View on Wales from a New Zealander

As a New Zealander who knows a thing or two about Rugby, and has lived in Wales for the past 7 years, I feel I am qualified to give a view on the Welsh team. I love Wales and I love the Welsh. They are easy to love. It's perhaps this quality that has held Wales back in the professional era. I have seen Wales lose to teams that they could beat and people say "close game" "almost" etc.

Now here is the thing that is going to earn me a lot of stick of some Welsh contributors. I felt weird about the scenes at the end of the Wales - Australia game on the weekend. I rate Shane Williams as high as some of the great all black wingers, however I felt the celebration from Shane and the crowd was strange because Wales had just lost another winnable game to a Southern Hemisphere team. He deserved his try and applause and farewell moment but I felt it was too much the way it panned out. And I am quite convinced that if the same had happened to Dan Carter in New Zealand, he wouldn't have celebrated with a roll and a fistpump, the interviewers would have mentioned the result to him and the crowd would have been conservative until the point of him saying goodbye and only then would he have got the standing ovation. I hope that sounded fair and you understand it is just a point of view.

I think perhaps Wales is a country where many of its rugby players are not mentally strong enough. I think people like Stephen Jones, Rhys Priestland and Leigh Halfpenny for example are or were potentially world class players who have not or will not be able to harness their true potential. Again just an opinion.

It's strange to think that players like Webb, Biggar and Liam Williams who look to have mentally got 'it' were not played last Saturday. The demeanour of these players reminds me on Mike Phillips and Gavin Henson who are some of the rare, contemporary Welsh players who do not look beaten by the Southern Hemisphere teams before they take to the pitch.

I hear what you're saying but I would add this. The game on Saturday was mostly meaningless. I think almost all fans in Wales didn't want it to happen and the only significance it had was as Shane Williams last match for Wales. I think that was why his try was celebrated and the loss wasn't deemed so important.

However I would agree with the mentality question. It's almost like we get ourselves into a strong position, don't really believe we can hold onto it and then allow our fears to come true.

I also agree about players like Mike Phillips and Gavin Henson in that they have the will to win. That is why, when people were calling for Phillips to be dropped that Gatland kept picking him

mckay1402 wrote: I think that was why his try was celebrated and the loss wasn't deemed so important

McKay – that pretty much sums up the difference between nations like ourselves. My take on this is that you and other Welsh fans viewed this game as a ‘friendly’. God I hate that word in Rugby, it should be expelled. Every game is important, especially when you are playing someone ranked above you. And when you get to the top, you have to keep winning to stay there.

For what it’s worth (stop children, what’s that sound?) I think Shane is going out too early. Even at 34 he’s in fine shape and Wales will find it hard to replace him. I heard he is mulling over a contract extension with Osprey’s but now that he’s out of the international light, I expect the fire to go out

I totally agree on both points. I think Shane could easily pass Campos record but I guess if you don't feel it anymore then it's time to retire. Gareth Edwards felt the same when he retired apparently. He knew it was time. I also expect him to fade. He has really burned up the international scene and I think now he has left that he will fade away from playing altogether.

With regards to the game on Saturday I think that even with a team without some major players we still could have and should probably have won it. Austrlia pulled away when they had a player more but up until and after that Wales were easily their equal.

on a different note James O'Connor is an awesome player

Yeah very good points raised by the op.

I agree as well that Williams is still good enough to carry on for Wales but clearly the motivation is not there to carry on, even if his fitness and speed is still there.

It will be interesting to see how he goes for the Ospreys now. He does look like a guy ready to hang up the boots when he speaks but when he has the ball he still looks electric at times even if not as frequently as he did 2 seasons ago.

KiwiInCardiff1951 wrote:
It's strange to think that players like Webb, Biggar and Liam Williams who look to have mentally got 'it' were not played last Saturday. The demeanour of these players reminds me on Mike Phillips and Gavin Henson who are some of the rare, contemporary Welsh players who do not look beaten by the Southern Hemisphere teams before they take to the pitch.

I think your probably right with most of this but how have the 3 you mentioned shown their mentally stronger then the likes of priestland and halfpenny?

