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Tiger - 'Stevie is not a racist'

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Post by Redrage Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:18 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/golf/15620375.stm

WARNING: This story contains language some may find offensive.

Tiger Woods has revealed he was hurt by Steve Williams's race comment but insisted his former caddie "is certainly not a racist".

Woods added: "It was a wrong thing to say. We're moving forward. It was hurtful certainly, but life goes forward.

"It is a comment that shouldn't have been made and he certainly wishes he didn't make it."

Woods said he had spoken to Williams about the remark, but declined to reveal exactly what they discussed.

"We talked about it this morning, we met face-to-face, we talked it through and we have agreed it was the wrong thing to say," former world number one Woods said.

"He did apologise."

Woods said he had "no doubts" in his belief that Williams did not hold racist views.

The caddie has apologised for his remarks and European Tour chief George O'Grady and US PGA Tour commissioner Tim Finchem have decided to take no action.

Williams, who now carries Adam Scott's bag, made the comments when he was awarded a light-hearted accolade for "the best celebration of the year" in Shanghai on Friday.

When he was asked to elaborate on his celebration when Scott won a world championship in August Williams said the aim was "to shove it right up that black bumhole".

Williams, who was sacked by Woods in July, apologised on Saturday. He said: "I now realise how my comments could be construed as racist. That was not my intent. I apologise to Tiger and anyone else I have offended."

Williams later told Newstalk ZB radio station in his home country of New Zealand that his comment had been "blown out of all proportion".

He said: "It was kind of like a locker room environment, everyone was having a good time.

"My comments were by no means the worst that were passed. There were a lot of profanities and other kinds of remarks but just because I make a remark regarding my former employee (sic) it gets blown out of all proportion. It's absolutely ridiculous.

"You make one comment in a room, having a bit of fun, how does that make you a racist?

"It's making a mountain out of a molehill and I'm not worried about it one bit."

Williams caddied for Woods from 1999 until earlier this year and shared in 13 of the former world number one's 14 major victories. It is estimated he earned $12m (£7.5m) working for Woods.

Woods was speaking about the incident for the first time at a press conference to discuss this week's Australian Open.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:31 am

Redrage,
That is about the most reasonable thing I've ever heard Tiger say.
Rational? Yes. Perhaps calculating? Possibly.
One will probably never know if Stevie has some "knowledge" about Tiger's flirtations.
Hopefully this can now be cast aside. Not forgotten or forgiven but put aside. Please!

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Post by Maverick Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:39 am

Hopefully now this draws a line under it and everyone can move on and focus on some great golf in Oz, beautiful courses, highly competitive events and the all important Pres cup which I'm looking forward to

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Post by Redrage Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:41 am

Yeah, hopefully Tiger's comments will draw a line under this now.

If you took a little time to think about the bigger picture, it was clear that Williams isn't a racist. I am sure he had Tiger as his best man when he got married, they were obviously very close once. If he was a racist, they would never have been close. He is clearly a bit ignorant though and very bitter about his sacking to hold such ill feeling, but that was quite apparent soon after he was sacked with the fuss he made at the time and then again after his Scott's win.

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Post by NedB-H Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:47 am

kwinigolfer wrote:Redrage,
That is about the most reasonable thing I've ever heard Tiger say.
Think that's about right Kwini. Tiger knows better than anyone whether Stevie's a racist or not. But his comments in that article show once and for all how much of an idiot he is. Making offensive comments is ok because it's a "locker-room environment" (despite the astonishment of the other caddies)? New Zealanders can't be racist because they live in a Maori society? The man's a complete moron, whether racist or not....

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Post by mystiroakey Tue 08 Nov 2011, 6:38 am

"it was clear that Williams isn't a racist. I am sure he had Tiger as
his best man when he got married, they were obviously very close once"

jeas i think that tells us more about tiger than anything else- dose he not have any friends!!

all this is he racist or isnt he racist is sort of starting to get to me- DOES ANYONE know what was actually said, because i cant fine that anywhere.

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Post by ScottieD18 Tue 08 Nov 2011, 7:39 am

Well done to Tiger for firmly closing the door on this dissapointing episode. Hopefully Steve Williams has now come to terms with Tiger sacking him. Adam Scott must also be glad the episode is coming to an end without him losing his caddy.

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Post by Diggers Tue 08 Nov 2011, 8:13 am

Maybe someone should write a list, acceptable racist remarks for someone who is most likely not a racist. Makes it very interesting in defining just what is acceptable to say.
No doubt Terry will use the same defence, it was just a joke, my best friends are black.,........

