Vitali

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Most here have predicted a Vitali win over haye. If (for me when) Haye wins, will Vitali suddenly become old and washed up and no credit given to Haye?

J.Benson II wrote:

azania wrote: If (for me when) Haye wins, will Vitali suddenly become old and washed up and no credit given to Haye?

All of Haye's wins at HW have been against opponents that were old or washed up, yet it didnt stop fans giving him credit.
Anyway, if Haye does beat Vitali than of course the age factor will be mentioned. After all, Haye's only hope of winning is based on the belief that Vitali has deteriorated enough for him to take advantage.

If Haye goes in there with a tactic of believing that Vit is old and washed up then he'll get beaten up and beaten badly.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

rowley wrote:Alex nobody is arguing he has not slowed down, the point is has he shown sufficient signs of slowing down to give Haye a chance or has he showed a marked slowing down in his last couple of fights, would have to say no on both counts.

The level of opposition wasn't much cop to capitalise on that fact.

And Haye is no different, is the counter argument.

I believe he is. He's a far superior boxer to Adamek and Briggs.

Perhaps he is, but he hasnt really indicated in his performances he has the neccessary ability or style to succeed where others have failed. I would point specifically to the fights with Valuev and Wlad. Wlad, you will say is much better I am sure, but Valuev isnt and what people are really getting at is that why should we expect a vast improvement on these showings?

I understand where your coming from but I think its just a case of people not really seeing much in Haye to be optimistic even accounting for an ageing Vitali.

Hayes superiority didnt really translate into anything obvious over Valuev. I scored the fight to him but thought he only won 3 rounds decisevely and didnt see anything in there to make me think he would beat Vitali.

Lets ignore the Wlad fight. Haye would never beat him in a month of sundays even if they were the same height weight or whatever.

Against Valuev he employed the absolute correct strategy. Hit and not get hit. He didn't want Valuev leaning on him and tiring him out or getting to close to him. That tactic wouldn't work against Vit. When he was a cruiser weight he was more varied in his attacks and style. He used his jab more to set up combinations. He has neglected that against the heavies. He needs to go back to that. Use his speed to create angles. Vit isn't going to chase him as that is not his style. If he does, then Haye should step in and mix it up. VK is very slow and ponderous even at his peak. He is much slower now.

The cruisers are a whole different ball game to the heavyweights both in terms of size and calibre. Vitali is a quality heavyweight. Hayes performances against vastly smaller and less talented cruisers would only have limited relevance for me. He fights the way he does at heavyweight because he cant get away with what he did at cruiser.

I would see his Valuev tactics as being exactly the same sort of things he wants to happen against Vitali. Avoid him, dont let him lean or manhandle, dont let him hurt you. I think Haye is going to adopt the same kind of approach again. Look to make Vitali come in open and try and land on him. You can praise his gameplan for Valuev, which I would agree was correct. It was his execution that left me with doubts.

But regardless, I see what your point is. I would just differ on Hayes cpabilities to deal with an opponent of Vitalis size and calibre.

My point is that Haye must fight as if he were a cruiser fighting a taller guy. If he goes in there with a safety first approach then its game over.

I reckon he has the talent to adapt and the knowledge that in order to win he has to adapt.

azania wrote:

NathanDB10 wrote:I would say there is a difference between chasing him and cutting the ring off. You would think Adamek would be significantly faster and lighter on his feet, yet VK got to him easily.

Did you see Adamek's fight with Cloud (or was it Dawson). He was poor. Very poor. Also his fight with Grant at HW which was supposed to mimic the height and size of VK. He was shocking. I've seen his fights at CW also and I simply did not rate him. Adamek is no way as good as Haye. If you use that fight as a template as to how good VK is then you're making a huge mistake.

No, I realise Adamek is a somewhat limited fighter, I was just using it to illustrate the point that just becuase somone is significantly smaller/lighter than VK, it doesn't mean they are hugely faster than VK, he still gets to them, and once that happens it becomes a matter of boxing ability, both areas Haye is inferior IMO.

He constantly goes on about his speed, but I don't see it as far as his footwork is concerned, I don't think he can keep away from Vit for long enough, he won't get in range to hit often enough and not get hit in return. Basically, unless he suddenly transforms into some Frazier/Tyson hybrid, I don't see how he can even win a round. The guy is a pot-shotter, the style just doesn't work against the K's.

