606v2 Greatest Middle Order Batsmen Rankings

Same format as usual gents, give me your top 10 middle order batsmen since the war.

Toughest one yet, is this.

Some immensely talented names to go alongside those that have forged our impeccable records. Will have to give it some thought.

Fists - what are the rules if someone played before and after the war? Can't think of anyone off hand but suppose someone might come to mind ....

Then they're eligible, I guess.

Good one Fists.

Bradman
Lara
Tendulkar
V Richards
Sobers
Ponting
G Chappell
Dravid
Weekes
Kallis

Bradman, weeks, sobers, miandad, khanai, border, ponting, Lara, sachin, Dravid, Kallis, jayawardene, Richards, Muhammad youseff

I forgot Hutton

Not gonna include Bradman to give the others a chance and cos he was mainly pre-war

How's about this, then and in no particular order?
Sobers
Lara
Tendulkar
Ponting
Dravid
Richards
Weekes
May
G Chappell
Viswanath

1. Don Bradman
2. Sachin Tendulkar
3. Viv Richards
4. Brian Lara
5. Ricky Ponting
6. Rahul Dravid
7. Jacques Kallis
8. Graeme Pollock
9. Garfield Sobers
10. And a left field choice, which many won't agree with..Kevin Pietersen

Why Hutton. Surely nearly all his innings were as an opener?

sirfredperry wrote:Why Hutton. Surely nearly all his innings were as an opener?

Good point

Edited mine.

1.Sachin Tendulkar
2.Don Bradman
3.Jacques Kallis
4.Ricky Ponting
5.Viv Richards
6.Brian Lara
7.Greg Chappell
8.Rahul Dravid
9.Inzamaam Ul-Haq
10.Garry Sobers

Bradman, Tendulkar, Viv Richards, Barrington, G. Pollock, G. Headley, Weekes, G. Chappell, Sobers, N. Harvey.

in no particular order (yet) and this could easily change pretty quickly.

How about a list of ones no one has yet mentioned who are, so to say, bubbling under.
Cowdrey
Barrington
Graveney
Martin Crowe
Walcott
Neil Harvey (should actually be on some lists, I reckon)
Dexter
John Reid
David Boon
Mark Waugh

Bradman
Kallis
Sobers
Lara
Tendulkar
V.Richards
Pollock
Border
Sangakkara
Ponting

Nobody mentioned Barry Richards ? That's a travesty !!

djkbrown2001 wrote:Nobody mentioned Barry Richards ? That's a travesty !!

He's an opener.

ha! beat you to it sirfredperry, I had both Harvey and Barrington on my list. Actually Neil Harvey should be on more lists IMO, fine player. Barry Richards was indeed an opener (and sadly only played 4 tests I think).

cricketfan90 wrote:1.Sachin Tendulkar
2.Don Bradman
3.Jacques Kallis
4.Ricky Ponting
5.Viv Richards
6.Brian Lara
7.Greg Chappell
8.Rahul Dravid
9.Inzamaam Ul-Haq
10.Garry Sobers

You're joking right?

1) Bradman.

Now it gets tough.

From Australia there are so many already, Harvey, G. Chappell, AB, S. Waugh, Ponting all have good shouts at making the top 10. I would rate Ponting and Chappell as the best on that list, so the others for the moment have to wait and see.

Then of course there's Lara and Tendulkar. And Kallis, Kallis has great figures. But I'm inclined not to include Barrington (he didn't make my HoF after all) so in that case I probably shouldn't include Kallis either.

Viv Richards of course has to be in there. Then there's the 3 Ws, and of course George Headley. was Sobers a good enough batsman to be included? Certainly not far off.

Then there's the other indian Dravid. Not as flash but arguably played as many important innings as Sachin himself.

From Pakistan we have Inzaman and of course Javed Miandad. But are they really true greats? Regretfully my list may be Pakistan-free.

A name no one's mentioned yet: Andy Flower. Given how much pressure he was under everytime he went out to bat, his record was extraordinary. But enough to put him in the top 10 of all time?

Did G. Pollock play enough to earn his place? I have a feeling had he played more he'd have been viewed as second after Bradman uncontestably...

Englishmen? Hutton's main exploits came as an opener, Barrington has been discussed. Peter May was a great player, but there are so many...

Let me make a stab (order to follow shortly):
G. Pollock
Viv Richards
Ponting
Tendulkar
G. Chappell
G. Headley
Sobers
Harvey
Dravid

Fists of Fury wrote:
10. And a left field choice, which many won't agree with..Kevin Pietersen

Can I have some of what you've been smoking?

Did G. Pollock play enough to earn his place? I have a feeling had he played more he'd have been viewed as second after Bradman uncontestably...

-----------------------------

Was he that good?
I never saw him play but most good judges say a similar thing to you.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
Barry Richards was indeed an opener (and sadly only played 4 tests I think).

Mad - that's right. He was still a great player though and is rightly in the ICC Hall of Fame. (I only make that point as someone on another thread appears to have hacked into wow's computer and be claiming on his behalf that Marshall's 81 tests were not enough for 'greatness'! )

Mad - no Lara in your ten, deliberate choice?