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Post by pedro Tue 08 Nov 2011, 8:19 am

I thought Tiger was "eublaucasian"? Even if you wanted to shove something up his white bum, it could be deemed racist? Very Happy
Anyway, bit of a non story I think. Of all the swearing on the golf course, I can hardly be offended.

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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 8:41 am

That Conrad Murray is a Woods doppelganger.

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Post by Yadsendew Tue 08 Nov 2011, 8:58 am

super_realist wrote:That Conrad Murray is a Woods doppelganger.

Funny, I thought that too, striking resemblance. I've never seen them in the same room together either.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:07 am

If you rearrange the letters in Conrad Murray you can make 'Randy Cum Roar' - all words relevant to Tiger ? Whistle


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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:08 am

Hard to play in tournaments when you have to be in court.

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Post by gaelgowfer Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:32 am

Definitely calculating kwini! Let's face it, Tiger Woods needs all the brownie points he can get.

Still, hopefully this will draw a line under it.

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Post by Maverick Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:38 am

gaelgowfer wrote:Definitely calculating kwini! Let's face it, Tiger Woods needs all the brownie points he can get.

Still, hopefully this will draw a line under it.

Why does he...

But agree hopefully thats the end of idiotgate.

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Post by Davie Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:40 am

Not sure why it has to be seen as "calculating". For once, Tiger has come out with a statement/press conference which seems to be honest and doesn't duck the issues or take the easy way out. Credit where credit is due (for once)

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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:41 am

gaelgowfer wrote:Definitely calculating kwini! Let's face it, Tiger Woods needs all the brownie points he can get.

Still, hopefully this will draw a line under it.

Gael, on behalf of all Guardian readers and BBC viewers I would like to take extreme offence at your "casual" racism. How dare you mention the word "brown" in such a context Laugh

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Post by gaelgowfer Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:46 am

super_realist wrote:
gaelgowfer wrote:Definitely calculating kwini! Let's face it, Tiger Woods needs all the brownie points he can get.

Still, hopefully this will draw a line under it.

Gael, on behalf of all Guardian readers and BBC viewers I would like to take extreme offence at your "casual" racism. How dare you mention the word "brown" in such a context Laugh

Oops! Laugh

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Post by Diggers Tue 08 Nov 2011, 9:51 am

gaelgowfer wrote:
super_realist wrote:
gaelgowfer wrote:Definitely calculating kwini! Let's face it, Tiger Woods needs all the brownie points he can get.

Still, hopefully this will draw a line under it.

Gael, on behalf of all Guardian readers and BBC viewers I would like to take extreme offence at your "casual" racism. How dare you mention the word "brown" in such a context Laugh

Oops! Laugh
Well lets face it, you could have said that black ahole needs all the brownie points he can get and it wouldnt be an issue.

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Post by McLaren Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:21 am

Is anyone else thinking that the most worrying thing to come out of this episode is that pro golf seems to be saying it is ok to say whatever you want, racist or not, behind closed doors? They are worried they got caught not that the comment was made.

The comment was racist and the fact pro golf defends its use has little to do with Williams being a racist or not. Did we ever expect tiger to be a shining beacon of social values in the turgid environment that is pro golf and its deep South county club logic?

Tiger needs to protect what is left of his image and saying nothing seems to suit that agenda better than kicking up a fuss.

As for Williams he sounds more and more of a fool as the days go by.
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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:29 am

McLaren wrote:Is anyone else thinking that the most worrying thing to come out of this episode is that pro golf seems to be saying it is ok to say whatever you want, racist or not, behind closed doors? They are worried they got caught not that the comment was made.

The comment was racist and the fact pro golf defends its use has little to do with Williams being a racist or not. Did we ever expect tiger to be a shining beacon of social values in the turgid environment that is pro golf and its deep South county club logic?

Tiger needs to protect what is left of his image and saying nothing seems to suit that agenda better than kicking up a fuss.

As for Williams he sounds more and more of a fool as the days go by.

Mac, it isn't against the law to hold racist, homophobic, xenophobic views etc as long as you don't air those views in public.
We still have a general right to free speech.

Now, while those views are generally not acceptable, the right to free thought at least is part of the reason that we are remembering the fallen on Sunday.
We are not a fascist state, and while rightly we don't like to see people express disgraceful views on such topics in public, they certainly have a right to hold their beliefs, whether those are right or wrong.

