Was New Zealand winnng good or bad for rugby?

First topic message reminder :

I'm not trying to be cynical here or anything but was New Zealand's win today a good or a bad thing for our sport? Will New Zealand with the monkey off their back win most World Cups from now on and destory all before them or just more often, or will nothing really change? Similarly had they lost would NZ rugby taken a major step back and not recoverd from a massive blow?

I'm not sure myself so I'll listen to what people have to say before making my mind up. Btw congrats to New Zealand on winning

Perhaps English but a lot of that is still an 'opinion'. It isnt a source of truth.

For instance, Sa and Oz dont see as much 'cheating' as some Nh posters seem to. And 'cheating' is what refs are for.

How can one 'cheat' with a ref watching their every move- its a contradiction that you have the two hand in hand.

Not liking the haka is also an opinion. Most people like it. The media flock to it and its traditional.

So on one side of the coin, you see the ABs as cheats and hate the haka.

Others dont see the cheating to the extent you do and love the haka.

An opinion that if anything carries little merit given that if anything its outwieghed by the other side of the coin.

No problem having one though...

if a team gets away with cheating then its the refs fault- simple.

the haka cracks me up- keep it its all good, i just want other teams to be able to challenge it not get fined!!!

That's right, bit the throat slitting has to go.

The defenition of cheating is to do something under handed whilst nobody is aware it is happening, pushing the limit of the law is not cheating.

Anyone can see when someone is pushing the limit of the law, and can therefor see when a referee is allowing someone to get away with those transgressions.

The real accusation can there for not be aimed at the team transgressing, and there rest on the shoulders of an incompetent performance or unwillingness by a referee to be consistent to both teams.

I am of the opinion and I hope South Africa will approach the ineptitude of referees in future by way of handling these indiscretions in their own way.

When a player is on the wrong side of a ruck or not releasing sort him out, especially when it is clear the referee has no intention to.

It is time players became a little harder on transgressing opponents as it could mean more losses due to the ineptitude and shortcomings of referees because of the pace of the game.

The players need to be more vocal when referees are incompetent regardless of the IRB directive that referees may not be criticised. We already have enough of this political correctness in SA, we are the supposed hard men of rugby, winning is more important to me than feeling sorry for hurting someone's feelings.

But I digress, players don't cheat, referees allow them to get away with transgressions which makes it even worse.
It is like being conned by a con man, only thing is you can see it happening and yet can do nothing about it, our match vs OZ was surreal, it felt like being molested by a dirty old man and you had to watch 80 minutes of it.


Horrible


Now I have to go slaughter a pig just to get rid of that image

Hi ya biltong. I know ive taken an unforgiving line on the ref thing as we had it happen to us but when all said and done its an issue that needs to be resolved. A real breaking down of the issues one by one and sorting them out is needed.
Players doing the sorting obviously isnt the answer as you end up with a worse situation than the one youre trying to prevent.
Somethings needed.
Dont know what it is but several critical games have been ruined by poor reffing.
Funny thing is. Im no expert but its odd how no one can agree that a ref was bad or good. I mean surely you either are or arent. Yet supporting one side or another seems to be the greatest determining factor.
Was in our case. We knew barnes stuffed up badly yet no one outside ab support agreed or cared.
Surely its in everyones interest to get the right rulings.

Morning Taylorman. I disagree with you on two counts.

Many people agreed the referee in the 2007 QF cost NZ the game. Most South Africans I know agreed with that.

As for sorting out players. If a referee has shown clear intent that he is not going to sort out an issue and ontop of that as John Smit aluded to, is not prepared to listen. There is but little choice left.

You are not allowed to take the law into your own hands, but are also not allowed to crtiticise the referee by virtue of the directive from the IRB.

That creates a stalemate.

In my view there is only one way. Take the law into your own hands.

Whether a player like Franks does often, is standing in an offside position at a ruck, or a player the caliber of Warburton, Pocock or McCaw is continiously spoiling your ball with no regard for retribution by a referee, you just simply cannot accept that.

I am not saying hit the player or do something against the spirit of the game.

There are ligitimate ways of showing a player you are not going to allow him to get away with his trangressions.

you play him hard, you hurt him in the tackle, you drive him in the maul, you rip him out of your side of the ruck, and you do this all with as much fanfar as you can. Ultimately the referee will decide to step in or the player will stop trangressing.

Ultimately this is not a game for sissies, in the olden days you had a lot more leeway in teaching transgressing players their place. These days we are protecting trangressors by saying nobody is allwed to react.

Bull twang I say.