The mental strength of players has been a Welsh problem for a long time. When we have confidence (and some ball) we can look very good. Some of the younger players seem to have more mental toughness. This can be broken or weakened however. This is why I felt that a win against Australia was important, it would have given us confidence and reinforced the players belief in themselves that they can compete and beat anyone.

I'd also say that IMHO Priestland does not have mental toughness, I've seen him go to pieces too many times for the Scarlets, although having said that he does appear to be improving in this regard. Not sure why you believe Biggar mentally has it. To me he appears to be very shaky.

So far as friendlies are concerned, agree, there is no such thing in rugby, and a loss should never be acceptable.

Glad a lot of you agree that no match should ever be a friendly. I think James O'Connor is potentially as good as Dan Carter in that position in every aspect except goal kicking, but that could improve. For a kiwi to say that it speaks volumes for him. I totally agree about Shane Williams. I still think he is Wales' best back, but then again he knows his own body.

I say Webb Biggar and Liam Williams have mentally got 'it' because of their demeanour in matches. You just notice that extra bit of determination, the mental toughness to play your own game and the look in their eyes. This sounds unquantifiable but let us see how they develop.

Agree fully with the OP.

It's never a meaningless match if you pull on a Welsh jersey. I paid to see a test match on Saturday and was treated to an apathetic display by Wales. Saying farewell to Williams should have been the extras - instead it felt like his testimonial. The atmosphere was terrible and the only time the crowd woke up was to say goodbye to Shane. No one sat near me seemed the slightest bit dissapointed that we'd watched Wales lose (again)! I was gutted.

For all the meaningless rugby tests I hear about in the UK,I hope the fans pay meaningless prices .
For people to say that a win is important because its from that win that a team gets confidence are some what putting the cart before the horse, and perhaps the word confidence should be replaced with the word courage,therefore I suggest that wins will come to the team that plays with courage.
Wales has shown more courage in the way they play the game in the last three months than they have in the last thirty years up until last Saturday.

OP

Passion

Rugby in Wales is life. A Kiwi should get that. Literally was life when mining was destroyed.

Shane said it all, every child in Wales dreams of pulling on the jersey. I was never prouder to be Welsh than to see everyone celebrate Shane even in defeat and remain behind to show appreciation to a Welsh rugby hero, even in defeat

Saturday's game was an outlier, yes we lost, and poorly bearing in mind it was a yellow card try fest, but the way in which we said farewell to SW was something of which i will always be proud and the sentiment of that farewell is something we should always retain.

I think the OP is trying to say that we would demand the win first and then hope to see someone like Shane off in style

I just think its different expectations. Generally, NZ fans never expect to lose. Ever.

That's a completely different mindset than wanting to win badly but falling short so often.

Im not sure its right for Kiwis to tell the Welsh how to act when their team loses- especially when they have more experience doing it than Kiwi's do.

I don't mean that as a slant on the Welsh, its about want you expect to get out of a game and for the Welsh, a good send off, including a try in the dying minute of the game to one of the great players of modern times, was a moment worth celebrating, worth extracting some good out of the game that was otherwise a 'L' on the scoreboard for them.

Not later when it all dies down- there's never a better moment than the present, and that try, was SW's final crowning moment.

I think us NZers really should try sitting at 4th to 7th for several years, riding the ups and downs the way those teams do, then decide how they want to behave after another loss to get a bit of perspective. Sometimes we ride a high horse a bit too much.

Ok to expect a certain level of performance from your team but a sprinkling of reality must reside in there somewhere.

And Wales picked the right battles this year to perform, they just fell a bit short in one. I thought they had a mighty year, but as I see most supporters comment, for this match they were there more for SW, than for Wales.

Wow, I'm reading this thread and.... well .... wow.
Proper self analysis and construction criticism
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I'd agree that the game last weekend was more a Shane Williams testimonial against a top side rather than a Welsh test match with Australia.

I think also while he has retired from the international scene, there is plenty life left in him for Ospreys and I can easily see an indian summer ahead. He won't have the pressure cooker of internationals to deal with, the media pressure will fall away a good bit and he might end up enjoying his post-international-retirement phase an ickle bit.

