5 90s vs 2010s

First topic message reminder :

Just for a bit of fun, here are some mythical matchups to ponder from the 1990s vs today:

Lennox Lewis vs Wladimir Klitschko (Heavyweight);
Oscar De La Hoya (1995) vs Brandon Rios (Lightweight);
James Toney (Circa 1992) vs Sergio Martinez (Middleweight);
Chris Eubank vs Carl Froch (Super-Middleweight);
Ike Quartey vs Andre Berto (Welterweight.)

Interested to see who you think wins and why; as I say, just a bit of fun!

samevans1 wrote:Who would you pick Green Giant?

Having the 2010s gives us one year in the decade to chose our fighters. so you shouldnt be afraid to pick the best in the divsion to represnt the decade.
Rios has just came onto the scene and wouldnt stand a chance againest oscar who was a monster at lightweight and very technically sound. you have to pick Marquez for lightweight only fair.

Berto is a joke. If you dont want to pick may or pac you could chose mosley, cotto hell even clottey is better.

MIddleweight is fine, though besides martinez the divsion is dead.

I liked the supermiddleweight one. And Vlads the best out there.

samevans1 wrote:You are wrong, Azania; Taylor had only been stopped once, by Pavlik; prior to Froch beating him.

Didn't AA flatten him also? 12 round ko? Or was that after Froch? I'll add that Pavlik is a deceptively average fighter.

Won't put Mayweather or Pacquiao in a thread as I want fun, knowledgeable debate.

For the same reasons I never comment on articles about Tyson!

Your points are valid about Oscar-Rios; I watched him yesterday, so thought it might be fun! How doe you see De La Hoya-Marquez panning out?

After Froch mate.

Was just about to point that out, he was KO'd by Pavlik who would make Watson look like a small Super Middleweight

Well seeing as Pascal has never been stopped I can't see how you come to conclusion that Benn who wasn't a massive puncher at Super Middleweight stops him

Eubank, Watson and Benn were good they weren't great, I imagine that when all is said and done that Froch will be a borderline top ten british fight while Eubank and Benn are around the lower reaches of a top 20.

We will know a lot more about Froch's all time standing in a year or so; because realistically I would say he has about 3-4 fights left.

samevans1 wrote:Won't put Mayweather or Pacquiao in a thread as I want fun, knowledgeable debate.

For the same reasons I never comment on articles about Tyson!

Your points are valid about Oscar-Rios; I watched him yesterday, so thought it might be fun! How doe you see De La Hoya-Marquez panning out?

Shouldnt ask me about Marquez, i am like D4 and pac. But to be honest i reckon he is generally old now. i not going to say he would lose but oscar was never the type to lose to old guys no matter how good they are.

azania wrote:

samevans1 wrote:Pascal, Taylor and Abraham are all top fighters.

Froch has beaten most of the top fighters he has faced. Watson lost to most of them.

the top fighters Watson lost to (Cook exception) would have beaten the best of today. Taylor was ko'd 3 times before Froch finished him. And KO'd very badly also. Pascal was a good win but Eubank takes Pascal and Benn KO's him as he leaves his chin hanging out to be hit. AA is an average boxer and not strong enough for SMW.

I dont recall taylor being k'od 3 times prior to froch azania

Youarethegreatest wrote:

azania wrote:

samevans1 wrote:Pascal, Taylor and Abraham are all top fighters.

Froch has beaten most of the top fighters he has faced. Watson lost to most of them.

the top fighters Watson lost to (Cook exception) would have beaten the best of today. Taylor was ko'd 3 times before Froch finished him. And KO'd very badly also. Pascal was a good win but Eubank takes Pascal and Benn KO's him as he leaves his chin hanging out to be hit. AA is an average boxer and not strong enough for SMW.

I dont recall taylor being k'od 3 times prior to froch azania

I cant access boxingrec here, so can someone post Taylor's record to see if AA knocked him out after Froch or before.

samevans1 wrote:After Froch mate.

You sure?

Absolutely certain. Froch's first defense of his belt was Taylor. It was before the Super Six.

Abraham stopped Taylor in the first fight of the Super Six.

azania wrote:

samevans1 wrote:After Froch mate.

You sure?

Frochs first Mandatory was taylor. The first night of the super six was taylor-Abraham in germany followed by Frochs second title defence aganest dirrell.