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Post by MustPuttBetter Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:33 am

McLaren wrote:Is anyone else thinking that the most worrying thing to come out of this episode is that pro golf seems to be saying it is ok to say whatever you want, racist or not, behind closed doors? They are worried they got caught not that the comment was made.

The comment was racist and the fact pro golf defends its use has little to do with Williams being a racist or not. Did we ever expect tiger to be a shining beacon of social values in the turgid environment that is pro golf and its deep South county club logic?

Tiger needs to protect what is left of his image and saying nothing seems to suit that agenda better than kicking up a fuss.

As for Williams he sounds more and more of a fool as the days go by.

We've had this discussion and whilst you state it as fact most of this is simply your opinion.

Williams is a fool though, there is no doubt of that
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Post by mystiroakey Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:38 am

"No doubt Terry will use the same defence, it was just a joke, my best friends are black.,........"

lol the 'i have black mates' excuse haha.

cant believ steve mentioned that no one from NZ can be racist andn even mutilcultural- He might change his mind if i took him out in croydon for a night out. He has a serious lack of understanding about the real world- why people may be racist~(and not actually be seriously bad people), and how its impossible and ludicrous to suggest that A new zealand is multicultural and B that multicutural communities cant be racist.

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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:43 am

Exactly Oakey, Australia is very multicultural but there is a fairly prominent racist atmosphere towards Aboriginies, I'm sure it's replicated towards Maori's to some degree too.


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Post by mystiroakey Tue 08 Nov 2011, 10:54 am

i have seen films, i havent been there but i understand why people are racist and its something that is part of life- its all about not saying the stupid things really. I have put my foot in it before with a co worker- and i felt the world was gonna sink lol. A racist engineer that works for me said he had left the gym and was showering at home(he is racist and possibly has no option but to be due to circumstances) I asked him why he didnt shower at the gym- he siad because its full of blacks. I said "what full of blacks". My sales girl who is black heard and it was uncomfortable to say the least. I said it must be because he has a ssmall todger- so i suppose going the racial route that at least is a sort of compliment

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Post by McLaren Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:01 am

Super

Even if the “say what you want behind closed doors” argument was valid would you not think an organisation, or group of organisations, like pro golf would want to at least portray the image that they were not racist behind closed doors? Legally you may be able to make unsavoury comments in private company but morally and for the greater good can you really condone it?
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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:04 am

Mac, I'm not condoning it, but it isn't against the law. It isn't as if the agenda of the evening was to engage in racist conversation. I'm sure there are things you say behind closed doors that other people might find offensive.

It's a bit like talking about Doak, nobody wants to hear about it, but we can't deny your rights to hold those views.


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Post by Maverick Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:17 am

super_realist wrote:Mac, I'm not condoning it, but it isn't against the law. It isn't as if the agenda of the evening was to engage in racist conversation. I'm sure there are things you say behind closed doors that other people might find offensive.

It's a bit like talking about Doak, nobody wants to hear about it, but we can't deny your rights to hold those views.

Should be a hanging offence...

Can't believe were going over this all again though we've already had one thread closed off over it. End of the day what anyone thinks of Racism is purely down to context and opinion. Mac you clearly believe it was a racist comment, yet Woods whom you idolise, clearly states Williams is not a racist and he would know him better than any of us on here.


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Post by Davie Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:27 am

Mav - I think what it boils down to is the difference between being a racist and someone making a racist statement.

I'd be inclined to believe Tiger as he knows SW better than most people, if he states categorically that SW is NOT a racist - yet I still think the comment was a racist remark

A fine line of distinction perhaps but possibly the only explanation

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Post by McLaren Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:33 am

Notice Tiger said Stevie was not a racist, he did not say that comment was not racist. I care little about Williams but rather the idea that it is ok to make racist remarks without reprimand of any form within the inner circles of pro golf. We need only to look at the type of sexist remarks that came from Vijay to see that other forms of discrimination will pretty much go unpunished in the game.

You would like to think any payer or person associated with the game using any discriminatory remarks or actions would be fined heavily and forced to make amends. I class even one statement with such intent to be of the most serious offence and cannot understand why the vast majority in the world of golf are happy to brush this off as such a piddling affair.
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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:38 am

Mac, what do you expect to be done? Have you never said anything which could cause offence? He's apologised. end of story.

There are more serious things in the world to wring your hands about than a throwaway term, that even the subject of the "offending" term has dismissed.