Taylorman

Post of the year so far

This is a welcome thread because from experience of the old 606, posters seem to be of the mind that the mental robustness and expectation to win is either (i) crucial or (ii) utterly irrelevant, to whether teams win or lose.

My own personal opinion is that mental attitude is the difference between winning and losing at the very top of any sport and there is no reason why rugby is any different.

I think that the comments about the younger Welsh players being fearless about losing is completely valid and from a Scotland perspective, I also feel that the attitude of the players has been the difference between Scotland's worst defeats (against Wales in the last 6N, against the Pumas in the RWC) and best victories (Ireland at Croker, both tests in Argentina, SA and Australia) in recent years.

Quite often, the clear out of players by a coach is to establish a bedrock of attitude in the camp. Gavin Hastings made a point of saying that he thought it was no co-incidence that the last Scottish 5N grand slams came off the back of successful Lions tours - the Scottish tourists realising on returning home that they were every bit as good as either their colleagues or the opposition.

No team has the 'right' to win. But lots of players think that they do and that's the difference. Props to a lot of the younger Welsh and Scottish guys, who refuse to read the form book and are no respectors of reputation.

I don't understand New Zealanders and don't expect them to understand me. The culture is different. We need to be a little bit more like NZ undoubtedly, but not a copy. Aus and SA do it their own way and so should we. 'We won't win anything until we do everything like NZ' if that is the case it's a price not worth paying as we will have sold our soul, our individuality.

The Welsh public knew they were getting used. The WRU marketed it as a send off and almost filled the place with 'big occasion' people. I posted on FB at the time that they were annoying me through the TV screen. Butbif tgey hadn't the place would be half empty. To play it was taking the pish, genuine rugby fans knew it and stayed away. Time will tell if the WRU have derailed the European campaigns of their regions.

I don't believe that any fan that supports Wales but not a region is a genuine fan. The Rehions know now that the WRU will sell them down the river, they will act accordingly to protect themselves and the power struggle will continue.

It was an almost perfect send off, rarely does Sport read the script but this once it did. Had it been a winning try it would have been perfect, but then hey, a New Zealander picked the wrong outside half..,

I dont know if you Welsh guys get any New Zealnd rugby television programmes,but you may be interested to know that on this weeks "Northern exposure" ( A weekly kiwi pogramme on Northern Hemisphere rugby) they paid tribute to Shane Williams and his feats for Wales,one that I thought was most complimentary and respectful was from Enoki Afeaki who said that playing against Williams "was just like playing against Christian Cullen"

I can't help but think that if I had made such comments I would have been shot down in flames by the likes of Gatts etc...

It’s true if Carter did that whilst NZ had lost to Aus he would have been labelled a dickhead.

Wales need to aim higher but IMO I don't think they can as make do and mend is engraved into there culture.

aucklandlaurie wrote: I dont know if you Welsh guys get any New Zealnd rugby television programmes,but you may be interested to know that on this weeks "Northern exposure" ( A weekly kiwi pogramme on Northern Hemisphere rugby) they paid tribute to Shane Williams and his feats for Wales,one that I thought was most complimentary and respectful was from Enoki Afeaki who said that playing against Williams "was just like playing against Christian Cullen"

Afeaki was a decent player. Cullen never quite lived up to the promise though did he? Imagine what Shane could have done in an All Black shirt if you miserable buggers would have picked him

I have to assume you're kidding, Glas; Christian Cullen was brilliant. It was Munster who ruined him...

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I have to assume you're kidding, Glas; Christian Cullen was brilliant. It was Munster who ruined him...

Cullen was ruined before he got to Munster – by John Mitchell. Glas, I assume you are joking? Cullen delivered in his first year as an All Black. As far as I am concerned there are no fullbacks better than Christian Cullen, the guy was amazing.

This is an interesting thread. It seems to me Wales in the past years have suffered from a case of the almosts. Against the top sides, they have been in positions to win and have invariably come up short. This RWC followed on the whole a similar pattern. Some encouraging wins against Fiji and Samoa but just came up short against SA. Ireland got beaten comprehensively but then an early sending off against France shouldn´t hide the fact that Wales had a few chances to still win that game.

