Kevin Pietersen - His Legacy.

First topic message reminder :

Gregers is going to have a field day with this one...

Now, before I get started, a lot of this is clearly hypothetical at this moment in time, so there will be differing scenarios based upon his performances in the next few years.

Kevin Pietersen is a figure that often divides opinion amongst English cricket fans. Many love the flamboyance, the celebrity status and most importantly the weight of runs that comes with KP, whereas there are of course no small amount that believe him to be brash, arrogant, and accuse him of throwing his wicket away all too often, which they say prevents him from being a great of the game.

As we all know, Kevin has an English mother and a South African father, and due to his being born in South Africa you hear many referring to him as 'the South African' (or one of them!!).

What I'd like to know, is how do you rate Pietersen personally? Furthermore, once all is said and done do you see him being regarded as a great of the English game, possibly even world cricket?

As I referred to at the beginning of this article, a lot depends on Kevin's returns over the next few years of his career. At this moment in time he is averaging in excess of 50 in Test cricket, almost a benchmark for greatness, and is well set to become England's highest run scorer/century maker, alongside Alastair Cook (who will eventually top both), I'd say.

Should he do so, and let's say he ends his Test career with 9000 runs and in excess of 25 Test centuries, would you regard him as an all time great? Personally, I would, and I already do view KP as a great cricketer. A consistent run scorer, very good at converting 50's into big 100's, and an innovative and exciting player that can destroy and demoralise attacks in the manner that Viv Richards et al were known to do.

Should he suffer a drop in form and fade long before such figures are reached, I'd still be very much tempted to class him as a great of the English game.

Like I said though, KP divides opinion like no other, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Gregers, you need not apply, I already know yours

Thanks

Demon Racer wrote:So let me get it straight Pietersen, apart from a few decent knocks on spicy pitches, is deemed 'great', yet a similar player like Shewag is a flat track bully? Now I'm confused...

Read the last paragraph of my last post

Mike Selig wrote:I never said KP was "great". And I never said Shewag was a "flat track bully". You've made several comments which I've asked you to expand on and you've failed to. I see no point in continuing this debate further.

With regards to Pietersen's technical limitations, I've already made the point of the weakness of his off side game(unless the pitch is a road), the lack of backfoot gameplay(please note backfoot game doesn't include wild front foot pull shots) and weakness against left arm spinners. I guess you ignored my other posts...

Demon Racer wrote:So let me get it straight Pietersen, apart from a few decent knocks on spicy pitches, is deemed 'great', yet a similar player like Shewag is a flat track bully? Now I'm confused...

I wouldn't call him a "flat track bully" (it's harsh and generally a silly criticism for English supporters to make considering how our own batsmen tend to struggle on the flat sub-continent pitches), but I presume that people's reasoning is that he averages 28 in England, 20 in New Zealand and 25 in South Africa; the three places where the ball typically nips around more.

m@tt wrote:

Demon Racer wrote:So let me get it straight Pietersen, apart from a few decent knocks on spicy pitches, is deemed 'great', yet a similar player like Shewag is a flat track bully? Now I'm confused...

I wouldn't call him a "flat track bully" (it's harsh and generally a silly criticism for English supporters to make considering how our own batsmen tend to struggle on the flat sub-continent pitches), but I presume that people's reasoning is that he averages 28 in England, 20 in New Zealand and 25 in South Africa; the three places where the ball typically nips around more.

Well considering Shewag's style of play, he's all ways gonna struggle in swinging conditions. He might come of once in a while, IIRC he has a Test hundred in England and South Africa, so he has the capacity if he wants to play a 'proper' innings.

but you said nearly all KP's hundreds were on flat decks, I showed in my post that about half of them were on spicy trakcs, that's wayyyyyyyyyyy better than Sehwag. I'm not sure I'd call Sehwag a flat track bully as such, but there's no doubt he struggles when the ball nips around, much more than KP does.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:but you said nearly all KP's hundreds were on flat decks, I showed in my post that about half of them were on spicy trakcs, that's wayyyyyyyyyyy better than Sehwag. I'm not sure I'd call Sehwag a flat track bully as such, but there's no doubt he struggles when the ball nips around, much more than KP does.

There's a straightforward reason for that. Pietersen grow up in South Africa against the swinging bowl, then honed his game in England against the swinging ball. If Shewag had been born in South Africa/England, there's a high probability that his batting style would be considerably different.

possibly, but you said KP only made runs on flat pitches (or at least because the pitches are flatter). I showed that he doesn't struggle on spicy pitches. If anything, he struggles in subcontinent conditions more.

Demon Racer wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:I never said KP was "great". And I never said Shewag was a "flat track bully". You've made several comments which I've asked you to expand on and you've failed to. I see no point in continuing this debate further.

With regards to Pietersen's technical limitations, I've already made the point of the weakness of his off side game(unless the pitch is a road), the lack of backfoot gameplay(please note backfoot game doesn't include wild front foot pull shots) and weakness against left arm spinners. I guess you ignored my other posts...

None of those are technical points... They are highly debateable aspects of him game, but not technical points.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:possibly, but you said KP only made runs on flat pitches (or at least because the pitches are flatter). I showed that he doesn't struggle on spicy pitches. If anything, he struggles in subcontinent conditions more.

