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Could Euro 2012 Be The Beginning?

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The Special Juan
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Post by legendkillar Mon 03 Oct 2011, 10:19 am

I had a conversation with my brother yesterday and we discussed England and their current position. For once he was impressed with what I said.

Post World Cup 2010, I felt the following should have happened:

Lampard, Terry and Ferdinand should have been disposed with or retired from International duty. Loss of form and especially injuries in the case of Ferdinand should be the tell tell sign of past glories. Scholes and Shearer to name but 2 who knew when to call quits. Both these players enjoyed longevity and great club form into their 30's. Lampard and Terry both have ambitions of Champions League success and should retire from International Duty to give themselves a chance of success. For Ferdinand? Maybe a season without injury would be an accomplishment in itself.

Rooney should've been made skipper after the World Cup. Granted he had a poor tournament, but is the only name that is a guarantee on the team sheet.

But back to the point of my thread. Since the World Cup we have seen a glimmer. I have anyhow. Young, Wilshere, Hart, for me have been impressive. I have seen threads on here of where is the talent? Look at Germany post Euro 2004. World Cup 2006 saw the beginning of Klinsmann's and Low's plans and the fruit of it bloomed at the World Cup 2010. This could the same for England. Let me list what I think would be an impressive 11 at the opening game of Euro 2012.

Hart

Smalling
Jones
Jagielka
Cole

Young
Gerrard
Parker
Wilshere
Johnson

Rooney

To me that is a mix of experience and youth that for me has the talent to scare even the bigger nations. That is even without including the likes of Allbrighton, Sturridge, Walcott, Walker, Henderson, Carroll, Rodwell, Coleman, Mancienne, Gibbs, Dann.

See for me Euro 2012 is a stepping stone. England can still retain the likes of Cole, Gerrard, Parker, Rooney for the World Cup in 2014. I am not sating England can't win Euro 2012, because they can. Besides Spain, Germany and Holland they have a good chance.

As an England fan I say let's not panic. The future is not bleak. Yes we have had the days of the 'Golden Generation' but I think this generation might have more to offer. Especially with Harry picks up the reigns post Euro 2012.

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Post by Crimey Mon 03 Oct 2011, 5:12 pm

The only problem is, if you look at the past 11, from the 'Golden Generation' around Euro 2004 we had:

James

G. Neville
J. Terry
R. Ferdinand
A. Cole

Beckham
Gerrard
Lampard
J. Cole

Rooney
Owen

That is clearly a strong side, which on paper alone should have been challenging the top international sides, but seemed to falter. The team you have up there, is probably equal in terms of individual talent to the side I have just posted, so I wouldn't be too optimistic.

On the other hand, being positive; I think we should be aiming high in the Euros, like you said; Spain, Germany and Holland are the teams we will want to avoid, but any other sides I would fancy our chances. At the World Cup, we shouldn't expect too much though, even if, in some freak way, we ended up winning the Euros, I would still be happy with quarter finals at the World Cup, as I believe that is a realistic level for us.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 03 Oct 2011, 5:21 pm

I think we have a better side that South Africa 2010 and with a favourable draw we may get to the Semis. If we're lucky and Rooney hits a purple patch plus Capello gets the tactics and formation we may make it a summer to remember.

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Post by monty junior Mon 03 Oct 2011, 5:26 pm

I doubt it, i think Germany and Spain are comfortably better. With Netherlands, Italy, France (who lets not forget easily disposed of England recently) and Portugal are all atleast on par. A chance to do well for sure, but outside the UK i doubt anyone expects anything more than the quarters from England.

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Post by legendkillar Mon 03 Oct 2011, 5:35 pm

invincibleILeak (CL-6WF) wrote:The only problem is, if you look at the past 11, from the 'Golden Generation' around Euro 2004 we had:

James

G. Neville
J. Terry
R. Ferdinand
A. Cole

Beckham
Gerrard
Lampard
J. Cole

Rooney
Owen

That is clearly a strong side, which on paper alone should have been challenging the top international sides, but seemed to falter. The team you have up there, is probably equal in terms of individual talent to the side I have just posted, so I wouldn't be too optimistic.

On the other hand, being positive; I think we should be aiming high in the Euros, like you said; Spain, Germany and Holland are the teams we will want to avoid, but any other sides I would fancy our chances. At the World Cup, we shouldn't expect too much though, even if, in some freak way, we ended up winning the Euros, I would still be happy with quarter finals at the World Cup, as I believe that is a realistic level for us.

