a little longer against the quarter final opponent and then hopefully he´s pretty much right for the big semi final game. That backrow cover, flyhalf and scrumhalf are definitely key problems. But hopefully that cover won´t be needed and we can maximise the best out of Cowan and Weepu. Nobody said it was going to be easy...

Kiwireddevil wrote:

red_stag wrote:He's got equally as nice a personality as Cowan I hear!

Ouch.

Though that American porn star must have seen something in Kelleher's "personality" a few years back

Porn Star?
No, no, no.
She is an Artiste - an artistic talent of trerrific proportions.

I have to say, good as Read is, he isn't in the same class as Kaino or McCaw for me. He's just better than the other number 8 contenders.



Its likely to be Australia v England and New Zealand v South Africa in semis so you need him.

Weepu is slower than my Aunt Doris.

Cowan is horribly average although he clearly thinks he's superb.

Have always liked Kelleher although I have no idea what his fitness is currently like.

Well I beg to differ there Stag. I think all three are in the same class and more importantly combine very effectively as a unit. He is a senior player who just doesn´t have adequate replacement. I agree his form this year hasn´t been what it has in the past but then again nor is Richie´s. But at the business end of the comp you want your senior, experienced players and hope they perform.

Read will be definitely needed.

It´s a moot point George in any event as no player playing overseas can be picked for the ABs. Nick Evans and Kelleher might well be welcome additions but frankly I think the policy is the correct one otherwise the floodgates would open with a vengeance.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:It´s a moot point George in any event as no player playing overseas can be picked for the ABs. Nick Evans and Kelleher might well be welcome additions but frankly I think the policy is the correct one otherwise the floodgates would open with a vengeance.

Agree. All jokes and exaggeration aside imagine if NZ ended up like Brazil in soccer. Despite being the traditionally best nation, most of their best players play in Europe and they arrange friendly matches in the UK. I'd hate to see it and money talks. Its a great policy and keeps the black jersey special. Because you won't find Black jerseys in England

red_stag wrote:I have to say, good as Read is, he isn't in the same class as Kaino or McCaw for me. He's just better than the other number 8 contenders.



Its likely to be Australia v England and New Zealand v South Africa in semis so you need him.

Agree on Read Stig. Read just looked because in the super 15 there were no decent 8s, spies who is very average was probably second best until recently.

Kelleher is playing well in club rugby. Club rugby isnt test rugby.
He might have got in if he'd come back for sxv.
But that is just to show how bad things are at half.
Id probably have marshall out there as he is now.

At their best Read is far superior and more consistent than Kaino who has taken years to develop this form. Reid was the premier 8 last year. Comparison to spies is just silly. Never rated spies.

9 definitely is a concern though. We have to play Cowan against Genia to have a hope of containing him and that's a worry elsewhere.

leinsterbaby wrote:No. The key to beating them is winding up McCaw (ala Cooper), bullying their forwards (ala SA) and showing them 0 respect (ala France and England to a lesser extent)

I thought the key to beating them was to make sure you play them in the knockout stages of a WC
Perphaps after this WC the collective "we" will have to come up with a new strategy to beat them.

Here's a top strategy the French have employed:



- Buy all their best players

- Make sure they then can't play for NZ

- Beat them in the RWC

red_stag wrote:Here's a top strategy the French have employed:



- Buy all their best players

- Make sure they then can't play for NZ

- Beat them in the RWC

Then lose to England

not sure if BK is good enough for NZ nowadays (he has been a tad inconsitent last season and I fear that Paris nightclubs might be too much for him !).

what I know is that I would trade Parra or Yachvilli for Mcalister anyday...

would even throw one of our number 8 (lakafia, picamoles) in the deal if NZ is desperate for a decent backup.

while I am at it, you can get a coach for free in the process!

Bring back Graeme Bachop. None of the subsequent 9s have been up to his standard.

NZ dont do scrumhalves,never did.They hailed Going who couldnt even make the Welsh crowd.

Agree disneychilly. Graeme Bachop is perhaps the most underrated All Black. Sweet pass, could play like an extra loose forward on defence and had a good kicking and running game. Then again we seem to have a neverending supply of first fives and opensides so you can´t have it all really.

