Golf Tuition - Good/Bad

I've been looking around a few publications who have all had articles about the good and bad points of golf tuition, is it worth, do you like it and get something out of it, or does your game suffer etc, etc, etc. My own personal opinion is that I would not go to my own club pro or his assistant, as I've heard too many people complain. They're both good people but are of the school of ripping your game apart and rebuilding. I believe a good teacher is someone who'll look at what you've got and (after laughing), build on your good points, try and get rid of simple stuff, and give you confidence.

Now I know we've mentioned this on here and elsewhere, and good teachers seem to be hard to find, especially if there are too many who just follow a R&A blueprint, and try and make us all the same. One article I read mentioned that anyone with a 6 h/c can go for the certificate they want, and all you get is the standard rudey poo. Good teachers are sought after because they get business through referels and repeat business etc. They won't swamp you with all the swing mechanic jargon, just encourage you to swing/grip slightly different, and show you how to get the best of what you have.

I appreciate there will be many on here who may disagree, but would love to know what is the most common type of teacher available at your club and locality. I have a sneeky feeling that quite a few would travel to see someone they trust.

I think this is a bit harsh.

What's a clone coach for a start? Most of the PGA pros will be able to teach you a very strong repeatable motion which takes the best parts of your current motion and adds to it until you are looking like a 'clone' of one player or another (although not scoring like them in most cases)

Whereas a best of what you have coach is generally putting a bandaid on lots of errors. Again this can be done by a PGA guy although they don't like doing it.

Additionally there are some people who just do not have the ability to strike the ball, or get through the ball, in a way that will allow them to become a par shooter on a regular basis... but they can still learn.

You will find that the best will ask what you want. A bandaid or a rebuild. And will look at the swing in the appropriate manner.

I was given that choice and I want to start from scratch. The errors I have in my game are massive... but I know that they can be fixed.

so to me... neither as the question is very poorly worded. Or even slightly biased in the phrasing so as to lead people to one over the other.

yeah slightly biased in the question but clearly you believe in individual coaching and that is fine. dont change your opinion for any one.

as for the clone coaching.....everyone has the ability to swing the club properly. by that i mean what the manual states...but the problem is practice. the first question i was asked at my recent lesson was how good do you want to get ?.....next question was how often do you think you need to practice to acheive your goal ?.....my coach gave me the answer to the last question and toldme if i dont stick to it i couldnt complain about not seeing results.

fair enough to me. so i have given up playing the wednesday comp this year to give me the right amount of practice for the golf season.


i would gladly be a clone if the clone was of martin kaymer

CLONE Coaching. I get exactly what your point is and I'm many ways agree.

But one thing that needs to be factored into the equation is what they learn at the PGA academy and why they learn it.

Firstly they learn that specific way as its the most applicable to all golfers and something is fundamentally easy to teach to beginners and something the majority of golfers can repeat with practice.

Yes its pretty much a clone for all they teach because its easiest to apply across the board as they will get far less time with students than playing pros do with their coaches to continually hone a new technique so they teach this way so that if someone moves on and has to see a different pro they can pick where the other guy supposedly left off.

I'm in a situation where many of the guys I grew up playing with turned pr and went down the PGA route these were all young guys learning a stock trade and most teach exactly the same method except for 2 of them and these 2 are the standout guys in their field compared to the other 7. Now the 2 in question were actually the poorest 2 players from our group as youths and even now I would say they are solid players at best but fantastic coaches one now at the london club the other head teacher for hampshire county. Compared to the other 7 not one of which is a head pro in their own right yet!

What helped these 2 was the fact they were not the most gifted players out of the bunch they had to learn a way to get it round learn different techniques that would help them compete with the naturally gifted and work at it. You would often see the pair of them together reading through techniques of Hogan, Haney, Harmon, Pennick etc in their breaks or when they had quiet moments in the shop when the others were out living on natural talent and doing enough to get by!

For me the difference between a club pro making a good living and a GOOD club pro is the ones making a good living tend to be of the mould that teaches standard practice and churns out lesson after lesson the GOOD on the other hand is a student of the game and spends more time learning and
drawing on different experiences inevitably these guys will make a great living than just a good living in the long run.

When you see a pro its better to have the question asked do you functioning or do you want consistency if the latter you may have to be prepared for a full rebuild but I know one thing that one of my mates does is when faced with this is he says to the guys doing it be prepared to spend at least 25hours on lessons making sure its right and then god knows how much more practising it and he will teach what is right for that person build and frame and he makes a damn fine living he is as happy doing a full rebuild as he is a quick fix, the difference is though some guys going for quick fix spend more money on lessons as they continually need a new quick fix than the guys having a rebuild do because once they have it in stone they hardly need to go back!