Everyone says how one-dimensional the K's are, yet once they get in the ring with them, it suddenly dawns on them just how good that one dimension is. The other HW's just don't have the style to put them off their stride.

NathanDB10 wrote:

azania wrote:

NathanDB10 wrote:I would say there is a difference between chasing him and cutting the ring off. You would think Adamek would be significantly faster and lighter on his feet, yet VK got to him easily.

Did you see Adamek's fight with Cloud (or was it Dawson). He was poor. Very poor. Also his fight with Grant at HW which was supposed to mimic the height and size of VK. He was shocking. I've seen his fights at CW also and I simply did not rate him. Adamek is no way as good as Haye. If you use that fight as a template as to how good VK is then you're making a huge mistake.

No, I realise Adamek is a somewhat limited fighter, I was just using it to illustrate the point that just becuase somone is significantly smaller/lighter than VK, it doesn't mean they are hugely faster than VK, he still gets to them, and once that happens it becomes a matter of boxing ability, both areas Haye is inferior IMO.

He constantly goes on about his speed, but I don't see it as far as his footwork is concerned, I don't think he can keep away from Vit for long enough, he won't get in range to hit often enough and not get hit in return. Basically, unless he suddenly transforms into some Frazier/Tyson hybrid, I don't see how he can even win a round. The guy is a pot-shotter, the style just doesn't work against the K's.

Everyone says how one-dimensional the K's are, yet once they get in the ring with them, it suddenly dawns on them just how good that one dimension is. The other HW's just don't have the style to put them off their stride.

Its hardly a good point to illustrate when the opponent is very limited. Any boxer can look good against a punch-bag.

Haye hasn't always been a pot shotter. He's only used that against the giants in the division. To get past Vit, you dont have to be as good as Tyson/Frazier hybrid. You need to be talented, which he is. And smart which I believe him to be.

Lets be honest here guys, Azania is predicting Haye to win for the simple fact that if the impossible happened he could gloat and gloat and gloat about it.

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:He seems a bit chunkier come to think of it but honestly thought Adamek would give him some problems with his speed and angles but the way he was shut down from the start doesn't bode well for Haye. I always think VK gets a bad rep for being slow but he seems to have fairly quick hands for a heavyweight and throws a hell of a lot of leather. If he's slowing down then I see it as just slightly.

I knew Adamek wouldn't give him any problems. Adamek had major problems with a very poor Grant and even with McBride. The only surprise was that it wasn't ended sooner.

So not you slightly see him slowing down. 2 posts ago there was no evidence of it. Wumming?

Hardly wumming Azania, it's perfectly normal and acceptable for someone to change their mind on something when presented with an intelligent argument from someone with a slightly differing opinion. Why would we bother debating anything if we all had rigid opinions that can't possibly changed? You on the other hand present illogical nonsense that can't be taken seriously.

Super D Boon wrote:

azania wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:He seems a bit chunkier come to think of it but honestly thought Adamek would give him some problems with his speed and angles but the way he was shut down from the start doesn't bode well for Haye. I always think VK gets a bad rep for being slow but he seems to have fairly quick hands for a heavyweight and throws a hell of a lot of leather. If he's slowing down then I see it as just slightly.

I knew Adamek wouldn't give him any problems. Adamek had major problems with a very poor Grant and even with McBride. The only surprise was that it wasn't ended sooner.

So not you slightly see him slowing down. 2 posts ago there was no evidence of it. Wumming?

Hardly wumming Azania, it's perfectly normal and acceptable for someone to change their mind on something when presented with an intelligent argument from someone with a slightly differing opinion. Why would we bother debating anything if we all had rigid opinions that can't possibly changed? You on the other hand present illogical nonsense that can't be taken seriously.

Why is my opinion illogical? I have given my opinions as to why I believe Haye can and will beat Vit. I have supplied my reasoning behind those opinions and have been consistant with it. I have stated that Vit is more vulnerable now than before and Haye can capitalise. Many cited the Adamek example. My response was that anyone who struggled with a slower Grant cannot possibly beat Vit. Wlad is a far superior boxer than Vit. He beat Haye comprehensively as I predicted. But Haye did better than I imagined in that fight. Enough for me to suggest that beating Vit is more than likely especially after Vit's showing against Adamek and Briggs.

