Should Pacquiao Be Recognised As a LMW Champion?

First topic message reminder :

The WBC light middleweight title will be on the line in the fight between Saul Alvarez and Matt Hatton. That in itself is a joke, given that Hatton is the euro welterweight champ, and the issue is an entirely different bone of contention. 

But what it does mean is that Manny Pacquiao has vacated the WBC LMW title after holding it for about 100 days or less. The question is, should history recognise manny as a LMW champion? As much as I like him, I'm inclined to say definitely not, for the following reasons: 

1) He won the title against an unranked, inactive fighter who had only fought twice at 154lb in 8 years. 

2) The fight was made at a catchweight of 151lb. 

3) Manny vacated the title after holding it for 3 months without ever defending it. 

4) Manny has never and will never fight within the full 154lb limits of the LMW weight class. Mannys own people state that he cannot fight at full 154lb hence his return to welter. 

Can he really be recognised as a legitimate light middleweight champion? Definitely not. The whole thing was a farce, with Top Rank offering margarito as the sacrificial lamb to help their cash cow claim a cheap piece of history, and the increasingly ridiculous WBC trying to get in on the act by devaluing their title and offering it as a trinket to the high profile fighter,  despite their being more deserving contenders in the rankings. 

I have split this thread back into its own entity. There may be the odd post that WAS meant for the Manny/Floyd thread (it isn't an exact science!). If you come across any please let the mods know and they can be moved to the correct thread.

As King Beer said on the new thread, if this descends into a Floyd v Manny argument the merge will be put back in place.

If they give the title away with a Big Mac, that makes that person the world title holder until the WBC is no longer recognised.
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We'll have to agree to disagree Scott, for me it was a catchweight fight and so whilst a belt was given I personally will choose not to recognise but as you rightly say unfortunately the history books will choose to disagree I fear. However the possibility of belts being handed out with Big Macs should be good news for James Toney

Stop being a WUM, Rowley. Haven't you seen Toney's interview after his second bout with McCallum? He's a Burger King man!

rowley wrote: However the possibility of belts being handed out with Big Macs should be good news for James Toney

Think Solis is vacating his title. Rumour has it that he's lost 30 pounds since his last fight.

Scottrf wrote:Denying him the LMW title is akin to saying you don't believe Hamilton to be the F1 world champion because you don't agree with a stewards verdict. Yes, we know it's a farce but he won the WBC LMW title.

Maybe England never won the world cup in 66 as well, or maybe all the winner on the 84 Olympics were not real winners since it was boycotted.

D4 would you be so quick to proclaim him a champion had Floyd won a light middle title in a catch weight fight?

to quote D4thincarnation:

"Maybe England never won the world cup in 66 as well, or maybe all the winner on the 84 Olympics were not real winners since it was boycotted."

TOTALLY DIFFERENT SPORTING EVENTS. Your bias is evident in nigh-on everything you post. Did England win the '66 World Cup against a team who weren't really deserving of their place in the final, and who were forced through threat of financial penalty to field less than eleven players? No. Stop talking out of your bum for once, D4.

Pacquiao's world title at LMW was absolute pony; nobody can argue otherwise.

We all know this and it can't really be argued the other way. By any sane individual...

samevans1 wrote:Pacquiao's world title at LMW was absolute pony; nobody can argue otherwise.

We all know this and it can't really be argued the other way. By any sane individual...

Well, I didn't think any sane individual could argue against him winning it.

no he fought closer to welterweight than he did Lt-middleweight

You can use the common sense approach which should allow people to dismiss pure alphabet holders as bonafide "world champions" especially when there is an obvious champion at the weight.

Or you can use the strict approach in which every title must be recognised.

By the letter of the law Pacquaio was a WBC LMW champion so theres no getting around it. You cant remove it from the history books. However as with a great deal of current "world champions", their validity as champions can certianly be questioned.

If a fighter holds a world title, he is a world champion. There is no criteria for casting doubt on it. He just has to win a WBA belt/ WBC etc.

Margarito has been a welterweight champ for 8 years, ranked highly in that division for about a decade. Experience at LMW as well, if he moved up he would receive a high ranking. Like almost every other fighter, Lopez, Mosely, etc. Margarito is a legitimate opponent for a LMW title. If the divsion decides to rank him highly based on his prior experience, thats up to them.

There are no stipulations which state a fighter has to weigh in at the division maximum, its optional. Numeorus fighters regularly weigh under the limit.

Chris whilst you are right there is no stipulation a fighter has to weigh in at the limit the circumstances are different in this one. Margarito had stipulations in his contract which would have made it financially painful for him to weigh in above 151. Had these stipulations not existed and both fighters chose to weigh in at 151 that would be fine and nobody myself included would take issue with this.

However this was not the case in this fight. It was a catchweight fight, which is fine, they are as old as the hills but to have belts on the line when fighters cannot weigh in to the limit of that division devalues them totally.

archbritchris: There are no stipulations which state a fighter has to weigh in at the division maximum, its optional.
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It's only optional if you are given the option.