Taylor retired after the Abraham fight.

boxer: Jermain Taylor
Global ID 31056
suspensions

report
sex male
birth date 1978-08-11
division middleweight
stance orthodox
height 6′ 1″ / 185cm
reach 74½″ / 189cm
US ID 060277
alias Bad Intentions
country United States
residence Little Rock, Arkansas, United States
birth place Little Rock, Arkansas, United States
won 28 (KO 17) + lost 4 (KO 3) + drawn 1 = 33
rounds boxed 234 KO% 51.52

biography

bouts
Lb St Kg | ↑date↓ | ratings off on

|

print

date Lb opponent Lb W-L-D last 6 location

2009-10-17 166¼ Arthur Abraham 168 30-0-0

O2 World Arena, Kreuzberg, Berlin, Germany L KO 12 12

time: 2:54 | referee: Jose Guadalupe Garcia | judge: Guido Cavalleri 102-107 | judge: Stanley Christodoulou 103-105 | judge: Craig Metcalfe 102-106


2009-04-25 166 Carl Froch 167 24-0-0

Foxwoods Resort, Mashantucket, Connecticut, United States L TKO 12 12

time: 2:46 | referee: Mike Ortega | judge: Nobuaki Uratani 106-102 | judge: Omar Mintun 106-102 | judge: Jack Woodburn 102-106
WBC super middleweight title
Froch down in Round 3. Taylor down in Round 12.


2008-11-15 167½ Jeff Lacy 167¼ 24-1-0

Vanderbilt University Memorial Gymnasium, Nashville, Tennessee, United States W UD 12 12

referee: Laurence Cole | judge: Joseph Pasquale 118-110 | judge: Oren Shellenberger 119-109 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 119-109
WBC Super Middleweight Title Eliminator


2008-02-16 164 Kelly Pavlik 164 32-0-0

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States L UD 12 12

referee: Tony Weeks | judge: Glenn Trowbridge 112-116 | judge: Dave Moretti 111-117 | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 113-115


2007-09-29 159 Kelly Pavlik 159½ 31-0-0

Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City, New Jersey, United States L TKO 7 12

time: 2:14 | referee: Steve Smoger | judge: Julie Lederman 59-54 | judge: Guido Cavalleri 58-55 | judge: John Stewart 58-55
WBC middleweight title
WBO middleweight title


2007-05-19 159¾ Cory Spinks 159¾ 36-3-0

FedEx Forum, Memphis, Tennessee, United States W SD 12 12

referee: Mike Ortega | judge: Dick Flaherty 111-117 | judge: Michael Pernick 115-113 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 117-111
WBC middleweight title
WBO middleweight title


2006-12-09 159½ Kassim Ouma 158¾ 25-2-1

Alltel Arena, North Little Rock, Arkansas, United States W UD 12 12

referee: Frank Garza | judge: Jack Woodburn 118-110 | judge: Tom Kaczmarek 117-111 | judge: Sergio Silvi 115-113
WBC middleweight title
WBO middleweight title


2006-06-17 160 Ronald Wright 159¼ 50-3-0

FedEx Forum, Memphis, Tennessee, United States D PTS 12 12

referee: Frank Garza | judge: Chuck Giampa 115-113 | judge: Ray Hawkins 113-115 | judge: Melvina Lathan 114-114
WBC middleweight title
WBO middleweight title


2005-12-03 159 Bernard Hopkins 160 46-3-1

Mandalay Bay Resort & Casino, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W UD 12 12

referee: Jay Nady | judge: Dave Moretti 115-113 | judge: Chuck Giampa 115-113 | judge: Patricia Morse Jarman 115-113
WBC middleweight title
WBA Super World middleweight title
WBO middleweight title


2005-07-16 160 Bernard Hopkins 160 46-2-1

MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W SD 12 12

referee: Jay Nady | judge: Duane Ford 115-113 | judge: Jerry Roth 112-116 | judge: Paul Smith 115-113
WBA Super World middleweight title (supervisor: George Martinez)
WBC middleweight title
IBF middleweight title
WBO middleweight title


2005-02-19 161 Daniel Edouard 162 16-0-2

Staples Center, Los Angeles, California, United States W TKO 3 10

time: 2:26 | referee: Ray Corona | judge: Raul Caiz Sr | judge: Marty Denkin | judge: Lou Moret


2004-12-04 160½ William Joppy 159½ 34-3-1

Barton Coliseum, Little Rock, Arkansas, United States W UD 12 12

referee: Bill Clancy | judge: David Harris 120-107 | judge: Russell Naquin 120-107 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 120-107
WBC Continental Americas middleweight title


2004-06-19 160 Raul Marquez 159½ 35-2-0

Home Depot Center, Carson, California, United States W TKO 9 12

referee: Jack Reiss | judge: Jose Cobian | judge: Tony Crebs | judge: Lou Filippo
WBC Continental Americas middleweight title
Corner retirement~Marquez down in round nine.


