Saints v Quins

I guess someone ought to bring it into discussion.

Saints 24 Quins 3. After 60 minutes.

Hartley may get cited for yet another high tackle. Ought to be in my opinion. No longer can youthful exuberance be a mitigating excuse. But I like him nonetheless.

Missed Hartley doing anyhing worth a citing - Gray sadly may be however for a late forearm smash to Lambs face. He may have pulled out slightly, not sure.

Saints 24 Quins 3.

F.T.

I'm looking forward to doing an end-of season analysis of the effect of internationals on club positions in the Jeff.

I watched the match on tv. Seemed like a fairly typical Saints match. Strong, strong defense. Rucks hit hard and fast. Nice breaks creating scoring opportunities. There was a little too much by both sides at the breakdown which slowed down the match.

Robshaw was huge today, despite the score.

doctor_grey wrote:I watched the match on tv. Seemed like a fairly typical Saints match. Strong, strong defense. Rucks hit hard and fast. Nice breaks creating scoring opportunities. There was a little too much by both sides at the breakdown which slowed down the match.

Robshaw was huge today, despite the score.

Agreed about Robshaw. But was it perspiration or inspiration?

Well, hopefully not constipation?

I don't yet see Robshaw as a classy game-changing back-rower.

And it's a huge step up to International class.

Mind you, I can only see that in SOB and Warburton in the home nations

Thought Saints played well but not as good as the commentators made out at the end. Didn't think the ref had a great game, Pearson seems to have backwards in ability since the world cup on the times I've seen him. The Quins look look they could do with a break to me - not much chance of that in the coming weeks.

Thought Dickson played well and more than deserves his chance in the EPS now. If Simpson makes the squad before him then something is seriously wrong somewhere.

Hartley cited for a high tackle? Think you were just trying to start a debate there Portney. Poor effort, 5/10!

Portnoy wrote:I don't yet see Robshaw as a classy game-changing back-rower.

And it's a huge step up to International class.

Mind you, I can only see that in SOB and Warburton in the home nations

I'm happy for Robshaw to have a chance. Every team needs a grafter and not just a game changing back-rower (Richard Hill?). Can't make my mind up if I prefer him of Croft to start alongside Wood. Guess it depends on who gets picked at 8.

One thing tonight did prove for me is that Robshaw shouldn't be made captain (although for me he has to establish himself in the team first before being considered anyway). It's not the first time I've seen him manage to wind up the ref – reminded me of when Borthwick was captaining England a couple of years ago.

I would say that Ferris is international class when fit along with SOB & Warburton. Plus Heaslip if he can regain his form of a couple of seasons ago.

Portnoy

Hartleys tackle was not high, certanly not worth a citing, if you look Hartley first hits him on the upper harm and then he starts to fall that is when Hartley ends up on his neck.

Foden should be first full back for England and Brown on the bench Foden just cannot stop scoring just lately.

I think Easter shot himself in the foot with his yellow card, if Easter thought that Lancatser would be impresssed by him last night, then he is a stupid man. imo.


I personaly think that Dickson should be in the England team fighting it out with Youngs for the 9 shirt.

Just in terms of the EPS places...
I haven't seen him much this year, but from this match, I think Lee Dickson deserves an EPS spot. He was phenomenal. Great go-forward quick ball, genuine control over his forwards at the breakdown, and strong communication with Lamb. And with an eye to the future, Roberts looked an absolute livewire out there when he came on to replace Dickson - a fantastic 15 minutes.
Lamb himself might be in with a shout, though I expect the second fly half berth will go to Hodgson (who has been excellent this season). A very mature performance - keeping the scoreboard ticking over, hitting those running good angles off him, and a good eye and timing for spinning it wide.
I think Doran-Jones may just have nailed down the second tight-head spot after that showing (after Dan Cole). Excellent in the tight and loose, as was his front row comrade Hartley. Not sure if Marler stood out enough to be considered the second loosehead (after Corbisiero). I imagine Stevens will be given that spot. Grey put himself about well in a losing effort and seemed to stabilize the Harlequins set piece once he came on at the half. If there are 3 hookers in the EPS, I imagine he might win a spot.
The Harlequins lineout was a shade shaky, though that may have been due to the absence of Grey until his half-time substitution on. Since Robson's place in the EPS is inherently tied to him being a lineout specialist, this was a weak showing for him, especially given how the Northampton second row overshadowed their Harlequins counterparts in the loose.
Robshaw and Wood were tireless, in their own particular ways, and will both make the squad. Easter will not likely have won his way back into the EPS on the basis of this performance, however much I might agree that he is the best English 8 around at present. Dowson was everywhere in defense and attack and may just have done enough, especially since his merits are well-known to Lancaster.
Foden was excellent and Brown only a shade behind. He cannot be blamed for the "missed tackle" which the media are playing up - he was left covering two men out wide and was always going to get burned. What was so impressive about Brown was his work after the tackle and at the breakdown - quickly on his feet to make the next stop or diving in to forage for the ball. Superb openside skills for a fullback.
I feel for Turner-Hall, who did nothing wrong and much right all day, and yet was overshadowed by an effervescent Pisi. The ball he did get tended not to be clean and Clegg did little to give him the space to make yards. Defended with his life, though I think he is unlikely to make the squad.