You on the other hand have rubbished my opinions, thrown jibes and all of a sudden done a 180 and agreed with what I have been saying about Vit.

azania wrote: But Haye did better than I imagined in that fight.

Fear that reflects rather worse on your powers of imagination than it reflects well on Haye's abilities.

Azania, I simply agreed with Manos that Vitali might be slightly slowing down, you on the other hand have made it much more stark saying you have seen "glaring signs of deterioration". Not the same thing.

Even if Haye does win, I don't think you can take credit for your insight because I can't see any sense to it.

rowley wrote:

azania wrote: But Haye did better than I imagined in that fight.

Fear that reflects rather worse on your powers of imagination than it reflects well on Haye's abilities.

Ha. I thought Haye was going to get sparked in the later rounds after a complete shut out. Or at the very least tasted the canvass. By staying upright and 'fighting' back in the 12th he did better than I thought.

I knew Haye had nothing to worry Vlad, little toe or not. Damn even if he had 3 legs and 4 arms he cant beat Wlad.

Vit is a different matter.

Super D Boon wrote:Azania, I simply agreed with Manos that Vitali might be slightly slowing down, you on the other hand have made it much more stark saying you have seen "glaring signs of deterioration". Not the same thing.

Even if Haye does win, I don't think you can take credit for your insight because I can't see any sense to it.

I dont see the slowing down as slight. In his comeback fight against Peters, I noticed a marked slowing down in his punches and footwork. To me it was glaring. Maybe not to you I'll give you that.

What sense cant you see? Has he or hasn't he slowed down?

Well I can yield to sight slowing but not a massive slowing as you seem to think.

The sense I can't see is around how you feel Vit has slowed down significantly, how his defence and reflexes are not as good when he's only lost about 2 rounds since the Peters win. I don't know ho many rounds that is but it must be around 2/3 rounds lost out of about 60/70 rounds fought.

I also don't see why you think Haye has the kind of gameplan that can beat Vitali given he fights the same way every time I see him fight ie. ambush raids.

But hey ho!

Yeah, this is the one thing that I wonder with wht you say Azania... What is the thing that makes you twist around and think that Haye will actually fight in a different way? Given the fact he has only really ever fought one way at Heavyweight and is facing an opponent that probably punches harder than him and is a bit more awkward than his brother?

He was still quick enough to keep away from his last opponent, who was smaller and quicker, basically jabbing his head off for ten rounds.

So, I think you are seeing things!

Super D Boon wrote:Well I can yield to sight slowing but not a massive slowing as you seem to think.

The sense I can't see is around how you feel Vit has slowed down significantly, how his defence and reflexes are not as good when he's only lost about 2 rounds since the Peters win. I don't know ho many rounds that is but it must be around 2/3 rounds lost out of about 60/70 rounds fought.

I also don't see why you think Haye has the kind of gameplan that can beat Vitali given he fights the same way every time I see him fight ie. ambush raids.

But hey ho!

Yep, Vit has looked invincible, but that has been against very average opposition. You say all Haye does it ambush raids. Not as a cruiser he wasn't. If he brings his CW game to the fight I see him winning. If he doesn't then he'll lose. I think he will.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Yeah, this is the one thing that I wonder with wht you say Azania... What is the thing that makes you twist around and think that Haye will actually fight in a different way? Given the fact he has only really ever fought one way at Heavyweight and is facing an opponent that probably punches harder than him and is a bit more awkward than his brother?

He knows the tactics against Wlad will not work and will have to be more aggressive. At his peak, VK was not as fast or had the footwork of Wlad. That will give Haye the chance to slip Vit's jab which imo is just an outstretched arm at worst and a push at best. He lacked snap back in the day and doesn't have it now.

Az, i will bet you 1 months worth of self imposed ban that if Haye fights Vitali then Vitali wins.

Just like Marquez would be flattened in 6...

AlexHuckerby wrote:Just like Marquez would be flattened in 6...

I am more certain of this one.

And i didn't think his opponent was 'still' that limited in dealing with someone who didn't just brawl.

Don't get me wrong, i want Haye to do well and repair the damage he did against Wlad but for me he gets his head taken off

coxy0001 wrote:Az, i will bet you 1 months worth of self imposed ban that if Haye fights Vitali then Vitali wins.

No problem. Do you want to add some riders to it?