Discrimination exists in every part of the world, it's completely unrealistic to expect Golf to be whiter than white (oops, sorry Guardian readers) and so sanitised.


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Post by Maverick Tue 08 Nov 2011, 11:39 am

McLaren wrote:Notice Tiger said Stevie was not a racist, he did not say that comment was not racist. I care little about Williams but rather the idea that it is ok to make racist remarks without reprimand of any form within the inner circles of pro golf. We need only to look at the type of sexist remarks that came from Vijay to see that other forms of discrimination will pretty much go unpunished in the game.

You would like to think any payer or person associated with the game using any discriminatory remarks or actions would be fined heavily and forced to make amends. I class even one statement with such intent to be of the most serious offence and cannot understand why the vast majority in the world of golf are happy to brush this off as such a piddling affair.

Who said anything about being happy to brush it off, it's more a case of people simply wanting to move on with their lives and not dwell on the ramblings of a self obsessed moron.

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Post by McLaren Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:00 pm

Mav

If the correct actions are taken there is no need to dwell on the issue. The correct action of course being that players and officials strait away condemn the remark and make it clear that racism, whatever the context, is out of line. They should not have been queuing up to claim it was locker room chat not meant for public consumption and that someone that makes it ok.

It is only because the correct actions were not taken that we need to review what is up with pro golf and its inability to move with the times.
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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:05 pm

Good grief Mac, you just don't get it.
People in all walks of life say things in the heat of the moment, out of context or are miscontrued. Would you jail them?
Some of your own posts have been fairly close to the bone at times.
As I said, he's an idiot, but he's apologised, so why can you not accept that it is left at that. Either way, governing bodies do not have any powers to do anything in this regard.

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Post by Lairdy Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:16 pm

I agree with Mac that it wasnt delt with accordingly in the first instance. I dont think anyones calling for jail etc just a decent reaction and it is worrying that perhaps we never got that. Whats so wrong is saying that?

Forgetting the initial reactions its early doors and with the pga tours history on discipline I'd be shocked if they dont, and didnt have the powers to, discipline him somehow.

If it was say someone like Sabattini that made the comments (not that I think in anyway way shape or form he would say such a thing) then pretty sure we'd find him MIA for a few months when the season starts. That might still happen with regards to playing, sorry, carrying on the pga tour but even so an example should be made soon with a suspension announced and called up infront of Finchem (and O'Grady?) <- I assume both? Was that the problem here? Who was in charge? For me Finchem should have stepped up. He caddies for a player who predominately plays on his tour.

Another sad part of this was the angle that the writers on golf.com put on it. Worried about golfs image in the eyes of golf haters - their words - was the first thing said about the issue. That's more than just a bit astonishing for me.


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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:23 pm

Lairdy,
I agree if it had been at or in the midst of a tournament or was somehow premeditated or done in a more public manner, but appears it wasn't at an official function of the PGA/European Tour. It was a caddies award dinner so I don't see how the PGA or European Tour could do anything other than voice disapproval.

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Post by McLaren Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:29 pm

Super

Even if legally there is little the PGA or European tour could do to impose sanctions on Williams do you not think the likes of McDowell and other pro’s who defended him could have came out with a message that more strongly codenamed his racism?

Thanks for the support Lairdy, I was beginning to think V2 golf was happy with racism in the game and cared little about anyone doing anything about it.
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Post by mystiroakey Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:34 pm

Mclarean do you know what was said and the exact context of what it was- because i dont have a scooby. and i cant really judge otherwise.

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Post by Maverick Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:35 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Even if legally there is little the PGA or European tour could do to impose sanctions on Williams do you not think the likes of McDowell and other pro’s who defended him could have came out with a message that more strongly codenamed his racism?

Thanks for the support Lairdy, I was beginning to think V2 golf was happy with racism in the game and cared little about anyone doing anything about it.

Could you be missing the point anymore Mac, no-one on he has said they are happy with Racism in the game nor have they said they don't care for anyone not doing something about it. In fact if you bother to read back over the other thread you'll in fact every said racism is not acceptable. However the issue you seem to have is that some people do not constrew Williams words as racism. To some it was not a racist comment, to you and others it was. thats very different from saying we don't care about racism.

Really is about time this discussion was ended because to endlessly debate what contitutes racism will never give a definitive answer as some people are more thick skinned than others and can see the light hearted side of certain comments where otheres cannot.