Quality match from Saints. They just blew us away at the breakdown and in the pack.

Again as much as O'Shea denies it we need to sign up some real ballast in the engine room if we want to compete regularly with the top teams.

Lovely hands and finishing from that Saints backline and Lamb had a really mature game, maybe he'll be in the Saxons? Didn't see Ashton or Vato much but Pisi and Foden were electric.

As for Quins, I don't know what we did to Pearson, maybe insulted a relative but from aboutt he 10th minute when he penalised Monye wrongly he was just on our backs all game. We couldn't get a break and Saints played that to the max, especially on the floor.

It reminded me of our match against Toulouse a bit. Still Hopper, Brown and Robshaw all had good games.

I think the Quins lads need a rest as well, they've played a heck of a lot of rugby and there's been little to no rotation over these 3 fixtures in 10 days. we need to rest up now ready for a big push at the end of the season.

Roll on next weekend.

Interesting thoughs about the players involved yesterday.

Robshaw. I thought Robshaw was terrific, He was in the middle of almost everything Quins did well. Without him, Quins defense would be much worse. I was not too sure about him before frankly, but now I am convinced.

Dickson. I don't know what keeps Dickson out of EPS consideration. Obviously not as fast as a runner as Care or Youngs, but has much better ball delivery, which is the primary responsibility of a scrum-half. He gets the ball out as fast and as accurately as any 9 currently playing anywhere. His defense is good too.

Ryan Lamb. Can someone please tell me exactly what he did that was consistently great yesterday? He indeed kept the team moving forwards, but twice he had kicks for territory after penalties which did not go into touch. On a night which was not too windy that was unacceptable. Also that poor attempt at a kick after a breakdown which was blocked (by Robshaw, if I remember). Those kinds of things usually come back to haunt a team and can undo all other good things.

Marler. He was out and about on the pitch, but never seemed the best prop in the game. Actually appeared tentative at times. I wouldn't consider him for England at this point, but a stint with the Saxons is probably about right. He is still a young'un, especially for a prop, and has time to develop.

Foden v Brown. The interesting thing here is I always felt something might happen when Foden had the ball which I never felt with Brown. Both played well, but Foden has the extra spark. Brown was good, but second best across the pitch.

I've always said Dickson deserves a place. Great scrum-half.

yappysnap wrote:I think the Quins lads need a rest as well, they've played a heck of a lot of rugby and there's been little to no rotation over these 3 fixtures in 10 days. we need to rest up now ready for a big push at the end of the season.

Roll on next weekend.

When can they rest though? Certainly not in the next two weeks, then any players in the EPS will be missing fo a while.

A good question LT. I personally would not mind seeing a few players like Robshaw, Brown, Robson, Marler and Easter benched or out of the 23 altogether for the two Euro games.

To host Gloucester i'd like:
Fairbrother
Gray
Lambert
Kohn
Valejos
York
Wallace
Guest
Care
Clegg
Monye
JTH
Hopper
Smith
Williams

Marler
Brooker
Johnston
Brown
Skinner
Bolt
Evans
Casson

have great respect for quins as a team, but they never really got going yesterday

saints' defense around the breakdown and physicality up front managed to nulify the offloading game guins employ. As already said robshaw was excellent. I question whether mike brown has that 'x-factor' to step up to international level but give the lad a go in the EPS, foden once again showed his class.

also.....rory clegg!? i dont know how a man can look so promising in general play and kick so poorly, couple of poor restarts and easy penalties missed. if he gets his percentages up surely he could be a regular starter elsewhere in the aviva?

talk of quins needing a break, they somewhat remind me of the northampton squad in previous years-saints could bring on mujati, myler, roberts and may whereas quins seem to have less strength in depth, the same position we were in last season. Sign many many large forwards and youll be an even more formidable team

I didn't see the match so he may have been superb, but every time i've seen Dickson he's been slow to get the ball away, zero threat ball in hand and offering a very average pass. I cannot for the life of me see how he is an international player. His pack regularly gives him nice quick ball and an armchair ride and even then he looks pedestrian. 1 game in about 5 it seems like someone's given him a rocket up the backside and he looks great. I don't think that's good enough

Agree Bobo, Saints were very good at absolutely smashing us at the start and we never got back in to it.