2004-03-27 159¾ Alex Bunema 158¾ 24-3-2

Alltell Arena, Little Rock, Arkansas, United States

imperialghosty wrote:Was just about to point that out, he was KO'd by Pavlik who would make Watson look like a small Super Middleweight

Well seeing as Pascal has never been stopped I can't see how you come to conclusion that Benn who wasn't a massive puncher at Super Middleweight stops him

Eubank, Watson and Benn were good they weren't great, I imagine that when all is said and done that Froch will be a borderline top ten british fight while Eubank and Benn are around the lower reaches of a top 20.

I flatly disagree. Froch is good and exciting. But the top 10 back then beats the top 10 today. With the exception of Ward, the current top 10 is decidely average. An ancient Johnson giving the current top 10 a run for their money says it all really. He aint no Bhop. Benn, Watson and Eubank beats them all with the exception of Ward who imo will be an ATG.

Cheers Sam

I stand corrected. But my point still stands. He was KO's by an average MW and lost on points to him. Then he rose up in weight and got ko'd by Froch after winning most of the rounds. Eubank et al ko him forme.

We aren't going to agree on this mate; I respect you for stsicking up for Watson as you obviously like him.

But equally, I am something of a fan of Froch. I believe he is a level beyond Watson and is at worst even money with Eubank and Benn.

samevans1 wrote:We aren't going to agree on this mate; I respect you for stsicking up for Watson as you obviously like him.

But equally, I am something of a fan of Froch. I believe he is a level beyond Watson and is at worst even money with Eubank and Benn.

I dont see how you can insinuate that Benn is a level above Watson seeing as Mike schooled him in their fight. And seeing how Mike was robbed against Eubank in their first fight, for me it stands to reason that Mike beats Froch. Dont get me wrong, I like Froch and his attitude in wanting to fight the best (unlike Calzaghe), but the three mentioned would have beaten him. Also they would have foight as Carl actively sought the best fights out there.

Well, Benn over the course of his career certainly achieved more than Watson.

Styles make fights and I suppose Watson may just have had Benn's number.

samevans1 wrote:Well, Benn over the course of his career certainly achieved more than Watson.

Styles make fights and I suppose Watson may just have had Benn's number.

Evidently seeing how Watson's career was cut short. Also Watson won a huge legal battle regarding manager/promoter contracts against Mickey Duff which sidelined him for 12 months prior to the McCallum fight. His acreer was unfulfilled interms of fighting, but what he did for boxing in the UK will always be remembered by boxers.

Watson would have beaten Froch in a barnstormer but beaten him by a wide UD. He was just too skilled.

We are not gonna agree here mate. Good debate though.

Maybe I will go back and watch some Watson now; it's been a while.

samevans1 wrote:Maybe I will go back and watch some Watson now; it's been a while.

Watch his fights with Don Lee (expected to KO Mike easily), Benn, Eubank 1 and 2. He was an exceptional fighter, athlete and man.

Look at his defence and countering against Benn. A work of art. Totally schooled Don Lee who was world ranked in the top 5 when they fought and Watson was considered 3 in the UK.

Never seen the Don Lee fight. Might check that one out if I can find it where I live.

samevans1 wrote:Never seen the Don Lee fight. Might check that one out if I can find it where I live.

That's the fight that brought him to public recognition. But still many bought into the Benn hype when they fought making Benn an odds on favourite and many expecting a first round ko. No-one expected to see an unheralded Watson literally give Benn a boxing lesson. The after party was even better.

If i can find it, I will certainly check it out.

Always willing to broaden my horizons.

You are rating Watson far too highly, between the three of them they beat nobody of any real not and i'll repeat they are famous for fighting eachother. When you don't fight the best there is no way of determining how good they may have been whereas Froch has beaten the best.