If the referee won't or can't do it and won't or can't listen. you have but only one choice.

Yes but then you get the variations of how each player might interpret 'taking the law into your own hands' which in the heat of a battle probably not the ideal model for 'consistency'.

I agree to an extent but these days theres too much on a game to allow that. Sponsors returns being a key one. Enforcers arent going to be seen in a good light in any shape or form.

Agree theres a problem but a practical solution is all that will work in todays world. Unfortunately the good old sort em out in the ruck days are well gone.

We're all surely better than that. We play the game to enjoy it and the further we move away from that the worse it will get.

Taylorman, be realistic mate. The referees are struggling to keep up.

I looked at the areas a referee has to watch at breakdowns, scrums, and mauls the other day, there are too many for them to watch, and the game has gotten to fast and to big for them to handle.

I firmly believe my solution is the best one.

Have to agree Biltongbek. They watch one thing and miss others. What I'd point out though is that there was a lot of illegal play by the french as well that went unpunshed. I think Joubert said it earlier in the week that players push the ref to see what he'll let go. I think that happened today. Another regeree might have penalised the AB's more, but actually they might also have penalised the french more and depowered two of their primary weapons, the scrum and their own rucks. Thay might even have penalied the French in the lead up to their try.

I went to the game. It seemed to me when i was there that the refereeing team was struggling (but with both sides). The sides were also adapting there style, particularly with how the used the ball at different times in the match. Overall the penalty count was similar, with the AB's having an advantage. They were awarded more penalties in the first half and the french more in the second.

If France had won I wouldn't be complaining, but I don't feel lucky, in terms of the ref either. I'll watch the game in the weekend, maybe I'll feel different then.

Canelion, without wanting to open yet another can of worms, I also thought the ruck when the ball was kicked through could be disputed as the player weren't exactly on side.

I think Joubert saw it as coming through the gate and from what I understand you may kick the ball out of the ruck.

But it did look "wrong" when it happened.

Bek - in the first half NZ were pushing before the ball come in at every scrum without censure. France decide that the only way to deal with that is to also push before the ball comes in - free kick NZ.

Biltong - i actually agree with your view of Rougerie, but by this time i was so incensed by Joubert, that i was pleased that he let something go, but overall i totally agree.

By the way i think the first offside penalty that Weepu missed came from an innocuous offside where a French player HAD moved forward, but then moved back when warned and did not interfere with play.

AB's did this far worse, far often on Sunday, and never got pinged for it. The whole thing stinks. I beleive that AB's were and are, the best team in the World and deserved to win, but the manner of the reffing in the final eased their way, so good luck to them, but nothing but contempt for the IRB and reffing 'Culture' that allows this to happen.

Glas, i am not disputing anything anymore. I watched that game after reading the opinions on here, and wer ecritical from a perspective of how I see infringements and really still do not understand what the fuss is about.

I don't despute the fact that NZ can count themselves fortunate. But then in any game that is that close it is about one call that can make a difference.

(Except of course when it is SA vs Bryce and there are 25 wrong calls)

Interestingly, I read a blog sight TrublueNZ. A few days before the Sa vs OZ match there was an article predicting the role Lawrence will play in that match. essentially saying Lawrence will make up to the Ozzies for their loss against Ireland.

Lo and Behold a prophet was born.

english warrior wrote:Biltong - i actually agree with your view of Rougerie, but by this time i was so incensed by Joubert, that i was pleased that he let something go, but overall i totally agree.

By the way i think the first offside penalty that Weepu missed came from an innocuous offside where a French player HAD moved forward, but then moved back when warned and did not interfere with play.

AB's did this far worse, far often on Sunday, and never got pinged for it. The whole thing stinks. I beleive that AB's were and are, the best team in the World and deserved to win, but the manner of the reffing in the final eased their way, so good luck to them, but nothing but contempt for the IRB and reffing 'Culture' that allows this to happen.

Warrior I know of the incident you are talking. THe French player went about 876 mm offside and then went back. The New Zealander ( can't remember who) also went forward but then went back.

In explanation I can only offer this, (not that it will help). Becuase the All Blacks attacked around that blind side Joubert may have been swayed to blow for the penalty. But as you say it missed anyway.

biltongbek wrote:

english warrior wrote:Biltong - i actually agree with your view of Rougerie, but by this time i was so incensed by Joubert, that i was pleased that he let something go, but overall i totally agree.

By the way i think the first offside penalty that Weepu missed came from an innocuous offside where a French player HAD moved forward, but then moved back when warned and did not interfere with play.