So a third and fourth play-off and Wales could be forgiven for concentrating more on what might have been than what they really faced. Then a match too far against Australia...

Well you only have to look at the win against Australia by England in Australia and the home win for evidence of how powerful a victory can be. Wales could have gained a lot from beating Australia. But what you gain most out of winning is not losing. And if you make winning into a habit then you gain a sense of confidence and self-belief that isn´t there when you´re losing too many.

But as Taylorman said, there´s only usually a few teams and one predominantly who´s in a position to fully appreciate that habit of winning. The others have to gather up more often crumbs of comfort than taking freely from the loaf of victory. We AB fans generally are cricket fans and maybe we should take the view more often of the Black Caps. They don´t have the individual brilliance of better teams but collectively they are capable of performing. Wales are certainly far better than the Black Caps (Scotland are their rugby equivalents in my view).

While we can´t expect every team to be full of self-belief, the teams ranked lower than the top three should be striving for more consistency. We shouldn´t be surprised when they fall but we should expect them to get back up straight away or at least try to. Otherwise people like HERSH will keep on kicking you while you´re down. Maybe the Welsh team should be forced to become members on here. I´m sure results would trend upwards...

I haven't kicked anyone.

Wales on their day can beat anyone.

Except NZ.

Glas a du wrote:Imagine what Shane could have done in an All Black shirt

Played for Neath?

What happens domestically in NZ then, leagues and cups, not the Super 15. I take it one side generally losses unless there's a draw?

Top Level – Super XV

Club Rugby starts in March-April and runs for about 3-4 months depending on the province. NPC (Provincial) will warm up in July and start in August. Club Rugby feeds into Provincial Rugby and on to Super XV.

There are ‘leagues’ as you call them here however these culminate in a finals/knockout series with a cup awarded at the end. You don’t have both League and Cup comps, as you do over here. And there's very little promotion/relegation

Kia I was actually thinking of the Black caps when I commented. I think Welsh fans did do their fair share of demanding their team to win during the year as well and I reckon were rewarded by one of the best performing teams in the cup- in terms of results and the style of play- its difficult to do both at a high level.

They've now got a young side that can perform- what more can you ask for- expectations will be higher this 6N- can't wait...!

SW represents a changing of the guard in a way... as does GH here, pdv and John Smit in SA. New names and games ahead for us all...

Mental toughness? Or to put it another way 'Is there a God' or if you believe, you believe. I do and I'm proud of our boys. They done great

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Wow, I'm reading this thread and.... well .... wow.
Proper self analysis and construction criticism
Insightful points of view
This is never going to last.

I'd agree that the game last weekend was more a Shane Williams testimonial against a top side rather than a Welsh test match with Australia.

I think also while he has retired from the international scene, there is plenty life left in him for Ospreys and I can easily see an indian summer ahead. He won't have the pressure cooker of internationals to deal with, the media pressure will fall away a good bit and he might end up enjoying his post-international-retirement phase an ickle bit.

And his kids might enjoy having their Dad around a bit more. Loops shouldn't have said that should I.

KiwiInCardiff1951 I agree with most of your points but I think one of the reasons you mentioned is down to mentality, England don't fear playing South Africa or Australia, no matter how poor England are they are pretty happy to go out and play those 2 teams and feel they have a good chance at winning.

Wales on the other hand pretty much always expect to lose those games and normally find a way of doing so, secondly the Welsh fans are so used to our boys blowing it that they will generally be happy with a close score.

Shane Williams has been fantastic for Wales, but in truth there are probably one or two other players in the world with his skills, there will always be a few players who have the ability to be fast, evasive and skillful with a brilliant side step.
Campese, Blanco, Gerald Davies, Jason Robinson, Ieuan Evans, another will spring up soon enough but in Wales we tend to be more keen to build players up than in other countries, Wales are never average, we are either bloody brilliant or bloody awful!

AlynDavies wrote:Wales are never average, we are either bloody brilliant or bloody awful!

Kind of true when I think about it more...