The Super Middleweight was stronger in the 90's but seeing as none of the british lot fought them it's not a point you really want to bring up.

imperialghosty wrote:You are rating Watson far too highly, between the three of them they beat nobody of any real not and i'll repeat they are famous for fighting eachother. When you don't fight the best there is no way of determining how good they may have been whereas Froch has beaten the best.

The Super Middleweight was stronger in the 90's but seeing as none of the british lot fought them it's not a point you really want to bring up.

Froch hasn't beaten the best seeing as he lost to kessler and has yet to fight Ward. Whether or not I rate the 90s UK fighters too highly is not the point. My point is that all 3 of them would have beaten Froch.

Your saying it in far too much of a matter of fact way, you haven't really given any reasons why they beat him other than saying Watson could brawl or punch, well as shown against Abraham Froch can do that to.

With his work rate and chin, I can see Froch outworking Eubank behind his jab getting caught with the occassional big shot but Eubank wasn't known for picking up the pace and struggled when his opponent did.

Benn had the heart of a lion but was susceptible to be knocking down and Froch holds the strength and Chin advantage in that one, it would be a war but Froch would be able to dictate the action more behind his snappy jab. A close tear up but can see Benn having to rise off the canvas at some point and that could be the deciding factor, he more so than Eubank was vulnerable against boxers and would most likely lose tp Dirrell. He used to get frustrated when things weren't going his way and became far too erratic, against such a quick elusive boxer like Dirrell that's suicide.

Watson for me doesn't have that X factor to his game and he doesn't possess the power to really worry Froch and doesn't have the skill of Taylor or Dirrell to frustrate him into making mistakes, if it came to a tear up then I can't see Watson living with the naturally stronger Froch.

All 3 of them liked a tear up and this simply plays into the hands of Froch who's chin gets him out of trouble time and time again, Benn and Eubank both had power at Middleweight but they weren't devestating punchers at 168lbs.

imperialghosty wrote:Your saying it in far too much of a matter of fact way, you haven't really given any reasons why they beat him other than saying Watson could brawl or punch, well as shown against Abraham Froch can do that to.

With his work rate and chin, I can see Froch outworking Eubank behind his jab getting caught with the occassional big shot but Eubank wasn't known for picking up the pace and struggled when his opponent did.

Benn had the heart of a lion but was susceptible to be knocking down and Froch holds the strength and Chin advantage in that one, it would be a war but Froch would be able to dictate the action more behind his snappy jab. A close tear up but can see Benn having to rise off the canvas at some point and that could be the deciding factor, he more so than Eubank was vulnerable against boxers and would most likely lose tp Dirrell. He used to get frustrated when things weren't going his way and became far too erratic, against such a quick elusive boxer like Dirrell that's suicide.

Watson for me doesn't have that X factor to his game and he doesn't possess the power to really worry Froch and doesn't have the skill of Taylor or Dirrell to frustrate him into making mistakes, if it came to a tear up then I can't see Watson living with the naturally stronger Froch.

All 3 of them liked a tear up and this simply plays into the hands of Froch who's chin gets him out of trouble time and time again, Benn and Eubank both had power at Middleweight but they weren't devestating punchers at 168lbs.

Froch has had to climb off the canvass also. And yes he does enjoy a tear up. He relies far too much on his punch resistance which would have ben exploited by all 3. Watson for me was the most complete of the 3 (and that is without bias). Of all the 3, he would have the easiest night against Froch because of Froch's style. Yes he would give Eubank problems, but Chris new how to play the judges game. and Eubank was a big hitter at SMW. The Watson fight cost him his killer instinct as displayed during the Collins fight.

Froch would be too slow for Benn and in a tear up, Benn would get him through sheer volume of big punches. If ascal could nail froch, god help him if Benn had landed as frequently as Pascal did.

You fail to grasp the fact your basing what they did at Middleweight on how they'd do against Froch, Benn didn't put away any quality operators at 168lbs and i'd suggest he had less power than Pascal did at the weight. Anyone who can put down Hopkins is a pretty big puncher.

Chris would be fighting someone on equal terms so is very unlikely to get the benefit of the doubt against a more active Froch.

imperialghosty wrote:You fail to grasp the fact your basing what they did at Middleweight on how they'd do against Froch, Benn didn't put away any quality operators at 168lbs and i'd suggest he had less power than Pascal did at the weight. Anyone who can put down Hopkins is a pretty big puncher.

Chris would be fighting someone on equal terms so is very unlikely to get the benefit of the doubt against a more active Froch.