For me the side at Euro 2004 would've won the tournament had Rooney not injured himself, plus we didn't have Ferdinand as he was banned if you recall. That for me was the best chance of success since Euro 1996.

I don't think the 'Golden Generation' under-achieved. 2 World Cup Quarter Finals and Euro Quarter Finals. I think bad luck has been against them. Both matches against Portugal, Rooney injured and then at the World Cup 2006 Rooney sent off and Owen injured which left them with no strikeforce.

I think this squad has one thing going for them and that is peaking at the same time. If you take the previous squads where Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, Owen, J Cole, A Cole all peaked together, whereas with this squad Hart, Smalling, Jones, Jagielka, Johnson, Young, Wilshere, Rooney can all peak at the same time. That is a wonderful thought.

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Post by Alessandro Ciambella Thu 06 Oct 2011, 11:35 am

Bonjourno!

England will not win anything at international level for at least another 12 years. Capello has been in the job for what seems an eternity and he still does not know what his best 11 is.

Even more annoyingly, when he first signed for England he said he would only pick in form players. That worked. Last season when Rooney was off the boil for club and country he continued to pick him. Why does he never give a start to Darren Bent and what the hell has John Terry got to do to get dropped. He is a liability.

AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ABOUT GARETH BARRY! furious

As long as this numpty is in charge England don’t have a chance. Spain and Brazil will continue to dominate International football for many years to come. England’s method of kick and rush football will see them get through the group stages at best.

I'm sure in 12 years time we will still see Lampard and Gerrard knocking around the squad because managers are petrified to drop them due to commercial commitments.

England needs to get a grip of reality and change its whole football philosophy on how we play and promote the game. Plus we need to export more talent abroad.

Forza Italy!

Forza Roberto Baggio!
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Post by ian_jamsie Thu 06 Oct 2011, 1:00 pm

Smalling was badley out of position at right back against Wales. I'd go with Richards.

Rooney up front on his own doesn't work. He forgets his resposibilities, drops deep and pulls the whole team out of position.

With Wellbeck, Sturidge, Bent and Agbonlahor. There is no need for him to play that role.

If you have Wilshire you could avoid Parker.

Barry has been very good for Man City this year, but he has been supported by Silva.

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Post by super_realist Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:25 am

Of course it won't be the beginning. England could have the 11 best players in the world and they'd still fail.
As many have alluded to in other threads the problem is largely due to England players lacking basic skills, imagination, patience, tactics, and above all a team ethic, then you have the problem of a style not suited to international football and the media blowing smoke up the backside of what are actually fairly average players on the whole.

The sense of reality is something that England have also never really got a grasp on. At best they might just scrape into the worlds top 12 teams. They really need to consolidate a position in the "real" top 8 (not the phoney rankings) before talking about winning tournaments.

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Post by The Special Juan Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:49 am

Where's Baines? Great player.
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Post by Smirnoffpriest Fri 07 Oct 2011, 12:05 pm

Well said Super_Realist - the sooner England realise that Quarter is a realistic target the better. Then they can start developing technically skilled players and slowly bring through talented youngsters without slating them and destroying their confidence in the press because they haven't single-handedly beaten a Top nation before they've turned 22.
They are not a Top 8 Nation yet, but could be they just need to become more realistic (and when I say them, I mean the press and fans more than anyone), so they don't sack managers every 2/4 years and don't start building players up to be the next 'white pele' when they blatantly aren't and saying they're undroppable - before deciding that they should never where the 3 lions ever again.

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Post by legendkillar Fri 07 Oct 2011, 9:30 pm

Quite amusing how a Taff and a Jock think England have no ethic? Considering the players play in the most physical league in the world.

Like I said it's a beginning because the squad from 2010 will be much different to the one in 2012.

Not a top 8 side? Well name 8 sides better?

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Post by AberdeenSteve Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:18 pm

legendkillar wrote:Quite amusing how a Taff and a Jock think England have no ethic? Considering the players play in the most physical league in the world.

Like I said it's a beginning because the squad from 2010 will be much different to the one in 2012.

Not a top 8 side? Well name 8 sides better?

Brazil
Argentina
Spain
Uruguay
Italy
Holland
Germany
France

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Post by ADMIN Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:22 pm

AberdeenSteve wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Quite amusing how a Taff and a Jock think England have no ethic? Considering the players play in the most physical league in the world.