But on the point of clones if you could clone me a Goosen or Stricker swing I'd have that transplant done

LJ maybe the question was worded badly, but the point I was trying to put over was that at my club we have the pro and his assistant. Both young and both teach, but both always start off by changing your grip which is ridiculous. The grip shouldn't be a standard as there are numerous ways of holding the bat. They then go through everything as if reading from the latest memo. Most who go to see them are there for improvement, but come away feeling upset and thinking their game has been ruined and will never be able to do what's expected. This can't be right, because an earlier pro we had at the club, did things differently again and was a success. I've spoken to many players who all have different experiences and most will say that they wasted their cash, because they lost the enjoyment, lost their game completley and either went to someone else, or reverted back to their old style. I learned more from a club builder than from an earlier coach, as he had a way of getting straight to the 'obvious problem' he saw when I set up and swung the club. he didn't put a band-aid over it, he recognised what it was and corrected straight away.

There are plenty of coaches out there and some of them are recognised as being great teachers, great communicators as well as being experienced. Far too many are clones and give you far too much 'tech speak', which you really don't need. I was looking recently at the Pete Cowan Accademy who charge c£80 per hour, obviously not with Pete but one of his coaches. I would expect that his boys are fully qualified etc, but use PC teaching techniques. I also believe that doing 9-holes with your coach would give him an insight into your game, so that the practice ground and lesson is easy for him after that. Your also being taught a little about course management etc. More expensive yes, but much more beneficial in my eyes. You can't give everyone communication skills when they get handed a certificate. Being told they must grip this way, and have the ball placed in this position, and must swing this way and have the club face ...... Different strokes as the saying goes.

Doc, I got the gist of your question and don't feel the need to be picky with the wording?!?! I've spent enough hours on the range to see what you are getting at by a pro just teaching everyone the same thing - my favourite was a few years ago when a pro at the local range got everyone doing a drill to promote shoulder rotation by holding a club across your chest and turning. The range was full of people not hitting balls but rotating nicely like duracell bunnies!

Back to the question. I've had 3 coaches in 14 years (none for the past 4 years) of playing that were all very good and all had different teaching methods:

My first was of the scoring kind that placed all the emphasis on shooting low scores. This might sound like an obvious thing to teach but a lot of pros, particularly 10 or so years ago, were/are more intent on getting everyone swinging nicely and hitting good 7 irons. This guy got me working the ball well regardless of how my swing looked and made sure my short game was always the strongest part.

The second came at a time when my game was full of bad habits and I didn't have a reliable swing that I could be confident with. We decided that a rebuild was necessary and after 6 months of hitting the ball all over the show I got a good swing that just worked. I was fortunate during this period that my first coach's emphasis on short game made me good enough around the greens to keep my score respectable.

My last coach was as much psychologist as he was golf coach. He would tweak my game where I felt weaknesses but most of our work came in the form of my course management and mental strength. After having a solid short game and then a reliable swing this for me was the last pieces of the puzzle.

The most important thing in all of my coaching has been my communication and relationship with the coach. I've had some lessons where we have been more technical and spent an hour or so working on a minute detail and other lessons where we have just had chipping and putting competitions. If you enjoy your coach's company then you will listen to him more and get more out of it...

Doc. There is more than one way to hold the club it's true... but most of the poor grips are as a result of a correction to fix another error in the swing.

I can appreciate the problem you have with the young teachers at your club going straight there... but perhaps there is a reason.

As I say. I'm starting a new process with my teacher. And my grip has been changed. As the left hand was very weak and the right very strong. It was to correct a fault in my downswing plane... but I don't want that plane issue. I want a solid action that allows me to shoot under par regularly.

You might say he's making me a clone. I say I know I can make the change and it's going to result in better golf so it's right for me.

sharrison, That sort of coaching is great and think is what we need more of in the game improvement sessions. Obviously new players need to get the basics and should be taught a certain way to start with. Once these new starters have played a few rounds using what they've been taught, they should go back because no doubt they will have adapted some of the techniques they were shown. This is where the good teacher can see something and work with the pupil to enhance what he's got and indeed capable of getting.

LJ, if I was in your league I would do exactly what you're doing. You're a cat1 player and obviously understand a hell of a lot more about the game, techniques and have a big interest in the mechanics side of things, which will be more than the avarage golfer. I respect what you're trying to achieve, but you also obviously trust the guy who's teaching you, and you would not have just let anyone rip your game apart and then rebuild it.