I cant for the life of me see how anyone can claim McLellan was not a quality operator or Iran Barkley or even Doug DeWit who had an iron chin. As for putting Hopkins down, Bhop was a natural MW and Pascal is a LHW. 15lb difference. Barkley and DeWit may have been at MW but if you can use Bhop as an example, the same rules applies.

Froch has not forght anyone in the calibre of McLellan or of the other 3.

Are you trying to compare Hopkins to Barkley and De Witt who were both decidedly average and again were at Middleweight. Hopkins has been competing at 175lbs for years now

I think the less we say about the Mclellan fight the better really, he was dangerously weight drained going into that fight and it's very early that something was wrong with him. De Witt himself had been stopped before Benn and as soon as stepped up to any sort of level he lost.

imperialghosty wrote:Are you trying to compare Hopkins to Barkley and De Witt who were both decidedly average and again were at Middleweight. Hopkins has been competing at 175lbs for years now

I think the less we say about the Mclellan fight the better really, he was dangerously weight drained going into that fight and it's very early that something was wrong with him. De Witt himself had been stopped before Benn and as soon as stepped up to any sort of level he lost.

Who has BHop fought at LHW? He is a career MW and only after losing to Taylor (close and very disputed) moved up to LHW. Furthermore a chin is a chin. Hit right they go regardless of whose chin it is. Plus in no way is Bhop a natural LHW.

Yes GM was drained. But he still would have beaten any of today's fighters relatively easily imo.

A very average Kessler beat Froch. Dirrell who would have been an also ran, ran hin very close. Pascal should have lost the decision against Bhop. AA is a very small SMW who was shown up for who he is. Taylor made him look good.

Your being very harsh on Kessler and Dirrell just to prove a point that you can't prove with any sort of analysis. In no way are either average and I see your point about Abraham but who exactly did Eubank, Benn or Watson beat to be held in such high esteem.

Mclellan may have blasted them out in a couple of rounds but after that he was suffering brain aneurysms mid fight so in that condition I can't see him beating anyone easily.

Hopkins has fought the best the Light Heavyweight division has to offer and even at that weight and age would have had far too much for any of the people previously mentioned. If we're talking about disputed decisions what about Eubanks very dodgy decisions against below average opposition.

You need to start assessing both sides instead of making your mind up and insulting boxers abilities to back up your opinion, something you seem to quite often. With the benefit of 15 years extra modern techniques can't see how Froch loses, I could say.

Hopkins has beaten Tarver at LHW; a very good fighter. Hopkins is also well over 6ft tall and fought at SMW many times early in his career. He is a huge Middleweight and probably naturally a LHW.

imperialghosty wrote:Your being very harsh on Kessler and Dirrell just to prove a point that you can't prove with any sort of analysis. In no way are either average and I see your point about Abraham but who exactly did Eubank, Benn or Watson beat to be held in such high esteem.

Mclellan may have blasted them out in a couple of rounds but after that he was suffering brain aneurysms mid fight so in that condition I can't see him beating anyone easily.

Hopkins has fought the best the Light Heavyweight division has to offer and even at that weight and age would have had far too much for any of the people previously mentioned. If we're talking about disputed decisions what about Eubanks very dodgy decisions against below average opposition.

You need to start assessing both sides instead of making your mind up and insulting boxers abilities to back up your opinion, something you seem to quite often. With the benefit of 15 years extra modern techniques can't see how Froch loses, I could say.

I may sound harsh on Kessler and Dirrell because I dont rate them very highly. Ward I rate and believe he would have beaten all 3 by wide UD, knocking out Benn.

Bhop would have beaten all 3 also imo (not the Bhop of today but the Bhop of 10-15 years ago). The simple reason behind my claim is because I dont believe Dirrell hit hard enough to trouble either Eubank or Watson, especially Watson who was more varied in his skills that Eubank who hated "runners". He would trouble Benn with his speed but he didn't have the punch power and I dont believe the heart for a fighter like Benn.

Kessler would have been made for Eubank. Calzaghe showed how easily he could be outboxed midway through their fight. Watson would be too busy for him and coupled with the volume of punches he threw would score a wide UD.

I have already discussed by they all beat Froch so I wont repeat myself.

Seeing as how you've yet to really say anything that makes sense we'll have to agree to disagree

imperialghosty wrote:Seeing as how you've yet to really say anything that makes sense we'll have to agree to disagree

You mean seeing as we dont agree.