I think a fair few of the team need a rest as they've played nearly every single match going so far.

Yes we've (the fans) been asking for a couple of gnarly forwards in the squad for a while. Unfortunately I don't think we have the funds or that O'Shea has the inclination, at the moment at least. Another drubbing like that and he may change his mind!

Yappy - who are those gnarly forwards that you would want to sign? Dream list (if anyone was available).

An absolute rock at tighthead? Beast of a 2nd rower. I cant imagine us wanting another back rower.
A more scrummaging focused hooker?

It's not a question of money but of headroom within the salary cap. Once the "marquee player" rule comes in, I'd expect Quins to sign an additional "enforcer" lock.

It's hard to judge how Fairbrother and Mayhew have developed as they've both been injured a lot, but I could see them being replaced at the end of their contracts if they don't show consistent form.

But I don't expect wholesale changes. The team's philosophy is based on speed over power; January/February is traditionally when Quins play their worst. How many points were lost to dropped passes over the last few weeks that were being caught when the weather was warmer?

Plus, there's no point planning recruitment until the IRB's proposed scrummaging changes come through. If they do make a move to reduce the hit (which most observers seem to think is required), then a lighter pack may not have to fight as hard for parity.

There aren't that many out there tbh, but I do think we need a prop who is really just there to scrummage primarily. An enforcer lock would be handy too. Gray seems good enough in the set piece really though.

I really don't know any front rows well enough to comment on individuals but there has to be a few SA beasts out there looking for the London liestyle.

yappysnap wrote:There aren't that many out there tbh, but I do think we need a prop who is really just there to scrummage primarily. An enforcer lock would be handy too. Gray seems good enough in the set piece really though.

I really don't know any front rows well enough to comment on individuals but there has to be a few SA beasts out there looking for the London liestyle.

Euan 'I don't like Sundays' Murray if the Falcons go down?

Fair point. How many Sundays are played in a season? Can't be that many surely...

thats a good point if newcastle go down......surely players like murray hudson and golding will want to leave? sign em up

yappysnap wrote:Fair point. How many Sundays are played in a season? Can't be that many surely...

Far fewer if you own your own ground than if you don't. As far as I know, Quins only play on Sundays for religious reasons anyway... when there's a higher calling at the temple of rugby next door, or when the great Sky god demands it.

Hudson would be a great signing for Quins.
I think there would probably be 2 or 3 prem games on a sunday per season. The problem will be the european fixtures when the scheduling is primarily organised by the TV people.

One would have to presume that Murray understands the constraints he places on himself and would accept a contract that reflects that.

Hudson or Murray would both be very good.

Or John Golding? He was the next big thing a couple of seasons ago but I have heard diddly since.

I kind of suspect that John Golding may have been carried somewhat by having Carl Hayman on the other side of the scrum!
Since his departure to then Toulon - Golding has faded a touch (although I think there was also a serious injury there too).

Hudson would be my first pick (could form great partner with Robson - although O.Kohn has done nothing to merit replacement), followed by Murray (would also be taken for int duties).

Alternatively, we could take the current squad and academy props and put them all in an Apprentice-like reality TV show in which Jason Leonard gives them a lesson each week on how to become a world class prop.

The twist is that no-one gets fired. They're just not allowed out until they're ready.

On second thoughts, since most of the language and all of the dark secrets of propping would have to be censored, there might not be much left to watch.

Murray could be an interesting one. I haven't checked the 6N fixtures for next year but although he would be gone for international matches, if Scotland were playing on a Sunday and Quins on a Saturday then he would still be available as there is no player agreement north of the border.

The HC scheduling would be more of a problem though.

Poorfour wrote:Alternatively, we could take the current squad and academy props and put them all in an Apprentice-like reality TV show in which Jason Leonard gives them a lesson each week on how to become a world class prop.

The twist is that no-one gets fired. They're just not allowed out until they're ready.

On second thoughts, since most of the language and all of the dark secrets of propping would have to be censored, there might not be much left to watch.