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Sam Warburton Red Card

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:35 am

Good call from the ref a definite spear tackle. Has there been a more stupid piece of play this world cup?

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Post by walesworldcup Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:48 am

Irish Ref with a French father.

Looks like a great choice to ref this match!

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Post by fa0019 Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:50 am

It wasn't a definite spear. He l didn't drive him into the ground.... Warburton tackled the lightest player in the French team and probably was geared up to take on a forward.

He let go mid air after realising the mistake. It was the adrenaline if anything else.

The ref has a job to not only administer the match but to run the match as a spectacle.. this is one of the 3 biggest matches every 4 years, you have to run it with a little leniency.

It was a certain yellow thats for sure though but for me not a red.... in any game let alone a world cup semi final.

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Post by Knowsit17 Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:51 am

You see more dangerous tackles than that that don't even get a yellow, farcical decision.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:52 am

walesworldcup wrote:Irish Ref with a French father.

Looks like a great choice to ref this match!

........................................................................................................................................................................

That is a bit sad to try an accuse the ref of being bias towards Wales.

The ref was right to give Warbaton a red card, i guess the thought of not getting to the final got to him.

Wales just have to pull together right now if they are going to win.

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Post by Knowsit17 Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:54 am

A clumsy tackle but no malicious intent, the French player didn't even land that awkwardly. Wouldn't be surprised if France had Rolland in their pocket for this one.

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Post by Cowshot Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:54 am

I agree with Mr Pienaar on ITV. Never a red. Wrecked the game (barring an absolute miracle).

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Post by Davie Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:55 am

Knowsit17 wrote:A clumsy tackle but no malicious intent, the French player didn't even land that awkwardly. Wouldn't be surprised if France had Rolland in their pocket for this one.

What is the weather like on your planet?

That's a disgraceful accusation to make also

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Post by Knowsit17 Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:57 am

Davie wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:A clumsy tackle but no malicious intent, the French player didn't even land that awkwardly. Wouldn't be surprised if France had Rolland in their pocket for this one.

What is the weather like on your planet?

That's a disgraceful accusation to make also

Why? Is speculating against corruption unreasonable given controversy?

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Post by Thomond Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:58 am

Halfway through and you're already b!tching about the ref. Get behind your team would you and stop giving out. You're well in it, would you get behind your team.

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Post by fa0019 Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:58 am

Knowsit17

It was a clear cut yellow.. if a ref doesn't give a yellow for that it would get a certain citing and a poor show by the ref.

Saying some refs would let that go isn't a defence for the tackle... its illegal, its dangerous... but a yellow would be the suitable penalty.

I do have sympathy for our Welsh brethren... its an impossible task now surely. If Wales were to win now it would be a bigger shock then Tonga beating France in the pools.

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Post by Knowsit17 Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:59 am

I agree it was a yellow but have to repeat, farcical decision.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:07 am

Knowsit17 wrote:I agree it was a yellow but have to repeat, farcical decision.

On reflection and seeing the replay at half-time (and I know I've said different on the match thread but I reserve the right to change my mind Smile ), the tackle was slightly worse than the one Lawes got a ban for in the pools. So red is justified, had it been yellow the citing commissioner would have added a couple of weeks ban to it.
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Post by robbo277 Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:09 am

fa0019 wrote:The ref has a job to not only administer the match but to run the match as a spectacle.. this is one of the 3 biggest matches every 4 years, you have to run it with a little leniency.

It was a certain yellow thats for sure though but for me not a red.... in any game let alone a world cup semi final.

Without commenting on the incident, the referee can't give ANY decisions on the basis that is a World Cup semi-final. He's just got to give it as he sees it.

Commenting on the incident, I think you can see why he's given it, referees are clamping down on this kind of thing. He tipped him and dropped him (you have to bring players down safely) so it definitely warranted a punishment, whether red is the right punishment though I'm not so sure.

If Clerc had gone off with a serious injury, would the tackle have been viewed upon differently? Because it was definitely reckless (earlier in the tournament Lawes got a ban for a reckless tackle on Ledesma).

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Post by fa0019 Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:10 am

Lawes didn't get a card for that though... only a citing. So in that case if it was slightly worse then Lawes which was penalised but but carded then it should be a yellow, max.

At least go to the linesman... at least use the TMO. Thats what its there for.

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Post by Davie Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:11 am

To those who don't believe it was a red card, watch again here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d75L8OQVe6U

Spoiler:

The player is lifted, then there is a DEFINITE downward motion, after which he either releases or drops him. Either way, red card

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Post by Thomond Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:14 am

TMO can only be used in point scoring situations I think.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:16 am

Thomond wrote:TMO can only be used in point scoring situations I think.

Refs can also use TMO to identify a player if they've seen something dodgy but not gotten a number
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:35 am

It could have been a yellow or a red IMO
The 2010 law ammendment was followed up with a mroe recent instruction to clamp down on these tackles and not be afriad to use the red. It was a tough decision, but one coonsistent with how the game is suppossed to be reffed.