Taffineastbourne,David Kirk,Kevin Briscoe,Desmond Connor,David Loveridge,Graeme Bachop,Chris Laidlaw,Justin Marshall,Syd Going,Byron Kelleher,Brendon Leonard[ at 2007RWC],were all good scrumhalves.
You don`t rate Jimmy Cowan neither do i,his delivery from the base of the ruck is too slow.BUT compared to the Welsh gentlemen officiating at the base of the Welsh ruck.he was greased lightning.The delivery from the base of the rucks cost you the Bok game.
Incidentally for your information NZ did`nt rate THE
Great Welsh side of the 1970`s.Especially Gareth Edwards anf Barry John.
They did rate David Watkins as did most Welshmen at the time over John.
Clive Rowlands at Scrum half,fly halves did`nt exist for him,he kept the ball between him and his forwards.
NZ don`t do Scrum halves?,they do the basics better than most they don`t do flash.They seldom do bad scrum halves its a matter of degree.
Scrum halves play as the coaches want them to play.THE best Scrum Half in NZ is playing for Samoa.The cheek of it poaching a New Zealander to play for them.
How many starts has Weepu had,just got back after injury,Andy Ellis has improved his game immensly this year.
He deserves a start,how many games has a bad Scrum half cost NZ,out of the total 33 lost since 1996.
The World Champions,with the worlds best scrum half ,have dropped 20 games since RWC 2007 final,The All Blacks 9 go figure.

Yeah Ellis is probably the best of a bad 3 at half. Weepu is the only that can get to a suitably high standard but needs a good day for that.

Looking at that list of 9's its not great. 2-3 positions we've traditionally not been strong in is 9, 12, 13. 12 especially. none of our 9 would make top 5 halves of all time and certainly no 12's or 13's.

So for this cup at least 2 out of 3 aint bad...

Taylorman, Bunce and Little were pretty useful. Nonu and Smith are not too shabby either.

Sometimes we AB fans can get too picky.

Agree Kia. Seems like to be a good AB you have to be undisputably the best in the world in your position sometimes. The reality is that if you're an All Black, you're pretty much a bloody good player, no matter how many others are also bloody good in your position around the world.

(NB exceptions being Simon Mannix, Mark Carter, Caleb Ralph, insert your own)

disneychilly wrote:Agree Kia. Seems like to be a good AB you have to be undisputably the best in the world in your position sometimes. The reality is that if you're an All Black, you're pretty much a bloody good player, no matter how many others are also bloody good in your position around the world.

(NB exceptions being Simon Mannix, Mark Carter, Caleb Ralph, insert your own)

Just don't mention Shane Philpott. He's a wee bit over the put-downs.

Conrad Smith is pretty much as good as any 13,J.B.Smith,and Bert Cooke would be high on anyones list,Tana Umaga was`nt so dusty or Joe Stanley,or Ian Macrae,Paul Little,Walsh.Morrie Goddard.all useful 12or 13.

emack2 wrote:Taffineastbourne,David Kirk,Kevin Briscoe,Desmond Connor,David Loveridge,Graeme Bachop,Chris Laidlaw,Justin Marshall,Syd Going,Byron Kelleher,Brendon Leonard[ at 2007RWC],were all good scrumhalves.
You don`t rate Jimmy Cowan neither do i,his delivery from the base of the ruck is too slow.BUT compared to the Welsh gentlemen officiating at the base of the Welsh ruck.he was greased lightning.The delivery from the base of the rucks cost you the Bok game.
Incidentally for your information NZ did`nt rate THE
Great Welsh side of the 1970`s.Especially Gareth Edwards anf Barry John.
They did rate David Watkins as did most Welshmen at the time over John.
Clive Rowlands at Scrum half,fly halves did`nt exist for him,he kept the ball between him and his forwards.
NZ don`t do Scrum halves?,they do the basics better than most they don`t do flash.They seldom do bad scrum halves its a matter of degree.
Scrum halves play as the coaches want them to play.THE best Scrum Half in NZ is playing for Samoa.The cheek of it poaching a New Zealander to play for them.
How many starts has Weepu had,just got back after injury,Andy Ellis has improved his game immensly this year.
He deserves a start,how many games has a bad Scrum half cost NZ,out of the total 33 lost since 1996.
The World Champions,with the worlds best scrum half ,have dropped 20 games since RWC 2007 final,The All Blacks 9 go figure.