I don't see the point in exiling yourself from a forum because your viewpoint is different to others...that is kind of the point of having a forum isn't it?

sodhat wrote:I don't see the point in exiling yourself from a forum because your viewpoint is different to others...that is kind of the point of having a forum isn't it?

Shut up man we are on the verge of being shut of coxy or Azania for a month, don't spoil things.

sodhat wrote:I don't see the point in exiling yourself from a forum because your viewpoint is different to others...that is kind of the point of having a forum isn't it?

Coxy needs a break and a life. This forum and its members are like his family.

Rowley, you want me gone after my absense. I thought you of all people missed my wonderful insight into the oldies.

azania wrote:

sodhat wrote:I don't see the point in exiling yourself from a forum because your viewpoint is different to others...that is kind of the point of having a forum isn't it?

Coxy needs a break and a life. This forum and its members are like his family.

...then he must be the proverbial 'ginger step-child'.

azania wrote:Rowley, you want me gone after my absense. I thought you of all people missed my wonderful insight into the oldies.

I missed you the way I miss Hi-Di-Hi and Bros.

Anyone else have a terrible feeling that we're all gearing ourselves up for a fight which isn't actually going to happen?

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:Rowley, you want me gone after my absense. I thought you of all people missed my wonderful insight into the oldies.

I missed you the way I miss Hi-Di-Hi and Bros.

Hi-Di-Hi was class Jeff! I liked the silly humour enveloped in a peculiar sense of melancholy and sadness.

Bros though were absolute pants yes.

88Chris05 wrote:Anyone else have a terrible feeling that we're all gearing ourselves up for a fight which isn't actually going to happen?

What are you talking about? This is boxing, all fights happen.

You coming to Vegas for Mayweather vs Pacquiao next year?

rowley wrote:

sodhat wrote:I don't see the point in exiling yourself from a forum because your viewpoint is different to others...that is kind of the point of having a forum isn't it?

Shut up man we are on the verge of being shut of coxy or Azania for a month, don't spoil things.

You missed me enough for a week, imagine a month

And Azania, just the flat bet suits me fine. I fear the fight will never go ahead though thus causing Rowley to potentially enter into a nervous breakdown

....besides I used to do a great Gladys Pugh impersonation as a kid.

88Chris05 wrote:Anyone else have a terrible feeling that we're all gearing ourselves up for a fight which isn't actually going to happen?

No, it'll happen all right, Chris. coxy and az will definitely come to blows.

Not so sure about Vitali and Hayemaker, though.

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:Rowley, you want me gone after my absense. I thought you of all people missed my wonderful insight into the oldies.

I missed you the way I miss Hi-Di-Hi and Bros.

LMAO.

That was well funny bruv.

HumanWindmill wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Anyone else have a terrible feeling that we're all gearing ourselves up for a fight which isn't actually going to happen?

No, it'll happen all right, Chris. coxy and az will definitely come to blows.

Not so sure about Vitali and Hayemaker, though.

Me and Az always play nicely.

Apart from the other week when he got us both banned.

HumanWindmill wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Anyone else have a terrible feeling that we're all gearing ourselves up for a fight which isn't actually going to happen?

No, it'll happen all right, Chris. coxy and az will definitely come to blows.

Not so sure about Vitali and Hayemaker, though.

I knew there was 'tension' between the two, but that's a bit much for a family friendly forum Windy.

Super D Boon wrote:

rowley wrote:

azania wrote:Rowley, you want me gone after my absense. I thought you of all people missed my wonderful insight into the oldies.

I missed you the way I miss Hi-Di-Hi and Bros.

Hi-Di-Hi was class Jeff! I liked the silly humour enveloped in a peculiar sense of melancholy and sadness.

Bros though were absolute pants yes.

Did like Ted Bovis, Paul Shane lives not far away from me, is often seen in the boozers around this neck of the woods. Would apologise for going off topic, but given the other option appears to be a coxy-az meltdown would guess some 80's sitcom discussion would be seen as welcome.

coxy0001 wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Anyone else have a terrible feeling that we're all gearing ourselves up for a fight which isn't actually going to happen?

No, it'll happen all right, Chris. coxy and az will definitely come to blows.

Not so sure about Vitali and Hayemaker, though.

Me and Az always play nicely.

Apart from the other week when he got us both banned.

Heard about that one, coxy.