Like I said it's a beginning because the squad from 2010 will be much different to the one in 2012.

Not a top 8 side? Well name 8 sides better?

Brazil
Argentina
Spain
Uruguay
Italy
Holland
Germany
France

On tonight's effort add Montenegro, that football giant with a population a third of N.Ireland.

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Post by legendkillar Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:28 pm

AberdeenSteve wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Quite amusing how a Taff and a Jock think England have no ethic? Considering the players play in the most physical league in the world.

Like I said it's a beginning because the squad from 2010 will be much different to the one in 2012.

Not a top 8 side? Well name 8 sides better?

Brazil
Argentina
Spain
Uruguay
Italy
Holland
Germany
France

France, Uruguay and Italy???

Laugh


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Post by AberdeenSteve Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:33 pm

Uruguay; World Cup Finalists and current Copa America Holders.

France; Ok, they declined but have picked themselves up well and are currently top of their Euro qualifying group.

Italy; Same as above.

And like Hero said, you were just held to a 2-2 draw by a nation whose population to yours is 1000-1. Ouch.

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Post by legendkillar Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:38 pm

AberdeenSteve wrote:Uruguay; World Cup Finalists and current Copa America Holders.

France; Ok, they declined but have picked themselves up well and are currently top of their Euro qualifying group.

Italy; Same as above.

And like Hero said, you were just held to a 2-2 draw by a nation whose population to yours is 1000-1. Ouch.

World Cup finalists like 50 years ago.

France no longer the force they were.

Italy same as above.

A draw is not a defeat. No please in some people.

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Post by AberdeenSteve Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:41 pm

That was supposed to say semi finalists, woops Laugh

They may not be the force they once were but would probably still beat England in the state they are currently in.

It may have well been a defeat though, you just threw a 2 goal lead away and against a side who you should be comfortably beating.

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Post by legendkillar Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:42 pm

England top their group without a defeat and France have lost a game and yet that is your argument for them being better?

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Post by ADMIN Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:44 pm

Uruguay are a quality team and would run rings around England at present.
France although they had a mare at the World Cup are now starting to get it together as they've brought through the next gen, Italy again aren't the dominant force they were but I'd still rate them to beat us.
Oh and you missed Portugal on that list.



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Post by AberdeenSteve Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:45 pm

Looking at the groups though, you'd 'expect' a nation like England to battering everyone of those teams but France had tricky ties to Bosnia & Belarus and we all know how teams struggle out there.

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Post by legendkillar Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:54 pm

Sorry Hero I disagree there. Couldn't see either Uruguay, France or Italy beating us. Italy couldn't beat New Zealand!

Steve while I agree that trips to Bosnia and Belarus can be tricky, I am not one to expect England to batter teams ranked below them. If games were won on paper then yes England should, but it doesn't mean they will. A draw is not a defeat. An unbeaten campaign and people still not happy. What I don't want to see is a repeat of the World Cup!

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Post by AberdeenSteve Fri 07 Oct 2011, 10:59 pm

I can understand your point with France and Italy maybe carrying less of a threat to beating England but have you seen Uruguay lately? I am pretty much 100% certain they'd beat England at this present time.

I only see one thing and one thing only happening at Euro 2012, England failing to make an impact. Like previous posts have stated, there seems to be absolutely no form of team ethic amongst the English team mates and no manager will ever set that straight. Far too many egos in one dressing room as far as I am concerned and that is why you continually bottle it.

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Post by legendkillar Fri 07 Oct 2011, 11:06 pm

I don't know about bottling. That World Cup was the worst for body language I had ever seen. A lot was built on how Rooney would lay a marker and when he was misfiring, they looked dumbfounded. The inclusion of Heskey and King still baffles me to this day.

I think England need to think like a team and play to strengths. Argentina did the same at the World Cup. Messi played poorly because of expectation.

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Post by Smirnoffpriest Fri 07 Oct 2011, 11:30 pm

I disagree about england bottling it (well mayb this game) as I think they reach an appropriate and realistic level at the last few tournaments. They do seem to lack cohesion,but so do wales and scotland - it could b the lil time the teams have together or the pressure (by the media) they r put under. But they should b beatin teams that are a lot lower down the rankins and should start droppin rooney when he isnt performin so they can develop a different plan

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Post by super_realist Sat 08 Oct 2011, 9:20 am

Italy couldn't beat beat new Zealand but look at englands results in the same competition.
It always makes me laugh when they talk about a new crop coming through as if that will take them to the top, yet they fail to realise that every other country also has players coming through at least as good, and certainly better in their attitude to international football. So England are only ever going to stand still in footballing terms.