Mike - Greg Chappell will certainly be in my top ten here

Mike Selig wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:1.Sachin Tendulkar
2.Don Bradman
3.Jacques Kallis
4.Ricky Ponting
5.Viv Richards
6.Brian Lara
7.Greg Chappell
8.Rahul Dravid
9.Inzamaam Ul-Haq
10.Garry Sobers

You're joking right?

what is wrong with my list?

Tendulkar/Bradman
Lara
Ponting
Dravid
Steve Waugh
Kallis

Tendulkar for the fact that he has amassed runs and runs. Lara because he was a pleasure to watch. I never liked Ponting but he has to be there.

Laxman too can get a place but his record in Eng has been wanting.

cricketfan90 wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:1.Sachin Tendulkar
2.Don Bradman
3.Jacques Kallis
4.Ricky Ponting
5.Viv Richards
6.Brian Lara
7.Greg Chappell
8.Rahul Dravid
9.Inzamaam Ul-Haq
10.Garry Sobers

You're joking right?

what is wrong with my list?

Apart from the order of 1 and 2 it's fine. However anyone who doesn't start their list with 1. Bradman will be a serious sticking point for me...

Graeme Pollock was a wonderful player. I remember sitting spellbound as he made 125 on a difficult, seaming pitch at Nottingham in 1965. Put some of the older watchers in mind of Frank Woolley.
Glad that Mad for Chelsea listed Neil Harvey. Always attacking, fabulous player and also a brilliant fielder. Barrington's Test record speaks for itself.
One aspect should not be overlooked. Always easier to make runs in a strong team when the bowlers are demoralised even before you come in to bat. In that respect Lara stands out as he made lot of his runs in a poor side and did it practically on his own. Some of his innings against Murali and against the strong Australians were phenomenal.

sirfredperry wrote:
One aspect should not be overlooked. Always easier to make runs in a strong team when the bowlers are demoralised even before you come in to bat. In that respect Lara stands out as he made lot of his runs in a poor side and did it practically on his own. Some of his innings against Murali and against the strong Australians were phenomenal.

If we are arguing that (and I agree) doesn't that make a stronger case for A. Flower?

Mike Selig wrote:

sirfredperry wrote:
One aspect should not be overlooked. Always easier to make runs in a strong team when the bowlers are demoralised even before you come in to bat. In that respect Lara stands out as he made lot of his runs in a poor side and did it practically on his own. Some of his innings against Murali and against the strong Australians were phenomenal.

If we are arguing that (and I agree) doesn't that make a stronger case for A. Flower?

Yes.

Mike Selig wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:
10. And a left field choice, which many won't agree with..Kevin Pietersen

Can I have some of what you've been smoking?

I've always felt with KP that he has as much talent as pretty much anyone playing the game, and certainly more than holds his own with any other batsman in world cricket at this moment. An immensely talented player, and one that utterly dominates attacks at times (a benchmark I do use a little when assessing greats is just how dominant they are/were). He has gotten out in some ridiculous ways in the past, and you have to think that without some of the nonsense his average would be pushing mid-50's comfortably.

Joint fastest to 4,000 (I think) Test runs alongside the Don, and that has to be taken into consideration, as it shows just how prolific he has been. Like I say, a left field choice, but belongs in such company in my view.

Mike Selig wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

cricketfan90 wrote:1.Sachin Tendulkar
2.Don Bradman
3.Jacques Kallis
4.Ricky Ponting
5.Viv Richards
6.Brian Lara
7.Greg Chappell
8.Rahul Dravid
9.Inzamaam Ul-Haq
10.Garry Sobers

You're joking right?

what is wrong with my list?

Apart from the order of 1 and 2 it's fine. However anyone who doesn't start their list with 1. Bradman will be a serious sticking point for me...

so there wasnt any point in saying, are you joking? then was there!

guildford

let's call my omission of Lara a semi-deliberate omission. Part of the reason I left him out is that (Sachin apart) I've gone for older players in my list, as I felt that most of the people who vote on this list will go primarily for the newer generation (being young as a rule). However, I'm sure you'll agree that all ten names on my list are worthy, and I also felt that Lara to a degree was somewhat flawed. His innings of 400 to my mind while extraordinary was also selfish, as he arguably cost his side the win by batting on for so long (and also he slowed down as the innings went on). Harsh? Maybe, but picking an all-time (post-war) top ten middle-order players was always going to be difficult, and I'm just not sure Lara belongs in that category. He would certainly be between 10 and 20.

guildford again

On the Barry Richards subject, I've sometimes included him in my all-time test XI (going on potential rather than achievement) and much in the same way as I picked Proctor in my top 10 all-rounders, I'll be picking Richards in my top ten openers.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:guildford

let's call my omission of Lara a semi-deliberate omission. Part of the reason I left him out is that (Sachin apart) I've gone for older players in my list, as I felt that most of the people who vote on this list will go primarily for the newer generation (being young as a rule). However, I'm sure you'll agree that all ten names on my list are worthy, and I also felt that Lara to a degree was somewhat flawed. His innings of 400 to my mind while extraordinary was also selfish, as he arguably cost his side the win by batting on for so long (and also he slowed down as the innings went on). Harsh? Maybe, but picking an all-time (post-war) top ten middle-order players was always going to be difficult, and I'm just not sure Lara belongs in that category. He would certainly be between 10 and 20.