I wasn't here, mate, so you definitely can't blame me for that one, thank Heavens.

sodhat wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Anyone else have a terrible feeling that we're all gearing ourselves up for a fight which isn't actually going to happen?

No, it'll happen all right, Chris. coxy and az will definitely come to blows.

Not so sure about Vitali and Hayemaker, though.

I knew there was 'tension' between the two, but that's a bit much for a family friendly forum Windy.

Ha!

The phraseology was a bit dodgy wasn't it, mate?

If I was being cruel coxy would suggest there is also a common denominator in your various run ins with the moderators but I am far too charitable a guy to do such a thing.

I'll bring modern techniques, diet and skills and coxy brings whiskey to training. It'll be all over within 12 seconds. Coxy leads off with a right hook which I duck and counter with a left hook to the jaw.

Coxy will then launch an appeal saying that I'm not allowed to duckand was therefore cheating. Ducking would be new to him.

HumanWindmill wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Anyone else have a terrible feeling that we're all gearing ourselves up for a fight which isn't actually going to happen?

No, it'll happen all right, Chris. coxy and az will definitely come to blows.

Not so sure about Vitali and Hayemaker, though.

Good work, Windy.

As someone else said the other day (can't remember who), I'm not sure I can take any more news of Haye 'negotiating' a fight. No doubt this March date being chucked about will soon turn in to June, as nobody wants to talk business in the festive season, Haye needs to prevent another Klitschkos 'slave contract', the venue is being disputed, Vitali is looking for a way out, blah blah blah...

azania wrote:I'll bring modern techniques, diet and skills and coxy brings whiskey to training. It'll be all over within 12 seconds. Coxy leads off with a right hook which I duck and counter with a left hook to the jaw.

Coxy will then launch an appeal saying that I'm not allowed to duckand was therefore cheating. Ducking would be new to him.

And i'd also bring the bottle of whiskey to the fight to clock you over the head with before it even starts.

I could live with a DQ on my record. And possible imprisonment.

You're just looking forward to losing your virginity inside.

coxy0001 wrote:

azania wrote:I'll bring modern techniques, diet and skills and coxy brings whiskey to training. It'll be all over within 12 seconds. Coxy leads off with a right hook which I duck and counter with a left hook to the jaw.

Coxy will then launch an appeal saying that I'm not allowed to duckand was therefore cheating. Ducking would be new to him.

And i'd also bring the bottle of whiskey to the fight to clock you over the head with before it even starts.

I could live with a DQ on my record. And possible imprisonment.

Nah. Like old boxers you wouldn't have the basic fundermentals to hit me with the bottle. In short you would get KTFO in no time.......mate.

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

azania wrote:I'll bring modern techniques, diet and skills and coxy brings whiskey to training. It'll be all over within 12 seconds. Coxy leads off with a right hook which I duck and counter with a left hook to the jaw.

Coxy will then launch an appeal saying that I'm not allowed to duckand was therefore cheating. Ducking would be new to him.

And i'd also bring the bottle of whiskey to the fight to clock you over the head with before it even starts.

I could live with a DQ on my record. And possible imprisonment.

Nah. Like old boxers you wouldn't have the basic fundermentals to hit me with the bottle. In short you would get KTFO in no time.......mate.

I'm pretty sure i could manage it from 2ft behind you whilst you weren't looking.

coxy0001 wrote:

I'm pretty sure i could manage it from 2ft behind you whilst you weren't looking.

Scottrf wrote:You're just looking forward to losing your virginity inside.

Post of the day.

Think Vitali should retire personally.......He's 40 and a win over Haye isn't the quality W it would have been before bro shut him out..

He's got a lot of money, his health and no doubt lot's of media opportunities to come.....

Time for him to exit stage left....

What he needs is trash talk back...

He's wearing thin..

Speaking of ' Trash talk, ' fellas, this seems to be heading in that direction.

It might be the time to pull this back on track, and it's certainly time to dispense with the personal stuff. This is a good thread. Let's keep it that way.

Thanks.

I've already had my say on the topic, Vitali beats Haye and beats him easily for me personally. He hasn't shown any kind of ambition/technical know-how to do anything other than smash and runs against the guys he's fought who are naturally bigger, it worked against the worst HW champ of recent times and he got shutout by one of only 2 decent ones in the last 5 years using the same tactics.

Don't see him changing his approach and if he does stand in the pocket in an attempt to get more shots off he gets his head taken off.