AB's did this far worse, far often on Sunday, and never got pinged for it. The whole thing stinks. I beleive that AB's were and are, the best team in the World and deserved to win, but the manner of the reffing in the final eased their way, so good luck to them, but nothing but contempt for the IRB and reffing 'Culture' that allows this to happen.

Warrior I know of the incident you are talking. THe French player went about 876 mm offside and then went back. The New Zealander ( can't remember who) also went forward but then went back.

In explanation I can only offer this, (not that it will help). Becuase the All Blacks attacked around that blind side Joubert may have been swayed to blow for the penalty. But as you say it missed anyway.

Sorry Bek, I know you have made your bed and are determined to stick up for one of your own, but the penalty against Para was laughable in its own right, but minutes later Brad Thorn and McCaw went up much further either side of a French ruck when Yachvilli had his head down getting the ball and went back - nothing.

It's all a bit silly. I think too many people watched the game with their ears and not their eyes. I had to endure Dayglo's commentary and sometimes wondered if I was watching another game.

I haven't watched the game again yet, but I will. Sure the ref made mistakes, but it was a two way street. Just to balance the ledger. The French were guilty of joining the ruck illegally numerous times, interfered with players around the fringes, they somehow managed to get scrum feeds after taking the ball into mauls, there was a punch thrown in the second half, the list goes on. And the piece de resistance, the gouging.

The best team won. Move on.

goneagain wrote:
It's all a bit silly. I think too many people watched the game with their ears and not their eyes. I had to endure Dayglo's commentary and sometimes wondered if I was watching another game.

I haven't watched the game again yet, but I will. Sure the ref made mistakes, but it was a two way street. Just to balance the ledger. The French were guilty of joining the ruck illegally numerous times, interfered with players around the fringes, they somehow managed to get scrum feeds after taking the ball into mauls, there was a punch thrown in the second half, the list goes on. And the piece de resistance, the gouging.

The best team won. Move on.

I watched it on S4C, so what's your problem?

No problem. Just an observation.

Glas a du wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

english warrior wrote:Biltong - i actually agree with your view of Rougerie, but by this time i was so incensed by Joubert, that i was pleased that he let something go, but overall i totally agree.

By the way i think the first offside penalty that Weepu missed came from an innocuous offside where a French player HAD moved forward, but then moved back when warned and did not interfere with play.

AB's did this far worse, far often on Sunday, and never got pinged for it. The whole thing stinks. I beleive that AB's were and are, the best team in the World and deserved to win, but the manner of the reffing in the final eased their way, so good luck to them, but nothing but contempt for the IRB and reffing 'Culture' that allows this to happen.

Warrior I know of the incident you are talking. THe French player went about 876 mm offside and then went back. The New Zealander ( can't remember who) also went forward but then went back.

In explanation I can only offer this, (not that it will help). Becuase the All Blacks attacked around that blind side Joubert may have been swayed to blow for the penalty. But as you say it missed anyway.

Sorry Bek, I know you have made your bed and are determined to stick up for one of your own, but the penalty against Para was laughable in its own right, but minutes later Brad Thorn and McCaw went up much further either side of a French ruck when Yachvilli had his head down getting the ball and went back - nothing.

Glas, no problem, and I am not defending Joubert. On that occasion it was double standards. But isn't that the IRB's mission statement?

bad. they always play outside the law and did again in the final. france were the better team, deserved to win but were reffed off the park.

how can ref allows the allblacks to play it their way and ref every other team according to the laws?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdr-W775hk4&feature=related

(you may have seen this already)

dogtooth wrote:bad. they always play outside the law and did again in the final. france were the better team, deserved to win but were reffed off the park.

how can ref allows the allblacks to play it their way and ref every other team according to the laws?

youtube.com/watch?v=pdr-W775hk4&feature=related

(you may have seen this already)

You do realise that you're watching a one sided view of the game by someone focusing on one aspect, of ONE team. I'm sure some of our kiwi friends could create a video called 'France at the breakdown' and show just as many infractions.

There's far too many sheep who just follow what poor TV Pundits sprout or random one sided Youtube video's. Watch the game for yourselves with an objective view and you'll start to see that both sides got away with what they shouldn't.

You do realise that you're watching a one sided view of the game by someone focusing on one aspect, of ONE team. I'm sure some of our kiwi friends could create a video called 'France at the breakdown' and show just as many infractions.

Doubtful...why hasnt someone pointed them out yet, probably because they cant find any clear cut ones like the NZ ones....although some people are fantasizing about French indiscretions...