ArchBritishchris wrote:If a fighter holds a world title, he is a world champion. There is no criteria for casting doubt on it. He just has to win a WBA belt/ WBC etc.

Margarito has been a welterweight champ for 8 years, ranked highly in that division for about a decade. Experience at LMW as well, if he moved up he would receive a high ranking. Like almost every other fighter, Lopez, Mosely, etc. Margarito is a legitimate opponent for a LMW title. If the divsion decides to rank him highly based on his prior experience, thats up to them.

There are no stipulations which state a fighter has to weigh in at the division maximum, its optional. Numeorus fighters regularly weigh under the limit.

Weighing in comfortably under a division's limit, if that's your own prerogative, is fine. Enforcing that your opponent has to do the same should not be. I wouldn't have a problem with Pacquiao claiming the Light-Middleweight crown had Margarito had the freedom to weigh in as high as the Light-Middleweight limit, but he didn't.

Margarito wasn't even ranked at Welterweight let alone Light Middleweight so Chris tell me how he's a legitamet challenger for a title he has no ranking in?

The issue for me was having two unranked fighters fighting for the title and at a catchweight, it really devalues the worth of a world title. Instances like this always make me feel sorry for those who died chasing their dream, Johnny Owen didn't have the option of fighting for an alphabet title against a relative nobody.

imperialghosty wrote:Margarito wasn't even ranked at Welterweight let alone Light Middleweight so Chris tell me how he's a legitamet challenger for a title he has no ranking in?

The issue for me was having two unranked fighters fighting for the title and at a catchweight, it really devalues the worth of a world title. Instances like this always make me feel sorry for those who died chasing their dream, Johnny Owen didn't have the option of fighting for an alphabet title against a relative nobody.

Thats Boxing these days I suppose
I guess the fight was for the Light Light Middleweight Championship really

My take on this would centre on whether or not he's prepared to defend the title in a legitimate lightmiddle fight, as opposed to the means by which he gained the title.

History abounds with men who came by their titles by odd means - Marvin Hart, Lennox Lewis, etc. - so Manny's case isn't without precedent. However, if he fails to defend it in against a bona fide lightmiddle contender with no strings attached I believe that fight fans have every reason to regard his ' title ' as being bogus.

There is no ruling which states a title fight has to take place at the maximum limit. A title fight at any weight within the boundaries is legitimate. The fighters are allowed to negotiate on weights, as with many other issues. That was the agreed weight for both fighters at LMW, the competitors were happy with it. If both fighters agree I don't have a problem with it.

Boxing is still a tough sport, it doesn't matter what they weigh in at. Both Pacquiao and Margarito are experienced campaigners, with numerous fights under their belts, they've paid their dues in boxing. Marge and Pacquiao have been top fighters for the last 10 years, with about 12 world titles between them. I'd say a title fight between them is legitimate at almost any weight. An example would be Ward fighting Froch at LHW.

Margarito actually weighed more than most light-middles in the ring at 165lbs.

Chris stop talking such tripe, a title for the 154lb title should be held at 154lbs not below that, there's far too many weights as it without adding catchweights to it. A title fight between two unranked contenders is not legitimate at all regardless of what they've done at other weights, there were far more deserving boxers out there to fight for the title.

The more you have to rehydrate weakens you come fight night and being big means naff all

I would take issue with Pacquaio being declared champion in any divison where the championship has been hung, drawn and quartered.

Is winning a mere portion of a Championship sifficient recognition these days in the eyes of fans?

Pacquiao won but a fraction of the championship, at a "weight" that his opponent could not fight at before promptly dropping the belt instead of even defending it against a fully fledged Light Middle Weight.

If this fight was held back in the day and Marg had to weigh in on the day of the fight, Marg would have weighed less in the ring that he did do against Pacquiao.

imperialghosty wrote:Chris stop talking such tripe, a title for the 154lb title should be held at 154lbs not below that, there's far too many weights as it without adding catchweights to it. A title fight between two unranked contenders is not legitimate at all regardless of what they've done at other weights, there were far more deserving boxers out there to fight for the title.

The more you have to rehydrate weakens you come fight night and being big means naff all

A fighter can enter a bout below the weight limit if he so chooses. What irks me about the Pac/Marg farce was the stipulation of 151lbs for a LMW title. Boxers fight for money and to penalise a boxer for coming on bang on the weight limit of the belt they are fighting for renders that title worthless.

Also it's a very dangerous step to follow given the risks of dehydration and rapid weight loss on a fighter. Manny/Roach and Arum should hand their heads in shame and if anything were to have happened to marg, Roach et al should be sued.

D4thincarnation wrote:If this fight was held back in the day and Marg had to weigh in on the day of the fight, Marg would have weighed less in the ring that he did do against Pacquiao.

That's the way it should be, the way boxers manipulate the weigh ins so they can outweight opponents by huge amounts is ridiculous. If you have to drain yourself by a stone you shouldn't be fighting at that weight

D4thincarnation wrote:If this fight was held back in the day and Marg had to weigh in on the day of the fight, Marg would have weighed less in the ring that he did do against Pacquiao.

And if your mum had a set of cojones she'd be your dad. Talk sense.