You can reel off a list of people who wore 9 for NZ.,even a Samoan.Not one can be considered a "great".Adequate is the word..Have not previously encountered a Kiwi that didnt rate Gareth.Have you had a concussion?I suggest watching the vids/Youtube or whatever.
Dai Watkins was a mighty fine 10,not sure that he ever played 10.If he did I missed it.

Taffineasbourne,you made a rash statement,I corrected it,reeled of a list ,not one great? Des Connor was THE best scrum halve I have seen,HE was GREAT ask any Aussie he was a Wallaby as well,Dave Loveridge with Ken Catchpole had the fastest delivery.BOTH were great,Gareth Edwards learnt his spiral spin pass from Chris Laidlaw,Laidlaw in his time was rated world Number one.
Read" The Red Dragons of Wales" by Sir Terry McLean,the 1969 Welsh side was rated the worst touring side ever!!.
Who needs you tube,I saw all those mentioned,can you say as much Gareth Edwards ,my own opinion was a great scrum half,BUT NOT the best i`ve seen..The opinion was that of NZ at the time they toured,I did not say I considered Edwards nothing.
All those mentioned were far more than adequate,they were as good as or better than most of there Welsh equivalents.Please don`t make statements that are untrue,your opinion of course is valid as is mine.

Incidentally not sure what you are saying about David Watkins,I sdaw him play a t 10 for Wales versus the 1963-4 All Blacks,he also toured NZ with the Lions in1966 playing 10.

Yes thats what I meant Taff.
None of: David Kirk, Kevin Briscoe, Desmond Connor, David Loveridge, Graeme Bachop, Chris Laidlaw, Justin Marshall, Syd Going, Byron Kelleher, Brendon Leonard is in the same league as Edwards, Farr-Jones, Ken Catchpole and I would even add Joost at a pinch. I like Bachop too but wasnt around long and was really just very good, not one of the greats.

Connor, Going and Laidlaw probably our greatest but not in edwards class.

By great i mean players regular appearing in the greats list or near it. We have them in almost every other position- Whinneray, Gray, Fitzy, Meads, Jones (M and P), McCaw, Lochore and probably 6 or 7 other loosies, Carter, Lomu, Kirwan, Cullen (Clarke, Scott, Nepia).

The best 13's would be Bunce, Stanley, Umaga, Stanley, J Smith, Robertson, Rangi and now C Smith none of which figure in any all time lists- perhaps Smith now and P Smith at the time.

Best 12's is the worst- little, Cooke, Osborne?, McRae. In fact Nonu is bordering on our best ever at the moment.

Not saying they're not great players, they just don't match the levels in their positions that others did and for me its no coinicidence that our midfields have generally struggled in World cups that 15's have often had to slot there, with disastrous results. Taylor and Stanley were good in 87 and Little. Bunce in 95 but even they were kept quiet by the Boks when it mattered.

when people talk about all time greats list,you have to realise it is a matter of opinion.All time best whats that all about,just a mater of opinion,Danie Craven would be high on the list of scrumhalves,Freddie Allen rated Des Connor as the best.Fly halves Cliff Morgan,Bennie Osler,Mark Nichols,THE best i`ve seen was Mike Gibson,also was one of the best 12`s.
Carbine Wallace ,anywhere in the back field ,full Back Bob Scott.
People like John and Carke ,even Johnny Wilkinson people rate as greats
because of there goal kicking.
When you pick a team nowadays,the Fly half has to be a good goalkicker WHY?.
Rugby s a team game your goal kicker can be anyone,not just a FH.

Wales showed in the Autumn that Cowan can certainly be targeted, and they got to him by rushing him and chargin him down and just generally disrupted his service to Carter. This is turn affected Carter's game, who kicked poorly and was quiet for the full 80.

However, as mentioned, NZ were so superior in nearly every of facet, they easily won the game. And Cowan set up Afoa with a little reverse behind the back pass when the game was getting close to the end, showing that he could still have an impact when playing badly.

I think the reality is, without Carter and McCaw, NZ become a team similar to Australia in quality. And 9 is a reason for this; Aus have a Genia, NZ do not.