Doc. Thats completely correct. I wouldn't let anyone touch it let alone tear it to pieces. Looking at it on a video was harrowing. Talk about a video nasty!

The article link attached probably gets my view over better:

http://www.golfer-today.co.uk/golf-lessons.html

There is something on there that does make sense... Which is don't make a body do what it isn't capable of!

I wonder how many people on here can actually turn their shoulders 90 degrees with the required lack of movement in the hips and legs?

LondonJonnyO wrote:There is something on there that does make sense... Which is don't make a body do what it isn't capable of!

I wonder how many people on here can actually turn their shoulders 90 degrees with the required lack of movement in the hips and legs?

Exactly. We're all shapes and sizes and have different limititations on movement. We've all seen some really huge guys who you would think would just lash it, but turn out to have fluent fantasticly smooth swing. people who look like they would have a great swing who just have half a back swing etc. I saw recently a lady who's a single figure player with the most scary swing in the world. She actually did a lassoo motion at the zenith of her back swing and somehow brought the head back into the correct zone at impact. She was scarier than Bubba, but it works for her.

Jeez it's quiet on this board, whats going on?

Friday. Everyones at the pub.

You'd probably say the same for mine. Open shoulders, upright plane, 120 degree turn, club way past parallel, massive sway, but through impact (and although I'm too square which means I am losing huge yardage there) the action looks excellent.

There's lots of ways of doing it... but only one really good impact position.

wow

that sounds like bubba watsons swing LJ.......you right handed ?

I am right handed yes.

All those things are old errors that have crept back in over a fair bit of time. I can still get it out there (and my yardage control is excellent on my irons)... but I want more.

I've not selected a poll option since I don't believe either reflects golf tuition as I've experienced it. I started taking regular lessons just over a year ago. I wanted to get down to single figures again from 11, having stopped playing for about 4 years. I was off 5 at my lowest before the break. I've so far abjectly failed to reduce my handicap, indeed it's gone up to 12. However, I know I'm gradually becoming a more consistent ball striker and the results will hopefully come through this year, so long as I sharpen up my short game with some more regular playing. (Plus I seem to play much better at other courses than my own, so there must be some improvement!)

At the start of this process I had a terrible height change in my swing, a strong grip, closed clubhead at the top and my lower body movement was a slide towards the ball rather than a rotation of the hips and movement towards the target. I was having to salvage vague respectability on most shots with good hand-eye coordination.

It was my choice to undertake a series of lessons to correct as many of those faults (and indeed any new ones that arose in the process) as possible in order to get better at the game in the long term. If wanting a neutral grip, good clubhead position at the top, correct movement through the ball and so better ball striking, distance and accuracy makes me a 'clone' then sobeit.

On the other hand, if I'd said at that first lesson that all I wanted was, perhaps, to eliminate one side of the golf course so that I could rely on my misses being all in one direction, I'm sure he'd have been able to give me a few pointers to work with and I'd never have seen him again, happy that my scores would have improved by perhaps half a shot a round.

So whilst it's true that top class golf has many players who aren't entirely orthodox, as LJ says there's only one really good impact position. Most people can only get into that position if their fundamentals such as grip, stance, position at the top of the backswing, lower body movement etc are in line with the recognised norms, and so that's what most pros teach. If you don't want to rebuild your swing, then make that clear at the outset. Naturally, most pros will want you to see them more than once, but if you just want a quick fix none of them will send you away, even if the less experienced ones might not immediately be able to offer you a magic move to cure your particular ills.

Changing a golf swing takes a long time for a touring pro who's hitting 500 balls a day, so for amateurs who maybe hit a bucket of 80 balls a week it is even harder, yet lots of people become disenchanted if they don't instantly improve after a single lesson. With realistic expectations, hard work and a good attitude I believe anyone can seriously improve. With any one of those 3 missing, you're fighting a losing battle and the pro will often wrongly get the blame.

Certainly is quiet on here today. I think its all well and good having a stock method to teach but I think the young pro's coming through now need to be more adaptable and recognise some peoples physical limitations to do physique or not being supple enough to achieve certain positions.

This thread got me chatting to one of my pro friends and he stated he has only just after a few years figured out that the PGA way though having its merits needs to be more adaptable and has started learning more about the human body to help him teach those that have certain limitations.

