The difference??

As many will know there is a very fine line between self confidence, self assuredness and arrogance. Some people can tell the difference, some people clearly cant (not that I'm thinking about any other threads right now!!).

As I see it, EVERY top sportsperson, I'm talking about the guys/girls in the top echelons of their sport simply MUST have a robust mechanism of self assuredness in their ability to deliver when it matters... and they do, they simply continually reassure themselves that they are at least as good if not better than even they themselves think they are. The trouble is, when the top people dare to externally verbalise their inner self confidence, the less initiated observer (because they simply don't understand) tend to view such verbalisations as arrogance. In a way they are technically correct (arrogance:: an exaggerated opinion of ones own importance/ability).

How much self belief do you have?
How often, if ever do you externally express it?
When you do, do you find that the words come back to bite you?

Big difference between self confidence and arrogance.

I view self-confidence as having a heightened level of self-assuredness, yet still have the ability to recognise someone else's talents, and have respect for them. Arrogance equals the same level of self-assuredness, but have total and utter disregard for anyone else...The kind of person you'd like to wrap your 7 iron around their head. Every professional sportsperson has an incredibly high level of self-confidence. Some may find it easier to have it knocked, but the very best will always have absolute confidence always.


I have a lot of self-confidence, yet I think it stops way before reaching the level where it can be considered "cocky" or "arrogant".

I express my confidence in everyday life. I need to due to what I do for work, but I don't go out of my way to do it... it's just the way I am.

How people react is entirely down to the person you're in contact with. If it's someone timid, then their reaction to it may be more extreme than it would be with some with similar confidence levels. Sometimes my attitude rubs people up the wrong way, yet most people like the way I conduct myself, and that they know exactly where they stand with me.

Clearly, you have a reasonable understanding of the difference Marcus and are able to debate the finer points in detail...So in your opinion.... is Mr Donald arrogant?

JAS wrote:Clearly, you have a reasonable understanding of the difference Marcus and are able to debate the finer points in detail...So in your opinion.... is Mr Donald arrogant?

Mr Donald is probably one of the least arrogant, and most down to earth players out there. He's actually far too nice to be no.1, and he should apologise to all of us immediately for it.

In all seriousness though, anyone who thinks Donald is arrogant is a complete imbecile, knows nothing whatsoever about golf, and should be banned from 606v2 immediately, if not sooner.

the difference is self awareness.

and i dont think luke donald is arrogant.

Donald is lots of things......but arrogant is certainly not one of them! His 'outburst' was purely and simply a statement of fact......end of!

As for me as a person, I wouldn't consider myself particularly confident but on the golf course I do have self belief in my own ability.

Nothing to see here...

Actually what there is to see here Redrage is a reasoned debate about how we as golfers perceive self confidence in our ability (like say for a random example... what Luke Donald exudes in spades) and how that differs from downright arrogance...(co-incidentally how another poster on these boards tends to see the very same Mr Donald).

JAS wrote:Actually what there is to see here Redrage is a reasoned debate about how we as golfers perceive self confidence in our ability (like say for a random example... what Luke Donald exudes in spades) and how that differs from downright arrogance...(co-incidentally how another poster on these boards tends to see the very same Mr Donald).

My comment was actually to mask a comment that I made here that was intended in another thread... I was hoping it would go unnoticed

lol...I know exactly what you mean RR and understand....everytime Jelly spins up a thread I feel the urge to start a similar one that tries to capture the debate but in a more reasoned/debatable context.

Firstly to comment on Luke, there is nothing arrogant about him in the slightest. He simply has belief in his own ability and his results prove he is right to have the belief and confidence that he does. The rankings do not lie despite some sycophantic Tiger fans assuming he is the holier than thou #1 due to his major haul. Luke has been the worlds most consistent player for 2 years and is extending the lead he has at the top and whats wrong with wanting to be the first official #1 on both sides of the atlantic as well ass world #1 a pretty good achievement and something he should strive for.

Back to the questions posed:


How much self belief do you have?

I have a lot of self belief not only in my golf game, but in everything i do in life. I give everthing I'm doing my complete focus and commitment, I make sure that doesn't trip over into being cocky and arrogant by simply being aware of what I'm doing and how I am as a person. In a sportig context how can anyone expect to achieve their goals without self belief and confidence if you don't have it then your simply setting yourself up to fail, by having it and doing things respectfully you should never come across as arrogant and cocky

How often, if ever do you externally express it?

In business often but again with respect and only by holdng myself in the right way and when asked questions for example answer firmly but politely with confidence will always make potential new clients to my business respect me more and want to work with me such is the natue of my business.

In Golf, rarely do I express it, something I pride myself on when on the course is to always appear to be level in that I mean to anyone I would look calm, relaxed and never overly pumped when on a hot streak or flustered when things aren't going my way. Just remain quietly confident within myself, this doesn't mean I don't care and am not trying infact totally the opposite i'm giving everything my all it's just how carry myself and even when things are going dog turd I remain a 100% confident in my game and trust my game. I find thats got me to a decent level and thats how I let my confidence show by simply always remaining the same on the course no matter how good or bad things are going.

When you do, do you find that the words come back to bite you?.

They did once when I was younger and more naive, when I had my first boxing match in the army, I was overly confident and even would say got a little cocky and arrogant. I'd been boxing for since I was 10, something OldMan Mav got my brother and I into to help build our confidence and this was the only time I let it boil over and learnt my lesson. I was too cocky saying what round I was going to win in etc beacue I listened to much to the smoke being blown up my ass. Long storey short I left myself open in the final round and took a blow that lost me the fight on a TKO. From that day on I never got over confident again and I never lost another fight after it because I went into every fight confident in my own ability but with respect for the other guy and his.