Did Williams mean it in a racist way, no-one except him and this in that room know despite what we may read in the press, but benefit of doubt should go to him in light of tigers comments. Or are you of the school of thought every man is guilty and noone can make a mistake. Or are you yourself simply with your ignorance to others opinion and no knowing the full facts pulling a STEVE.


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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:36 pm

Mac, nobody is condoning racism (or codename as you call it), but this is being blown out of proportion. It was a throwaway remark, he's publically apologised and he's also apologised to your hero about it. It already HAS been dealt with and the subject is closed as far as they are concerned. I can't see what good the PGA/Euro Tour sticking their nose in would do.

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Post by mystiroakey Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:38 pm

ok right i have read it- its abit much- but surely if tiger was white and the same thing happend etc etc. He would still have made the remake- whats the problem guys was it the 'black' part of the statement.

i dont think what he said was racist- i think he has proved how bitter he is with the comment. but saying black means nothing

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Post by mystiroakey Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:44 pm

its basically an easy descripitve word for someone lacking in vocabulary ,who spends the majority of his time around white people, and he was probally drunk

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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:47 pm

I actually find the fake outrage from Mac far more troubling than the original statement which has been dealt with and closed.


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Post by Maverick Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:48 pm

super_realist wrote:I actually find the fake outrage from Mac far more troubling than the original statement which has been dealt with and closed.

Not really a surprise though is it...

As I said, with this ignorance and lack of acceptance, he is clearly pulling a STEVE

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Post by mystiroakey Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:52 pm

i think the main point is is that what is racism- anyone that says they have never felt a racist feeling in there lifes is lieing. We all have the occasional racisit thought. Most of us have said slightly racist things- I think you need to understand that before we can move forward. Anyone that is RACIST through and THROUGH would never work for a black man!

The truth is be honest- Is steve williams much different from yourselves.

Hating a boss that sacked you
and using the word black/white to describe a black/white person!!


time to think a little bit rather than claiming 'murder'.

this is a non story and we dont need it in the press. Its PC gone nuts

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Post by JPX Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:58 pm

On a related subject, does anyone else struggle sometimes to see how the word 'black' to describe someones colour us meant as racial? Just had a colleague try to describe someone he's spoken to and obviously wanted to say "the black lady", stopped himself and said "the coloured lady".

It just amazes me sometimes how the word black is used quite a lot such as MOBO awards, and calling white people white is strangely ok. I have a couple of African friends and they are always calling each other black in a joking way, but wait until the white guy says it.

Is the subject far too out of hand or is it the black society saying do as we say not as we do?

I find it all a bit odd.

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Post by Davie Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:59 pm

Anyone else find it interesting the difference in reaction between this case and the (alleged) John Terry incident?

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Post by Lairdy Tue 08 Nov 2011, 12:59 pm

Players like Daly have been fined and suspended for off course behaviour. Williams wouldnt have been the first and wouldnt have been the last. Not to say it wont happen.

The whole behind closed doors line wasnt the correct way to respond to it. I makes it look even worse. People heard it, it got out and there should have been a heavy slap on the wrist for him, without any sort of excuses thrown in. Its about doing the right thing. Not the correct thing or by the book just the right thing. Certainly hasnt helped the writers on golf.com(big US golf media site) initial concerns of the sports image.

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Post by super_realist Tue 08 Nov 2011, 1:02 pm

I imagine that players probably sign a conduct agreement to be part of a tour. Caddies are not part of any tour, they are employees of the player that pays their wages.

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Post by mystiroakey Tue 08 Nov 2011, 1:05 pm

JPX wrote:On a related subject, does anyone else struggle sometimes to see how the word 'black' to describe someones colour us meant as racial? Just had a colleague try to describe someone he's spoken to and obviously wanted to say "the black lady", stopped himself and said "the coloured lady".

It just amazes me sometimes how the word black is used quite a lot such as MOBO awards, and calling white people white is strangely ok. I have a couple of African friends and they are always calling each other black in a joking way, but wait until the white guy says it.

Is the subject far too out of hand or is it the black society saying do as we say not as we do?

I find it all a bit odd.

its crazy- is black the new N word?

will the N word eventually turn into a hanging offence if said by a white man?

ITS a descriptive use of english to call someone black- if you need to describe someone quickly out of 20 people and one is black- you say black! some people back track and think of another word to use lol- PC gone nuts that one- reminds me of the film CRASH. Are you telling me that emenem hasnt been descrobed as 'the white one' before- lol

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