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Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup

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Post by wrfc1980 Thu 27 Oct 2011, 8:42 pm

So Ashton has finished up as top try scorer in the 2011 6 nations and the 2011 world cup. The guy is still in his early 20's so I have no doubt he will go on and break all sorts of try scoring records. His strike rate for England is phenominal and is pretty much a try a game for his 17 tests to date. His record for Northampton is equally impressive and is surely the best strike rate in any domestic top flight competition in the world. Ashton, providing he stays injury free will go down as one of the greats of the game.

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Post by EnglishReign Thu 27 Oct 2011, 8:44 pm

This ain't gonna end well.

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Post by slartibartfast Thu 27 Oct 2011, 8:46 pm

well done ashton
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Post by Guest Thu 27 Oct 2011, 8:47 pm

EnglishReign wrote:This ain't gonna end well.
Yep, it could easily get messy Shocked

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Post by wrfc1980 Thu 27 Oct 2011, 8:47 pm

So Ashton has finished up as top try scorer in the 2011 6 nations and the 2011 world cup. The guy is still in his early 20's so I have no doubt he will go on and break all sorts of try scoring records. His strike rate for England is phenominal and is pretty much a try a game for his 17 tests to date. His record for Northampton is equally impressive and is surely the best strike rate in any domestic top flight competition in the world. Ashton, providing he stays injury free will go down as one of the greats of the game.

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 27 Oct 2011, 8:50 pm

yep quality finisher

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 27 Oct 2011, 8:51 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
EnglishReign wrote:This ain't gonna end well.
Yep, it could easily get messy Shocked
]


why you say that guys?

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Post by Davie Thu 27 Oct 2011, 8:56 pm

It's a reasonable point to make (though to be fair he was EQUAL top try scorer in RWC 2011)

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Post by Scot Abroad Thu 27 Oct 2011, 9:09 pm

While he is undoubtedly a good finisher, 10 of his tries have come against weaker opposition, and I'm including Italy and Scotland in that category.

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Post by flankertye Thu 27 Oct 2011, 9:25 pm

IF HE SCORES HE SCORES

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 27 Oct 2011, 9:30 pm

why is it so obvious that a thread prasing an english player, who deserves it. is inevitably gonna get messy.

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Post by radelven Thu 27 Oct 2011, 9:51 pm

Scot Abroad wrote:While he is undoubtedly a good finisher, 10 of his tries have come against weaker opposition, and I'm including Italy and Scotland in that category.

Not really surprising, as your classification would mean there is a lot more "weaker opposition" than strong. It puts 33% of his tries against 'strong opposition', which is in the same ballpark as two of the all time leading international try scorers, Shane (29%) & Campese (37%).

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Post by Morgannwg Thu 27 Oct 2011, 9:54 pm

El
Oh
El!!

He didn't score a single try in the 6 Nations after the Italy game. This clearly means that he shall never again score a try in that competition. I've got two words for you - Shane Williams. Yahoo

Let us know when this northern mankey has an IRB Player of the Year trophy. I won't be holding my breath;).
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Post by mystiroakey Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:02 pm

your calling him a northern monkey yet your northern yoiurself

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Post by Morgannwg Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:08 pm

I ain't northern like...

I thought I would get a better response, "why is it so obvious that a thread prasing an english player, who deserves it. is inevitably gonna get messy."

Butnever mind. Tongue was firmly in cheek with that. censored I was impressed with Ashton off the field when being interviewed, I thought he'd be slightly cocky, like he can be on the field. But he wasn't. He was polite, gracious and well presented; and to be honest I haven't seen an England rugby player unlike this. Perhaps they follow MJ's lead.
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Post by mystiroakey Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:13 pm

Morgannwg wrote:I ain't northern like...

I thought I would get a better response, "why is it so obvious that a thread prasing an english player, who deserves it. is inevitably gonna get messy."

Butnever mind. Tongue was firmly in cheek with that. Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup 484478 I was impressed with Ashton off the field when being interviewed, I thought he'd be slightly cocky, like he can be on the field. But he wasn't. He was polite, gracious and well presented; and to be honest I haven't seen an England rugby player unlike this. Perhaps they follow MJ's lead.


you welsh or english in wales

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Post by mystiroakey Thu 27 Oct 2011, 10:13 pm

coz every part of wales is northern surely

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Post by Knowsit17 Thu 27 Oct 2011, 11:33 pm

I wonder how poor a reception I'll be getting now that I point out that the majority of Ashton's tries have been scored against second rate opposition Whistle

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Post by radelven Thu 27 Oct 2011, 11:46 pm

It's already been mentioned, see my post above.