Shane Williams,is[was]a great player for Wales and is a dying breed from another era.By that I mean that the age of when there was a place for all sizes in Rugby is gone.
The small players with slight of hand,swerve,sidesteps on the Wing.like Peter Jackson,David Campese,or Shane Williams.
Are now replaced by big men ,often converted Full backs who just run over you.
Wales by there standards,had a Great RWC,and have a lot of players coming thru.Like Warburton,Faletu,George North,Priestland who can be world Greats soon.
BUT to right off a game versus the World rated number two side,as "a pointless game no one wanted".
Gets right up my nose,EVERY Test Match is important,there is no such thing as a Friendly test match.
You play everyone to WIN,the fans who paid there money at the turnstiles did`nt think it worthless.
Also that attitude would`nt have been made had Wales won the Media would have been full of it!!!.

Corey Jane not that big or fast but full of skills.

I think there will always be room for the SW's of this world. Those that make up for the lack of size with an abundance of talent and speed.

The Oz backline hellraisers arent overly huge- Cooper, Beale, OConnor and even Ioane- all short to medium in terms of International backs.

Even the Daggs, Smiths and Janes of the game are relatively slight. Lomu was the rare player that had the size and pure talent / speed to get around players and there aint many like that around.

As there was an allusion to the Black Caps earlier, I think it´s relevant to point out they broke a 26 year drought and beat the Australians in Australia. The last time they did that Hadlee was the destroyer and not Bracewell.

So it shows if you put enough pressure on a team and get them to make mistakes because of that pressure that they would otherwise never make, then anything is possible. Wales have been in a position quite a few times recently where they have put pressure on the ABs. Unfortunately in the last quarter, the ABs had enough in the tank to step up a gear and get the crucial score to take the game away from the Welsh. But the World Cup showed that the Welsh have improved their conditioning and that they are able to compete and perform for the full 80 minutes. The 3 match series against Australia will be a fantastic opportunity to show where Wales are at and even if they can squeeze just one victory out, it´ll be a huge confidence boost for them. England, let´s not forget, took only one victory away from their two match tour against Australia but they played afterwards as if they had won the whole thing. In a way they finished the series win when they got their home victory later in the autumn.

Hadlee was one of the best all rounders of all time.

Yeah he was class. We had all too briefly Shane Bond but no one since has been close to equalling his greatness for NZ.

Unfortunately Wales produce world class talent far more frequently and extensively. These young guys like North, Faletau and Warburton, along with experienced hands of Jones, Roberts el al make Wales a nice team of youthful exuberance and powerful experienced players.

The Black Caps are the rugby equivalent of Italy. And that´s harsh on Italy as Parisse is world class!

Vetorri is World Class too

Like L&P he´s world class in NZ. But he´s not going to make any World XV lists. That said, he is and has been a key player for NZ.

Here's a view from an Englishman with no axe to grind, but who grew up in the 60's and 70's when Wales were the team to beat with their pantheon of great players, who were too numerous to mention.

However, i wonder if Shane would have got into those teams on a regular basis, because although he is a very good player, he was never one of the worlds best.

Similarly with Wales there has been a massive amount of hype about how great they are, but (and its not for looking) i really can't see it, because they lost as many games at the World cup as they won, and only beat second rank countries on the whole (ireland excluded) while continuing to come unstuck against the SH giants. So a lot of hype, not a lot of substance, and before you start slagging off England, well i probably agree with you, but this is heartfelt and honest!! Bye for now.

Well I guess the 6N will prove a good indicator of where both Wales and England are at English Warrior. Then Wales have further opportunity to see where they stand in world rugby when they have a 3 match series. I´m not sure but I think England will also play SA in a series. Then England play Australia, South Africa and NZ in successive weeks. No place to hide from those results for either team.

To a certain extent I agree but I do think there are signs of growth within the Welsh squad. They are not far away from being a decent side but equally they could shrink back down again if they don't get a run of good results. This 6 nations is crucial for Wales future. If they have a good one then they will kick on but if they have an average or poor one then you have to think that the world cup may have been a blip. Personally I think they will have a very good six nations and will win it without a GS but with a triple crown