Greatest Military General...

A debate I find quite fascinating. History has seen some truly incredible military generals - prevailing against the odds and ruling vast empires.

I'll throw a few names out there to get the ball rolling:-

Genghis Khan - went from hiding in the hills with just his mother and brothers to uniting the long warring Mongol tribes under one banner for the first time, and going on to begin forging the largest land empire that the world has ever seen. Based almost entirely around speed, manouevrability and the skill of the Mongol warriors from horse back, the Mongols crushed enormous enemies in the Chinese and Arabs, before marauding West through Europe.

Tsubodai/Subotai - Genghis Khan's most successful general. The only man to successfully carry out a winter attack in history, and the sole reason for numerous other major successes of the Mongols. It is said that there has been no other with such a grasp for tactics, making the most of advantages and military cunning in history. Well worth reading about.

Julius Caesar - Not much you won't know about Caesar, but noteable successes include conquering Gaul against huge numbers, before returning to claim Rome and defeat the armies of Pompeii in a civil war. Many great victories against the odds.

Alexander the Great - As above, some hugely decisive victories in the face of adversity, conquered vast lands.

Any others you wish to add, and who do you see as the greatest military general in history?

Mine? I'd have to say Genghis Khan. An incredible story, and it is still unbelievable to think what he achieved. Having Tsubodai as his general obviously played a big part in that, and Tsubodai is worthy of being given the title of 'the greatest' himself, but for uniting the warring Mongol tribes and bringing the might of China and Arabia to its knees, Genghis gets my vote.

Without getting in trouble, could Hitler be considered?

Granted, his reasoning for war was pure evil, but they way he mobilised the German army and lay siege to Europe?

Here are 3 more that I can think of:

Cyrus the Great - was the founder of the Achaemenid Persian Empire through his conquering of the Median, Lydian and Neo-Babylonian Empires. His empire spanned across three continents. Unlike many others, his empire endured long after his demise due to the political infrastructure he created. He is considered by many to be equal if not greater than Alexander the Great in his accomplishments.

Hannibal - invaded the mighty Roman Empire through the Alps. He defeated the Romans in a series of battles at Trebia, Trasimene and Cannae. Never personally losing on the battlefield to the Romans, he maintained his Carthaginian army in Italy for more than a decade after the Second Punic War. He is considered one of the greatest military strategists ever, his Roman enemies even adopted some of his tactics for their own use.

Hitler - led Nazi Germany and the Axis Powers in occupying most of continental Europe and parts of Asia and Africa. He defeated and conquered France while holding off the U.S., British and Russians during World War II. His armies would gain numerous victories through their mastering of the military tactic; Blitzkrieg.

Yeah, absolutely Hitler can be considered. Genghis Khan killed far more people than Adolf ever did, so that is of no consequence to this debate.

Very good shout.

What about Chairman Mao?

Napoleon was right up there, although like Hitler later in history he decided to invade Russia and it all went wrong!

Not sure Hitler should be considered a great General - he was not a battlefield leader but rather was a political leader under whose direction others devised and executed the strategies. Rommel for example was excellent in this regard.

Once Hitler took over overall military command (once the war was going against the Germans), he was neither a skilled tactician or great motivator. Also, he and the Germans never really overcame the problems that the early successes of Blitzkrieg created, particularly with regard to over-extension of supply lines and a lack of military resources to provide protection within the territories they were occupying.

True, more of a great politician to make things possible for his top generals to carry out.

If you say that about Hitler you could say the same about Genghis Khan? I know he united the tribes and all that but as Fists pointed out in the OT Tsubodai/Subotai was the General and the one Generals through-out history have studied

Genghis Khan made the overall decisions though, Dicey, and actually fought on the battlefield, giving decisions whilst battles were ongoing. Evidently, with an army of such size the other generals had their own decisions to make, but Genghis was the main man.

The same could be said about Hitler making the overall decisions (we can leave out the fighting part and decisions on the battlefield bit ), he also had a large army and used his Generals to great effect

Dicey
Off course, Hitler did have some battlefield experience from WW1, and we all know that this left him slightly depleted in the 'meat and two veg' area

All together now

Sun Tzu,

His teachings are not only still used upon the battlefield but in the boardroom.

Captain Mainwaring...

Crafted a superb fighting force from unpromising collection of oddballs. Largely responsible for deterring Hitler from invading Britain.

Gaius Marius ,157-86 BC . Rose from humble origin to be elected Consul seven times. Defeated invading Germanic tribes in 102 , and carried out sweeping reforms of the Roman Army. Tactically brilliant , formidably honourable , though his record is perhaps slightly marred by the bloodshed that followed his return to Rome after the Civil War due to some undisciplined troops going on a bit of a rampage.