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Post by Looseheaded Fri 28 Oct 2011, 12:06 am

Five of his tries were against Romania and Georgia... Can't really count those. Four of his tries in the 6N were against a weak Italy. I genuinely believe him to be one of the most over rated wingers in world rugby right now. Whilst he's quick and reads the game relatively well, he doesn't create tries, he isn't a player you need to build tactics around, he's a finisher, his tries come off the back of other players' work, not his own. Personally I'd take somebody who makes tries for himself and others with a lower individual try count than him.

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Post by stlowe Fri 28 Oct 2011, 12:51 am

Whether he creates tries or not, the point is he gets them, and come the final whistle all that matters is the points. In the two international competitions he has entered so far he has been the top try scorer, and as someone showed above, so far he's scored a similar ratio of his tries against weak teams as Shane Williams and David Campese (better than Williams, not as good as Campese).

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Post by radelven Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:05 am

Looseheaded wrote:Whilst he's quick and reads the game relatively well, he doesn't create tries, he isn't a player you need to build tactics around, he's a finisher, his tries come off the back of other players' work, not his own. Personally I'd take somebody who makes tries for himself and others with a lower individual try count than him.

Yeah, who wants a winger who's a finisher, being on the end of a move certainly isn't where a winger usually finds themself. Creating tries for others is definitely the more important charecteristic. The best wingers all have low try counts, I mean, look at the top try scorers of all time:

Campese
Williams
Underwood
Howlett
Cullen
Rokocoko

Who really remembers them?

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Post by Taylorman Fri 28 Oct 2011, 1:07 am

radelven wrote:
Looseheaded wrote:Whilst he's quick and reads the game relatively well, he doesn't create tries, he isn't a player you need to build tactics around, he's a finisher, his tries come off the back of other players' work, not his own. Personally I'd take somebody who makes tries for himself and others with a lower individual try count than him.

Yeah, who wants a winger who's a finisher, being on the end of a move certainly isn't where a winger usually finds themself. Creating tries for others is definitely the more important charecteristic. The best wingers all have low try counts, I mean, look at the top try scorers of all time:

Campese
Williams
Underwood
Howlett
Cullen
Rokocoko

Who really remembers them?

thumbsup

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Post by Looseheaded Fri 28 Oct 2011, 2:51 am

Taylorman wrote:
radelven wrote:
Looseheaded wrote:Whilst he's quick and reads the game relatively well, he doesn't create tries, he isn't a player you need to build tactics around, he's a finisher, his tries come off the back of other players' work, not his own. Personally I'd take somebody who makes tries for himself and others with a lower individual try count than him.

Yeah, who wants a winger who's a finisher, being on the end of a move certainly isn't where a winger usually finds themself. Creating tries for others is definitely the more important charecteristic. The best wingers all have low try counts, I mean, look at the top try scorers of all time:

Campese
Williams
Underwood
Howlett
Cullen
Rokocoko

Who really remembers them?

thumbsup

I'm just saying I'd rather a creative winger, a winger who you can give the ball to and he'll find space, not one who needs the space to be made for him. Who's a bigger attacking threat? Somebody who can create an attack or somebody who can finish one off? I just think he's an absolutely over rated player, he gets frustrated and bottles it, and lacks the edge that I think 'great' wingers need. The wingers you listed had that edge, because they weren't just finishers, they had a spark, he doesn't have that, he just happens to be the best attacker england have had since robinson and as such everybody needs a change of underwear.

Also, whoever said that he's a better winger than Shane is more than a little bit silly. I mean, seriously? You'd pick him over the 3rd highest try scorer of all time? Good for you.

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Post by robbo277 Fri 28 Oct 2011, 7:10 am

No-one said he's a better winger than Williams, just his percentage tries scored against "stronger" opposition is better (levelled at those saying Ashton only scores against weaker teams).

15 tries in his 18 games is a phenomenal start to an International career, if he can keep this rate up he could go down as one of the greatest try-scorers of the modern day.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 28 Oct 2011, 7:32 am

robbo

He could end up with a record of 100 tries in 100 appearances for England and it would make no difference to his detractors.