Complain about the laws, not the aplication in this specific incidence. Rolland did his job ( in the same way a concentration camp guard did)

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Post by robbo277 Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:39 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:It could have been a yellow or a red IMO
The 2010 law ammendment was followed up with a mroe recent instruction to clamp down on these tackles and not be afriad to use the red. It was a tough decision, but one coonsistent with how the game is suppossed to be reffed.

Complain about the laws, not the aplication in this specific incidence. Rolland did his job ( in the same way a concentration camp guard did)

Alright Eliota, didn't realise you'd found your way onto 606v2!

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Post by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:48 am

Shame for Wales, shame for Warburton, I think the ref could have called it a yellow, but can see why he called it Red.

If that tackle had been made on one of our players we'd all have been calling for a Red,











and we all know it.


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Post by BATH_BTGOG Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:53 am

It was a yellow card fair enough, Clerc play acts all the sodding time and the half French Ref bought it, what a disgrace.

How can a half Frenchman referee a game like this?
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:56 am

Honestly I think Rolland should be reviewed for such a decision. It definitely had a bearing on the game, there was no malicious intent, no downward pressure and Clerc milked it a bit as well I think.

As a neutral I am terribly disappointed for Wales, and think Rolland must be reviewed and possibly suspended.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:59 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Honestly I think Rolland should be reviewed for such a decision. It definitely had a bearing on the game, there was no malicious intent, no downward pressure and Clerc milked it a bit as well I think.

As a neutral I am terribly disappointed for Wales, and think Rolland must be reviewed and possibly suspended.

He'll be reviewed and shown to have done what was directed.

What needs to happen is to review the sanctions for tip tackles. The ex players cant beleive it because they played under different laws and understand how hard it is to avoid accidental spears.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:00 am

It was never a red card and had a huge bearing on such a high profile game. France did not deserve to make the final.

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Post by rodders Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:01 am

Posted this else where. Warburton is not a dirty player and it was not intentional IMO but based on the rules it is a straight red card. No doubt about it. Rolland had no option but to send him off.

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2040903.html

The amended Law 10.4(j) will now read: Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play.

The amended Law will operate globally from December 1, 2010.
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Post by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:03 am

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Clerc play acts all the sodding time

He certainly playacted when he acted like he was shot after he kicked the ball. That was disgraceful.

As for the red. As a Welshman I'd say yellow. If it were a Frenchman who had done that, I'd probably be wanting red.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:04 am

I agree it is dangerous play, nobody is doubting that but dangerous enough for a red? Not a chance. The laws do not read "must be red carded". It was a penalty offence for sure, but a red? Ludicrous.

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Post by Knowsit17 Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:04 am

Disgrace and will plunge this match forever into controversy unfortunately. Not a semi anyone but the French will be pleased with.

I'm not going to jump on the death threat/banned for life wagon but that's the first real dangerous bit of play Wales have committed all tournament, it wasn't intentional and no injury resulted from it. It wasn't nearly as serious as some are making out, Clerc clearly landed on his back/shoulders and I've seen tackles twice as dangerous made by players who got off scot-free.

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Post by newbie Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:05 am

Silly tackle to make, as someone said if Clerc had a broken neck or shoulder what colour should it have been. Unfortunate but Warburton was silly and gave Roland the option.
I see some are blaming Clerc, he had absolutely no control on his fall he was lucky he didnt come down on his head. The law states that in these spear tackles the intent of the tackler is not the main consideration it is the safety of the tackled player.

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Post by Comfort Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:06 am

watched it numerous times now, it could have been a penalty or yellow or red, think the ref's got it wrong with the red but sam shouldnt have given him a choice and should have bought clerc down safely. rush of blood to the head from sam, confounded by the referee - these things happen.

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Post by wonder_man Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:08 am

ridiculous decision, best team lost,,, nothing more needs to be said

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Post by robbo277 Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:12 am

Knowsit17 wrote:It wasn't nearly as serious as some are making out, Clerc clearly landed on his back/shoulders and I've seen tackles twice as dangerous made by players who got off scot-free.

Then Warburton can count himself unlucky in that the laws have been applied to him where they haven't been applied to others, but that's not Rolland's fault and that doesn't mean Warburton shouldn't have been red carded.

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Post by Ospreydragon Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:12 am

According to the letter of the law, it was a red card, but the law is written badly. Does this mean that every time a player tackles another by taking out his feet, and momentum topples the player into the air, and the tackler loses his grip of the player, that all such imcidents require red cards? If that is the case, similar incioents have not been interpreted consistently by referees at club and international level. On the basis of the law, the ref had no choice, however.

It was not a spear tackle because there was no attempt by Sam to drive him into the ground. The difference between this incident and BOD on the Lions tour is considerable. The incident has cost Wales a chance at winning the World Cup. From now on, I want to see this law applied consistently, or it should be rewritten.

Despite that, Hook missed two kickable kicks, Jonesy missed a conversion, and 1/2p missed a pen. Despite being down to 14 men for most of the game and without Adam J, Wales had chances to win the game. For me, Wales are clearly a better side than France and would have won with 15 men. Perhaps I'm biased, but a 14-man Wales put France under enormous pressure and Wales would have been worthy finalists.