I've even thought myself about getting into coaching as I enjoyed doing it when I was assistant as a 19year old but having had a family young curtailed my pro ambitions as it just didn't pay enough to feed a young mouth. But am now in a position where I could take a hit financially and do it. As I am a student of the game and would love to help others decisions decisions!!

go for it maverick. you owe it to yourself to at least give it a shot and if it doesnt work out....go back to the day job.

Just read this on another forum which I found amusing, epecially some of the replies which seemed to agree. Although one bloke has a go at him for using 3 different pro's who all told him the same thing ....

Hi all,

I have been playing about a year now and have been having regular lessons since I started spending a fair amount of money but haven’t really seen the benefit. I have a very flat one plane swing very similar looking to Matt Kuchar with my left arm just below my shoulder plane and my hands very deep. The problem has been with the pro's and there school of thought and ideal swing, I have been through three different pros now and all have gave me similar advice "stand more upright, narrow my stance, hold my shoulders back while swinging my arms and thrusting my hip toward the target" amongst a few. The problem is all these drills and advice are fine if you are a two plane swinger but I aren’t. This has caused me no end of problems having to route my flat backswing back down to a steep downswing causing pulls, slices and fats and a severe loss of confidence. During a session at the driving range last week I noticed a guy with a very similar swing to mine smashing the ball long and straight, so I asked him if he could spare me 5 minutes to explain his swing and have a quick look at mine which he did, basically he told me to do the opposite of everything I had been told, widen my stance bend over more swing with the body not the arms ect low and behold I was striking the ball better and straighter than I had in a long time. My point is do the majority of golf pros just teach a generic style of swing (Maybe one for Bob to answer?) as the 3 I have tried have taught 2 plane fundamentals for a one plane swing, no wonder the average handicap hasn’t changed in the last 3 decades, surely a PGA Pro should be proficient with students of both styles of play. Anyway if anyone knows of anyone in West Yorkshire area that specialises in the one plane swing please let me know!

Thanks

Good range session today. Hit 50 balls (took about 45 minutes) and hit a lot of very flush shots which pleased me. Then I took mini-LJ out on the putting green and let him chase balls around as I was putting.

Then we played one hole and I was a little shocked. 150 into the wind... 8 iron 10 yards through the back. It was so sweet I didn't even feel it!

Things are starting to work slowly...

Doc wrote:Just read this on another forum which I found amusing, epecially some of the replies which seemed to agree. Although one bloke has a go at him for using 3 different pro's who all told him the same thing ....

Hi all,

I have been playing about a year now and have been having regular lessons since I started spending a fair amount of money but haven’t really seen the benefit. I have a very flat one plane swing very similar looking to Matt Kuchar with my left arm just below my shoulder plane and my hands very deep. The problem has been with the pro's and there school of thought and ideal swing, I have been through three different pros now and all have gave me similar advice "stand more upright, narrow my stance, hold my shoulders back while swinging my arms and thrusting my hip toward the target" amongst a few. The problem is all these drills and advice are fine if you are a two plane swinger but I aren’t. This has caused me no end of problems having to route my flat backswing back down to a steep downswing causing pulls, slices and fats and a severe loss of confidence. During a session at the driving range last week I noticed a guy with a very similar swing to mine smashing the ball long and straight, so I asked him if he could spare me 5 minutes to explain his swing and have a quick look at mine which he did, basically he told me to do the opposite of everything I had been told, widen my stance bend over more swing with the body not the arms ect low and behold I was striking the ball better and straighter than I had in a long time. My point is do the majority of golf pros just teach a generic style of swing (Maybe one for Bob to answer?) as the 3 I have tried have taught 2 plane fundamentals for a one plane swing, no wonder the average handicap hasn’t changed in the last 3 decades, surely a PGA Pro should be proficient with students of both styles of play. Anyway if anyone knows of anyone in West Yorkshire area that specialises in the one plane swing please let me know!

Thanks

This is so typical. Why go for lessons if you're going to completely, or at least selectively, ignore everything you're told? He's been playing for a year, taking regular lessons and yet has still managed to develop a flat swing. And then he moans that the pros try to teach it out of him. Whose fault is that?

SmithersJones wrote:...He's been playing for a year, taking regular lessons and yet has still managed to develop a flat swing...

What's wrong with a flat swing?

navyblueshorts wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:...He's been playing for a year, taking regular lessons and yet has still managed to develop a flat swing...

What's wrong with a flat swing?

I don't profess to know. But clearly the 3 pros he's been to know that there is something wrong with it and want him to change it, but he's seen Matt Kuchar so thinks he knows better.