Afew too many- Well if the ref can be one sided in favour of the AB's then i'm darned sure we have the Rugby nous, intelligence and right to challenge what was a reffing tragedy on Sunday.

Let me also nail my own colours to the mast and say that had no-one else brought this up i would still have been( and still am) livid.

An objective view will, if you are able to apply yourself, will show you that France were shafted, pure and simple and no amount of dissembling or BS will change that. I thank you!!

english warrior wrote:

An objective view will,

Particularly if that objective livid view has a robust history of hating NZ...

DOD wrote:
Doubtful...why hasnt someone pointed them out yet, probably because they cant find any clear cut ones like the NZ ones....although some people are fantasizing about French indiscretions...

I've already posted a thread showing the French try shouldn't have been allowed. But apparently that one doesn't matter!

Gonna play the devils advoate here and suggest that if the French won the game under the guise of being aided by the ref that it may have been very good for rugbys future. It may have sparked a change in the way rugby is judged and refeered.

Are NZ the new version of argentina back in 1986(football) . The team that may not have deserved the win on the pitch but is accepted that there deserved it however they got over the line- is this about justice. No it cant be. World cups are not about justice, they are not about being repaid a debt or a contribution to the world of sport at the cost of bad decisions, they are not about religion. Everything before a world cup is irrelevant and every team should have an equal footing from the start and till the end.

Why cant sport move on and just try to be as fair as possible to all teams concerned. Why does every great sporting world cup event bring so much heartache to so many teams. If you loose fairly its much easier to take. The world cup (football) in 2010 and the rugby world cup in 2011 have been the worst showcases of professional reffing of all time in a time when we have technology to help us. Why hasnt the world learnt from marradonas hand ball goal. Maybe because the world thought it was just at the time.
NZ winning in this way has brought ruggby back a year or two, even a decade or two. Until a team wins a cup that isnt considered the best and wins in a way that doesnt seem fair seems to me the only way things will really progress

mystiroakey wrote: they are not about being repaid a debt or a contribution to the world of sport at the cost of bad decisions, they are not about religion. Everything before a world cup is irrelevant and every team should have an equal footing from the start and till the end.

Why cant sport move on and just try to be as fair as possible to all teams concerned. Why does every great sporting world cup event bring so much heartache to so many teams. If you loose fairly its much easier to take. The world cup (football) in 2010 and the rugby world cup in 2011 have been the worst showcases of professional reffing of all time in a time when we have technology to help us. Why hasnt the world learnt from marradonas hand ball goal. Maybe because the world thought it was just at the time.
NZ winning in this way has brought ruggby back a year or two, even a decade or two. Until a team wins a cup that isnt considered the best and wins in a way that doesnt seem fair seems to me the only way things will really progress

Mystiroakey, I agree with you and feel that contests must be fair. I do however understand that the occassion, the speed at which games take place and the fact that referees are only human, errors will slip in. To that extent even when one or two errors creep into a match by an official it is still understandable.

The reason why it is so hard to accept tese individual errors is because we are emotionally invested in sport. Most of us spend a significant time of our lives, talking, playing and living sport, it is part of our DNA, and rugby in my opinion more so than any other sport as it speaks to our barbaric, manly, savage DNA.

It is when a match is clearly unfairly officiated for large parts of a match that it becomes totally unacceptable, it is when you sit in front of your tele, and you start adding the errors on your fingers and eventually have to either take out an abacus, calculator or remove your shoes to use your toes to keep count that it not only seems unbearable but blatantly persecutable.

a theoritical case in point.

france v wales final 2015- france win , but get the favour of the ref- the world says its fair they got hard done by in 2011.

next time wales get to a final- whats the consensous.

when does it end?

Mysteroakey- I was with you until i read the France v WALES final of 2015, because you just lost all credulity there!! Wales indeed!!!

If he was loose with the breakdown have another look at the offside line.

I don´t have a problem if all this fuss brings in technology or systems to make reffing easier.

english warrior wrote:Mysteroakey- I was with you until i read the France v WALES final of 2015, because you just lost all credulity there!! Wales indeed!!!

theoritical pal- theoritocal, i used wales becuase this board has a very high percentage of welsh on it

Mystero- Theoretical, it may be, but don't pander, or play up to the Welsh posters on here , it only encourages them to think they have a voice, theres a good chap!!

mystiroakey wrote:this board has a very high percentage of welsh on it

A good solvent and an abrasive cloth should get that off no problem

'' This board has a very high percentafe of Welsh on it''

WHAAAAAAAAAT, well get Pest control in and sort it out, uuugggggh!! anything but that!!!!