Arrogance is defined by the World English Dictionary as "having or showing an exaggerated opinion of one's own importance, merit, ability, etc;" Definitions also mention disdain for the importance, merit, ability etc. of others.

Ergo, it seems illogical to define Luke D as arrogant since his opinion of his ability is well founded in fact.

Confidence and self assurance are founded on knowledge, ability and experience. My experience (based on a long business career) is that the first people to level the charge of arrogance in others, are people who tend to be quite arrogant in their own right - having an exaggerated opinion of their ability to judge others and apply logic, and being disdainful of other's views.

Before anyone says it, I realise this is rather circulatory and self-fulfilling (me saying people who call people arrogant are generally arrogant), but I'm not talking about an individual here so much as a trend I've noticed.

Everybody has different boundaries, beliefs, in what constitutes the difference between being self confident and arrogant so really its impossible for someone to state that they are self confident without being arrogant. All that means is in their own belief system they are not arrogant.

You could very easily say its the sign of an arrogant peson that they see themselves as self confident but never cross the line into being cocky. The fact is that many, many people walk around acting in what others would percieve as an arrogant manner, and yet if you were to confront them about it they would simply claim they were expressing their self confidence.

However Luke Donald strikes me as being a very humble person though I do agree with the earlier post that the whole scenario is a bit of a nonsense as in my view as I said about two weeks ago this particular achievement has already been done by Woods at a canter.

I think a lot of the times, arrogance is perceived rather than it actually being a trait that a person is intentionally showing.

I've been referred to as "arrogant" on quite a few occasions without attempting to appear arrogant. I used to question people who said it but now I just think it's an inferiority complex on their part.

Even when I talk about any success life sends my way, it's not to big-up me but to share the experience of how I feel with the aim of finding out whether other people have experienced that glowing feeling.

I'm someone who thinks everyone gets praised too easily in the modern world and I can easily sober myself up when I think what significant changes or achievements I have made in my life that stand out in the history of the human race. It's very hard to be arrogant about being one of the crowd.

I know Kwini has mentioned on the 'Time Waster And Tiresome''s thread about a 5 year exemption, but i'm a little surprised Donald is taking this topping the money list thing so seriously.
Topping the money list isn't a huge achievement really considering all the other things that can be achieved in a season and it's obviously not about the money itself because he wasn't going to enter originally.

If it were me and i'd planned some time off as part of a schedule to be ready for next year, i think i'd just stick to it

Some excellent posts guys. I think we are pretty much all in agreement about Luke except Mr ProvocativeThread himself, who is coincidentally conspicuously absent on any thread where a reasonable debate is going on.

Feel free to disagree, but I see this as a subjective issue. Exhibit A - Ian Poulter. I see him as self-confident (and respect him for speaking his mind, but don't necessarily agree with him all the time). Others perceive him as off-the-chart arrogant.

[I am not going to read what I suspect is the "other" thread which people are referring to here, but I'm guessing that my contribution would be "Get thee to a WUMmery" if I did / if I was in the mood to misquote Shakespeare.]

Could it be possible that Luke Donald is not Arrogant !! He is just so stereotypically English !!. Its a bit like saying should we bring Rooney to the Euros for the games after the group stages (would assume victory) !! hes optomistic, good for him. Theres nothing new in this type of behaviour thats why people que up to down these people when failure eventually occurs. Can't really see him finishing 2nd or better, don't think he has the minerals when the extra pressure he has put on himself tells, but wish him luck and would be delighted if he proves me wrong.

I think too often arrogance is veiwed as a flaw, or as a distasteful attribute to have. But I would say that because I will quite happily admit I am arrogant, certainly when it comes to golf, but i can back it up!

That is what irks me about poulter, he can't back it up, certainly not in teh grand scheme of things, and I think that is where the fine line is drawn!

[quote="JDandfries"]But I would say that because I will quite happily admit I am arrogant, certainly when it comes to golf, but i can back it up!
[quote]

Erm...no further comment required on that one??

We have lots of great sports men/woman who have been outstanding in their own field of sport, but have also been humble about themselves, Luke fits into this category.

Some of the American bible thumbing crowd try to appear humble but are arrogant about their religion and how "they thank god for his gift", and then we have Poulter who,s arrogance is so overwhelming, he might think one day he could replace god

I read an article recently about Jonathan Edwards, the triple jumper. For years he refused to compete on Sundays because of his religion, saying it was God's day of rest and Christians should devoted the day to worshipping God. No problem with that if that is his thing.

But what about all these sickly bible bashing American golfers, they don't seem to have a problem 'working' on a Sunday, especially when they have just won an event.

Wasn't Edwards a priest or preacher or something like that! As for Yankee bible bashers they need a good bashing!

Poulter not being able to back it up! Case 1: ryder cup 2010 interviewed said I will deliver a point in singles, he won so point delivered! Case 2 I aim to be the best I can and win everything I play in! Where's the arrogance in that every pro should think that way, and wins in a WGC last year and world matchplay thise year are certainly delivering, any pro will lose more than they win its law of averages. So JD until you deliver more pro titles than Poulter I'd say he backs it up a lot better than you!..... Unless of course you wish to reitterate you meant at club level and can give evidence of such!

drive4show wrote:I read an article recently about Jonathan Edwards, the triple jumper. For years he refused to compete on Sundays because of his religion, saying it was God's day of rest and Christians should devoted the day to worshipping God. No problem with that if that is his thing.

But what about all these sickly bible bashing American golfers, they don't seem to have a problem 'working' on a Sunday, especially when they have just won an event.

Jonathan Edwards is one of my favourite people simply for realising that all evidence points to there being no Abrahamic God and accepting as such.