For some, it is because he is English.
For others, because he is northern, for others a league convert, for others because he does a swan dive and for others because he is arrogant (allegedly).

It is pure folly to believe that performance on the field will change the mind of those that do not like him for whatever reason, and to be honest it matters little in the grand scheme of things.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 28 Oct 2011, 7:40 am

Ozzy Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup 3610695981

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 28 Oct 2011, 7:53 am

Looseheaded wrote:Five of his tries were against Romania and Georgia... Can't really count those.

Why not? They were worth five points, weren't they?

This is the truth of it: Chris Ashton is a very dangerous player. Any non-Englishman would be happier not seeing his name on the England team sheet because we know the threat he poses, whether we're prepared to admit it or not.

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Post by GunsGerms Fri 28 Oct 2011, 7:58 am

He also proved himself to be quite a clown with off field stupidity. He is a good player and did very well to get 6 tries but I'm sure he'd rather have scored a couple v France when it really counted.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Fri 28 Oct 2011, 8:55 am

He needs to start scoring against the top teams,at the minute his record is bolstered by scoring 4 tries v Italy and Romania (I think?).He won't be rated as a great until he starts producing in the big games.

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Post by Davie Fri 28 Oct 2011, 8:56 am

Can someone explain to me what "being northern" has got to do with it?

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Post by Boyne Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:26 am

Yes, well done Vincent Clerc!

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Post by Mr Bounce Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:28 am

Whether he is liked or not, since his introduction to the England team they do seem to have more of a spark. He has good finishing speed and runs good support lines which is surely the point of a winger?

As for not being able to score against decent opposition he DID score 2 against Australia last Autumn.

I don't particularly like the guy (especially his swan dives) but I would far rather have him in the England team than not, simply because of the threat he offers. If there's a better winger available, let them be selected instead. Right now I'd say he's the best we've got Smile

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Post by EnglishReign Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:29 am

Well, the content in this thread wasn't utterly predictable Rolling Eyes

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:32 am

Mr Bounce wrote:Whether he is liked or not, since his introduction to the England team they do seem to have more of a spark. He has good finishing speed and runs good support lines which is surely the point of a winger?

As for not being able to score against decent opposition he DID score 2 against Australia last Autumn.

I don't particularly like the guy (especially his swan dives) but I would far rather have him in the England team than not, simply because of the threat he offers. If there's a better winger available, let them be selected instead. Right now I'd say he's the best we've got Smile

there is no valid point about him not scoring against good opposition- he scores against all teams. people just like to discount certain things when discussing players they dont 'want' to rate.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:33 am

Mr Bounce wrote:
As for not being able to score against decent opposition he DID score 2 against Australia last Autumn.


Exactly, they cant defend for toffee. Even Wales nearly beat them.

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Post by mystiroakey Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:34 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
As for not being able to score against decent opposition he DID score 2 against Australia last Autumn.


Exactly, they cant defend for toffee. Even Wales nearly beat them.

so peter- when it comes to ashton- what games to want to judge him on. The odd one in which we play against NZ every other year!

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:47 am

I'm just saying I'd rather a creative winger, a winger who you can give the ball to and he'll find space, not one who needs the space to be made for him.

Yet he scored a good portion of tries in the 6N by picking an angle off of the inside shoulder of the fly half. That is a real skill because you need timing, vision and acceleration to pull that off, if you get it wrong then the opposition openside wil smash you (see Banahan vs Wales in the RWC warm up games to see what happens when you get it wrong). Ashton is an easy target but he is a damn decent winger, he has good suport play, step and speed. He also showed hints of a kicking game in the RWC.

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Post by chewed_mintie Fri 28 Oct 2011, 9:49 am

flankertye wrote:IF HE SCORES HE SCORES

Ivan Drago's in the house!!!

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Post by Comfort Fri 28 Oct 2011, 10:17 am

that is a very impressive try-scoring record. Although 9 of those tries came in 3 games (said games against Italy/Georgia/Romania).
But for the argument he wont produce against the top teams you can bring up those tries against Australia.

Fact is, wingers will always score more against weaker opposition, because they're weaker opposition. He has turned it on against the big teams and lesser teams.