I think you can also add Portugal, Serbia and possibly even Croatia as teams that England would struggle to beat. Sweden also as they haven't beaten them in over 50 years, and despite their lack of individual talent play as a cohesive unit and have at least a good a record in international football in the last 20 years. Russia, turkey, Greece and Ghana would all probably cause you serious problems too.
They are nowhere near top 8, and you should take a leaf out if the sweaties book and just accept you are gash.

Actually, I think England would be far more effective if they selected a team solely frm the championship, you'd get more committed players, fewer big time Charlie's and a better work ethic

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Post by monty junior Sat 08 Oct 2011, 11:08 am

legendkillar wrote:
AberdeenSteve wrote:
legendkillar wrote:Quite amusing how a Taff and a Jock think England have no ethic? Considering the players play in the most physical league in the world.

Like I said it's a beginning because the squad from 2010 will be much different to the one in 2012.

Not a top 8 side? Well name 8 sides better?

Brazil
Argentina
Spain
Uruguay
Italy
Holland
Germany
France

France, Uruguay and Italy???

Laugh


Didn't France completely outplay and beat England at Wembley last year? also Uruguay i would take for sure, copa america champions and world cup semi finalists.

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Post by Crimey Sat 08 Oct 2011, 11:18 am

And any front line that is Forlan-Suarez-Cavani must be terrifying.

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Post by Guest Sat 08 Oct 2011, 2:06 pm

With games against Portugal, Spain and Holland before the Euros I think we'll get a little measure of where we can consider ourselves. Depending on the squad, I'd be happy with a quarters place next summer. Just hope Capello doesn't persist with Jones at right back, not when we have Richards, Walker, possibly Smalling and maybe Kelly all playing alright.

As for last nights game, we played a weakened Montenegro side and went down to 10 men. We knew that a point would be enough to see us through, so would the team have had a different mindset if this game was two or three fixtures earlier?

With some of the older players being phased out, or injured and missing out, it's going to be a big season for them as well. Terry looks a cert to be starting centre back and has started better than Jagielka and Cahill. Lampard and Gerrard will be wanting to have one last hurrah with the national team, and Gerrard could be key to play off a striker at the start of the tournament.

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Post by Crimey Sat 08 Oct 2011, 2:18 pm

I agree with you that it makes no sense to start Phil Jones at right back when we have a lot of talented young right backs pushing through at the moment, with even Glen Johnson yet to return from injury. Saying that, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jones actually snatch the centre back spot, and I do think he has a good shout if Cahill continues to play for Bolton who are leaking goals. I bet Cahill really wishes he had left in the summer now.

I do think you're right Churchill, that we would have fought for it more if we needed it. But I want to see the team fight anyway, not to roll over like they did last night. Just like at the World Cup we gave up after a bit against Germany, you have to fight to the final whistle no matter what, you never know whether they'll slip up and give you a route back into the game.

I think Terry will be one of the first names down on the team sheet, while I'm not his biggest fan, I think if we're going to build a foundation, he has to be a part of it as captain. Even though I think he's an excellent player, Gerrard has to prove his fitness first and then prove he's good enough to get back into the England first XI, if he's fit, no matter what he should be in the squad, as of all the players England have you would probably bet on a Gerrard to be able to turn around a game coming off of the bench, his place in the first XI has to depend on how he performs for Liverpool this year. I just hope by the time Euro 2012 comes around, Barry is no longer in the first eleven, when we have Parker in the team to break up opposition attacks and begin our own attacks, Barry just simply isn't needed.

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Post by Riggs Sat 04 Feb 2012, 5:36 pm

I'll say this: only the boys can show we can by doing it. With the skill on show I certainly hope that the FA focus ALL of their efforts on SKILLED YOUTH otherwise we're buggered.

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Post by Riggs Thu 17 May 2012, 7:24 pm

I hear what you're saying and I would like to remind people of St Georges Park.

I think that this is a moment where "change" is actually good and, in places, necessary.

I've hope for England & GB so the fa/s shouldn't complain nor worry.

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