Whilst I may have over hyped Pietersen's love of Lords/Oval, it remains to be seen if he can score toughruns against high class attacks on tough pitches. Of the examples you gave, New Zealand and Sri Lanka(barring Magical Murali) these attacks aren't very strong.He has played a couple of stand out knocks Oval 2005, Oval 2008 etc.

Mike Selig wrote:

Demon Racer wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:I never said KP was "great". And I never said Shewag was a "flat track bully". You've made several comments which I've asked you to expand on and you've failed to. I see no point in continuing this debate further.

With regards to Pietersen's technical limitations, I've already made the point of the weakness of his off side game(unless the pitch is a road), the lack of backfoot gameplay(please note backfoot game doesn't include wild front foot pull shots) and weakness against left arm spinners. I guess you ignored my other posts...

None of those are technical points... They are highly debateable aspects of him game, but not technical points.

Being unable to play off the backfoot/slow left arm spin etc isn't a technical point? You learn something new everyday...

that 142 against SL was a brilliant knock. Murali picked up 6 wickets and KP made him look ordinary while the rest of the side floundered, it was astounding.

His first test innings is a perfect example of him scoring runs against a high-quality (arguably greatest ever) attack (McGrath at Lords was nigh on unplayable, but KP straight-drove him for 6!). NZ are always a tough side to face in swinging conditions (as shown by the low scores from the rest of the team) also.

Seems to me you're reproaching KP for being born in the wrong era. The only team he averages less than 40 against is Pakistan, that for me suggests he's capable of scoring against any bowling attack.

if you take out trott who has only played 23 tests you have to go back over 40 years to find the last english test batsman before pietersen to average over 50 in tests

why are we even still having this debate ?

Demon Racer wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

Demon Racer wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:I never said KP was "great". And I never said Shewag was a "flat track bully". You've made several comments which I've asked you to expand on and you've failed to. I see no point in continuing this debate further.

With regards to Pietersen's technical limitations, I've already made the point of the weakness of his off side game(unless the pitch is a road), the lack of backfoot gameplay(please note backfoot game doesn't include wild front foot pull shots) and weakness against left arm spinners. I guess you ignored my other posts...

None of those are technical points... They are highly debateable aspects of him game, but not technical points.

Being unable to play off the backfoot/slow left arm spin etc isn't a technical point? You learn something new everyday...

Clearly you do. Being unable to play a shot isn't a technical point, it is a result of numerous factors, some of which may be technical.

E.g. getting out LBW constantly to spin isn't a technical issue, but it's usually brought by by the technical issue of planting your front foot down the wicket too early.

KP's legacy wont be in question

end of

Been reading thru some of these posts again. I was at Lord's in 05 when Pietersen played his first Test innings. He was under massive pressure. On the second morning he flat batted McGrath straight down the ground for four, drove him thru the covers for four and then hoisted Warne for two massive sixes into the old Father Time stand.
The fun was cut off by a brilliant boundary catch, but he had set out his stall. Would anyone SERIOUSLY not want him in their Test side ? If you omit him, you have to ask "Who's better?"

Completely agree, sir fred.

sirfredperry wrote:Been reading thru some of these posts again. I was at Lord's in 05 when Pietersen played his first Test innings. He was under massive pressure. On the second morning he flat batted McGrath straight down the ground for four, drove him thru the covers for four and then hoisted Warne for two massive sixes into the old Father Time stand.
The fun was cut off by a brilliant boundary catch, but he had set out his stall. Would anyone SERIOUSLY not want him in their Test side ? If you omit him, you have to ask "Who's better?"

thats the point i was trying to make above, pietersen is the only english batsman since barrington, who retired in 1968, to have a test average of 50+ over a decent number of tests. trott hasn't played enough tests yet for his average to compare and cook is hovering just below the 50 mark.

Its quite clear why England didn't have any batsen that averaged over 50 since the late 60s, they can't produce anyone that good.

Pietersen, Trott etc are thriving in these modern day pitches, where bat>ball.

Demon Racer wrote:Its quite clear why England didn't have any batsen that averaged over 50 since the late 60s, they can't produce anyone that good.

Pietersen, Trott etc are thriving in these modern day pitches, where bat>ball.

*yawn*

rich1uk wrote:

Demon Racer wrote:Its quite clear why England didn't have any batsen that averaged over 50 since the late 60s, they can't produce anyone that good.

Pietersen, Trott etc are thriving in these modern day pitches, where bat>ball.

*yawn*

As a kid I got that feeling watching inept English batsmen get blown away. English batting collapses where 10 a penny

Well they're not any more, and this particular South African seems rather bitter at the fact that we are the finest side in Test cricket...shame, really, that you can't let us have our glory after years in the shade!

All South Africa could produce for us was a ban spin bowler with an attitude problem, a workaday county player with slight mental problems, a wicket keeper with a jelly bean addiction who couldnt catch, a massively overated opener, and Jade fricken Dernbach.
It to a Zimbabwean to turn them into a good team

Gregers is talking tosh as always regarding Ganguly?

he even said Ganguly was better.

How low will you sink Gregers?It looked funny at the start but its not starting to urine me off.

shanky

where have you been?

I have always wondered whether Demon is Sonic.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:shanky

where have you been?

Studies

Hope they're going well, shank.

Fists of Fury wrote:Hope they're going well, shank.

Not really.

always the way, mate. You'll be ok.