Mad - totally understand. Was just interested as to your thinking.

All the names on your list are exceedingly worthy. Inevitably, in restricting it to ten some very fine names have to be left out. Thinking just of the West Indies - Rohan Kanhai, Clive Lloyd, Richie Richardson and the other two of ''the three Ws'' are just some who could sensibly be included.

I'll need to look up the Ws' records ....

am I really the only one to include Barrington so far?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:am I really the only one to include Barrington so far?

You won't be!

He'll certainly be in my list and I'll be very surpised if he's not in the Corporal's ....

Fists of Fury wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:
10. And a left field choice, which many won't agree with..Kevin Pietersen

Can I have some of what you've been smoking?

I've always felt with KP that he has as much talent as pretty much anyone playing the game, and certainly more than holds his own with any other batsman in world cricket at this moment. An immensely talented player, and one that utterly dominates attacks at times (a benchmark I do use a little when assessing greats is just how dominant they are/were). He has gotten out in some ridiculous ways in the past, and you have to think that without some of the nonsense his average would be pushing mid-50's comfortably.

Joint fastest to 4,000 (I think) Test runs alongside the Don, and that has to be taken into consideration, as it shows just how prolific he has been. Like I say, a left field choice, but belongs in such company in my view.

I agree with this entirely. KP is an absolutely special talent, no doubt about that. But cricket is about much more than talent/natural ability (which are terms I don't like as surely mental toughness is a talent?) and the fact that Pietersen has managed to get himself out in so many stupid ways for me doesn't make his achievements more worthwhile.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:guildford again

On the Barry Richards subject, I've sometimes included him in my all-time test XI (going on potential rather than achievement) and much in the same way as I picked Proctor in my top 10 all-rounders, I'll be picking Richards in my top ten openers.

Mad - I'm totally with you on all that.

Richards and Procter plus others such as Barlow and the Pollock brothers had unfulfilled careers due to the viciousness of apartheid and the related test ban upon South Africa. We should judge them on the potential they showed and what they did achieve rather than excluding them from our honours boards and lists on the grounds that they did not play much test cricket when it was mostly impossible for them to do so.

1) Don Bradman
2) Viv Richards
3) Sachin Tendulkar
4) George Headley
5) Wally Hammond
6) Gary Sobers
7) Ken Barrington
8) Brian Lara
9) Greg Chappell
10) Graham Pollock


That's my current list anyway

Hammond was pre-war though (or did he play a bit afterwards as well?)...

good list hoggy. Have just seen that Hammond did indeed play a little post-war (I didn't think he had), so he would have to make my list, possibly in place of Sobers or Weekes.

Mike Selig wrote:Hammond was pre-war though (or did he play a bit afterwards as well?)...

Whoops yep. Forgot the post war caveat.
Hammond did play after the war, but he wasn't that good by then.
Bring in Ponting then, put him at 10 and move everyone else up a notch.

Edit it for me if you don't mind, Hog.

Thinking about it Fists, George Headley wasn't half the player post-war as he was before it, so I'll tae him out as well, if that's OK.
So my final 10 would read:

1) Don Bradman
2) Viv Richards
3) Sachin Tendulkar
4) Gary Sobers
5) Ken Barrington
6) Brian Lara
7) Greg Chappell
8) Graham Pollock
9) Ricky Ponting
10) Clyde Walcott

Thanks.

I'm leaving Sobers out as he is the No 1 all rounder. I don't know enough about Headley and Walcott - but more than willing to promote them if I had time for research.... Thought Kanhai deserved a shout.....

Don Bradman
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Ricky Ponting
Brian Lara
Graeme Pollock
Ken Barrington (naturally!)
Rahul Dravid
Javed Miandad
Rohan Kanhai

Can I make my list official now?

1) Don Bradman
2) Graeme Pollock
3) Sachin Tendulkar
4) Wally Hammond (admittedly played mostly pre-war but played post-war too so qualifies)
5) Viv Richards
6) George Headley
7) Ken Barrington
8) Neil Harvey
9) Everton Weekes
10) Greg Chappell

The top 7 certainly look about right to me, the next three are more of a toss-up, and could change fairly regularly (as well as the order) depending on my mood at the time, but overall, looks a good list.

GG wrote:Bradman
Kallis
Sobers
Lara
Tendulkar
V.Richards
Pollock
Border
Sangakkara
Ponting

Kallis at 2?

Sanga ahead of Dravid?

sanga is a very good player, but i wouldnt have him in my top 10 just yet. Maybe at the end of his career, but not just yet.

cricketfan90 wrote:sanga is a very good player, but i wouldnt have him in my top 10 just yet. Maybe at the end of his career, but not just yet.