But it's not to be. France have won and good luck to them, but I think they'll be hammered in the final.

I feel sorry for Warburton.


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Post by wonder_man Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:13 am

your going to get slaughtered for this, but surely theres someone who couldnt play for france who couldv reffed this game. absolutely gutted, SO PROUD OF THE BOYS Wales best team lost. I just cant justify the decision

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Post by rodders Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:13 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I agree it is dangerous play, nobody is doubting that but dangerous enough for a red? Not a chance. The laws do not read "must be red carded". It was a penalty offence for sure, but a red? Ludicrous.

Yes they do. There is a zero tolerance policy to spear tackles since 2009 and that includes dropping the player whilst in the air. It has to be a red card and that is the rules. If he gives a yellow or a penalty then he has got it wrong.
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Post by Knowsit17 Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:13 am

Might I add now, in the light of this and the Fuimaono-Sapolu row (despite the terrible and rightly punished conduct of the latter) referee appointments should be amended so that the ref given charge has no link whatsoever to the result and teams involved.

Rolland and Owens' appointments in their respective games were controversial. Why couldn't Kaplan or Barnes, both on touch duty today, have reffed for example?

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Post by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:13 am

Do we really need all this moaning about the ref?

There was loads of complaining before the game and now loads afterwards.

Lose with dignity!

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Post by welshy824 Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:15 am

feel gutted for sam, i couldnt believe it when it said sent off, it all happened so quick. he must be devasted

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Post by BlueNote Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:15 am

To me it seemed obvious Warburton was preparing to tackle someone big; because it was Clerc it took him off his feet, and once Warburton realised that, he took the momentum out and released Clerc to avoid hurting him. I can certainly see a penalty, I would have thought a yellow was fairly harsh. Rolland took the decision too quickly, in my view.

Warburton is a completely clean player.

We still had ample opportunity to win the game, just didn't take it.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:16 am

"Dropping the player whilst in the air" - that has happened plenty this tournament when players have competed for the high ball, which is much more dangerous than the tackle on Clerc. Had Warburton driven him into the ground, yes a straight red. Warburton upended him and then released him, no malicious intent and no spearing.

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Post by rodders Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:18 am

No rory the rules have changed. If you drop the player it is a red card and if other refs have not applied that then they are wrong.
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Post by BlueNote Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:19 am

Dallaglio has got it spot on:

"Former England captain Lawrence Dallaglio added: "He has lifted him up, realised his feet have gone up, and then let him go.

"This ref refereed the last World Cup final, he is supposed to be one of the best in the world. But he has made a terrible decision."


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Post by welshy824 Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:19 am

SafeAsMilk wrote:Do we really need all this moaning about the ref?

There was loads of complaining before the game and now loads afterwards.

Lose with dignity!

safe as i know you are totally anti welsh but imagine this was england in the semis and tuilagi or ashton or foden (your talismans) did that and got red you would be devasted and you would be calling for rowlands head.

i guess this shows how much of a difference having a quality 7 in your team does, aus lost to ireland- no pocock, wales lose to france- no warbs

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Post by rodders Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:20 am

Dallagio doesn't know the rules. Warburton was sent off because he let him go. That is a straight red even if it is unintentional.
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Post by Guest Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:22 am

How long will he get banned for? What's the sanction for this?

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Post by BlueNote Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:22 am

It's difficult to see what else he could have done once he realised Clerc was off his feet. What he did resulted in the least harm to the player.

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Post by Mike Selig Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:23 am

The IRB issued a directive a couple of years back to referees. The full link is here:

http://www.deepsouthrugbyunion.com/images/IRB_Memorandum_re_Dangerous_Tackles.pdf

The relevant bit is here:

The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.

The fact that there was no drive is irrelevant. The possibility that there was no intent is irrelevant (I quote again: "Referees and Citing Commissioners should not make their decisions based on what they consider was the intention of the offending player."). The fact that Warburton is a clean player is irrelevant (do you want referees to ref on reputation or on what they see?). The fact that it was 20 minutes into a RWC semi-final is irrelevant. It is a RC by the laws and directives of the game.

There is a referees forum, and on it refs are unanimous.

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Post by Davie Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:24 am

I'm an England fan and if it had been Ashton, Tuilagi or Foden (or anyone else) of course I'd be devastated.

But I wouldn't be calling for Rolland's head. I'd be calling for the head of the idiot that commited the offense

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Sam Warburton Red Card Empty Re: Sam Warburton Red Card

Post by brennomac Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:25 am

If Dusautoir was the tackler and Shane Williams was the one tackled in the same situation, Welsh fans would legitimately be screaming for a red card for Dusautoir. And the rules and the interpretations of those rules imposed on refs by the IRB mean that Warburton's dump tackle was a red card. OK, he didn't drive Clerc into the ground as St Kevin and the Blessed Tana did to BOD but he did drop him.

Not saying I necessarily agree with the rule, but Rolland was left with little choice - the fact that it was a RWC semi-final is neither here nor there.

brennomac

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Sam Warburton Red Card Empty Re: Sam Warburton Red Card

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