My opinion of him is as follows:

Very good acceleration, good at reading defensive patterns and habits and has excellant support play.

I'd say he has plenty to work on defensively (hes not a small guy, but he doesnt seem too comfortable) but that will come in time.

I'll finish off by saying England need to play flat and on the gainline (youngs/Flood at halfback for me) to make the most of Ashton. They bring runners into the midfield and this is where Ashton can cause real damage.

Over-rated? For me, yes, but mainly by the media/pundits. And lets be fair they could hype up an onion to be the next big superstar if they tried hard enough. He will improve, hes a young guy.

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Post by Glas a du Fri 28 Oct 2011, 10:48 am

Whilst all right minded people would utterly condemn Manu Samoa Tuilagi for "bateing the shoite" (I'm spending too much time with Irish people) out of him, there was a dark part of me which was like this...

Smile Smile Smile

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

YahooYahooYahoo
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Post by Glas a du Fri 28 Oct 2011, 10:52 am

You cant deny though, he has an impressive scoring record and that's what its all about.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 28 Oct 2011, 10:57 am

I'd rather a tw@t of a winger who knows how to score tries than an all-round good egg who couldn't find the try line if it was drawn on his wanger.

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Post by Glas a du Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:03 am

Or converted centres - Lord preserve us!
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Post by Bathman_in_London Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:09 am

Comfort wrote:that is a very impressive try-scoring record. Although 9 of those tries came in 3 games (said games against Italy/Georgia/Romania).
But for the argument he wont produce against the top teams you can bring up those tries against Australia.

Fact is, wingers will always score more against weaker opposition, because they're weaker opposition. He has turned it on against the big teams and lesser teams.

My opinion of him is as follows:

Very good acceleration, good at reading defensive patterns and habits and has excellant support play.

I'd say he has plenty to work on defensively (hes not a small guy, but he doesnt seem too comfortable) but that will come in time.

I'll finish off by saying England need to play flat and on the gainline (youngs/Flood at halfback for me) to make the most of Ashton. They bring runners into the midfield and this is where Ashton can cause real damage.

Over-rated? For me, yes, but mainly by the media/pundits. And lets be fair they could hype up an onion to be the next big superstar if they tried hard enough. He will improve, hes a young guy.

Agreed. The defensive aspect of his game could certainly improve and he needs to occasionally look for more work but he has a bright future and is still young.

It does seem that every couple of years there is a 'new' next big thing winger who makes a great impact and then never kicks on, see Monye and Varndell for example. I hope that Ashton can buck the trend. Some people are never going to like him, but I'm sure as an English player he will be well used to that.

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Post by GunsGerms Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:09 am

Yes Ashton has done very well. 15 tries in 18 test matches. He has scored tries in 6 matches so when he scores he tends to grab a couple.

He has scored against

3 v Australia
2 v Wales
4 v Italy
1 v Scotland
2 v Georgia
3 v Romania

All I care is that in three tests he hasn't scored v Ireland.

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Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup Empty Re: Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup

Post by Geordie Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:24 am

I think the point is that is Ashton is not your typical winger who can make things happen, but he is an intelligent player in that he can see the best lines to hit, and his timing is usually spot on, and is nearly always there when another player makes a break.

However a winger is only as good as his pack and in general when we've played the stronger teams we have been creativity ZERO.

With a midfield axis of Youngs, Flood, Barritt, Tuilagi, we should have a bit more happening and then you will see him at his best.

He may not be the best winger in the world, but im happy with him at the moment...

Geordie

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Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup Empty Re: Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup

Post by mystiroakey Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:29 am

geordie and other doubters of wether ashton is good or not.

ashton turns up, he is like a striker in football, and if he scores he has done his job.

i cant say that about many of our players, bar perhaps tuilahi and haskel that have turned up in recent games.

if all our players turned up and did they job we would have surely had a better world cup

mystiroakey

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Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup Empty Re: Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup

Post by Geordie Fri 28 Oct 2011, 11:53 am

"geordie and other doubters of wether ashton is good or not."

Where did i doubt him?

I merely stated a fact of how i see him as a player....and that im happy he's in the team....


Geordie

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Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup Empty Re: Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup

Post by mystiroakey Fri 28 Oct 2011, 12:00 pm

yep not sure why i put your name in there pal. mis post i retract

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Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup Empty Re: Ashton top try scorer in 6 nations AND world cup

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