Always rather impressed by his story.

alfie
Was he then betrayed and sent off to be a Gladiator? Certainly sounds like he was at least one of the inspirations for Russell Crowe.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Captain Mainwaring...

Crafted a superb fighting force from unpromising collection of oddballs. Largely responsible for deterring Hitler from invading Britain.

It only worked because they didn't like it up 'em

Ha, brilliant, Corporal.

Marius was murdered, I thought, by Sulla?

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Captain Mainwaring...

Crafted a superb fighting force from unpromising collection of oddballs...

Corporal - before I belatedly noticed the Captain Mainwaring reference, I thought you were talking about Chris Adams!

guildfordbat wrote:]

Corporal - before I belatedly noticed the Captain Mainwaring reference, I thought you were talking about Chris Adams!

Guildford And of course Chris Adams himself has seen off a certain Winston Churchill!

Very good, Corporal.

Btw, are you a Dad's Army buff? Minor bragging to follow if you are ....

Not a great expert, Guildford, but let's hear it. But let me first speculate what "minor bragging" might be.

How about:
* you once caught Pike at deep square leg in a charity match? Or
* you once set eyes on the elusive Mrs Mainwaring? Or
* you were the first signature on Godfrey's petition to save the local public toilets from closure?

Not far off, Corporal.

One of the minor characters in the later episodes was the Town Clerk. He was played - not that anyone would know this! - by Eric Longworth, a lovely gentleman who was a good friend of Mrs Bat's family and consequently attended our wedding. Eric only died about eighteen months ago. Forty years on, he looked hardly any different to his tv role.

Dad's Army Cricket Question (pretty easy, I think) to end the night.
Which former Test match cricketer (to whom I have no connection whatsoever!) once appeared in Dad's Army?

Fists of Fury wrote:Ha, brilliant, Corporal.

Marius was murdered, I thought, by Sulla?

As I recall Sulla was responsible for sending some goons to try and bump off Marius. However the old man , confronted by his would be assassins , simply stood there in his bath robe with a air of incredulity and said "What! Would you kill Gaius Marius ?" - at which the hit men looked at each other and left politely by the tradesmen's entrance. At least that's the way my old history teacher told it...

Certainly he actually died of natural causes not too long after he had retaken Rome.

I like Dummy's theory And as he is understood to have at one stage rustled up a ragtag army consisting largely of gladiators , the connection is there.

guildfordbat wrote: Dad's Army Cricket Question (pretty easy, I think) to end the night.
Which former Test match cricketer (to whom I have no connection whatsoever!) once appeared in Dad's Army?

Guildford - had forgotten that episode but found out it was FS Trueman Thanks for the reminder. Took a bit of finding on internet when googling - as referring to a team as Dads Army seems to be a routine jibe whenever there are a couple of players over 35!

Excellent research amongst the military archives, Corporal.

I don't rememember these characters Sulla and Marius, that Alfie is going on about, ever being in Dad's Army. Maybe they were in the back row along with Sponge?

Trueman was in Dads army ? Amazing .

I know Derek Pringle appeared in "Chariots of Fire" but that one had escaped me.

Hi Alfie - Hodges challenged Mainwaring to an ARP v Home Guard cricket match and then sneakily signed up a fast bowler who would have played for England but for the war (played by - yes, you've guessed it! - our Fred). Almost inevitably, Godfrey ensured a one wicket win for the good guys after Trueman had to withdraw from the attack early on due to injury.

Classic.

I vaguely remember that one...

Back to the greatest Generals - what about:

George Patton - his daring-do, "damn everyone else" attitude to going forward. During his operations in Sicily, Normandy and The Battle of The Bulge he was noted for his speed of attack covering large distances and capturing huge areas with a ratio of US 3rd Army:enemy losses of 13:1.

Ivan Konev - held off the Germans in the defense of Moscow then launched a counter-offensive which pushed the Germans back.
Under his leadership the Red Army retook Belgorod, Odessa, Kharkov and Kiev. Went on to clear the Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and parts of Czechoslovakia.

Georgy Zhukov - played a pivotal role in leading the Red Army in their reclamation of the Russian states along with Konev. He is the most decorated General in the history of the Russian Empire; although there is some controversy surrounding his role in the Battle of Kursk with Rokossovsky* claiming he wasn't involved in the strategic planning and only showed up after the operations had begun and later claimed all the credit.

Erich von Manstein - a great strategist and military planner who often had to make do with limited resources against an overwhelming enemy in Russia. He was the brains behind the Ardennes Offensive; opting to go through the heavily wooded forests to reach France rather than repeat the expected offensive through Belgium as in the First World War. He was very critical of Hitler denying him defensive flexibility and apparently used to give him a piece of his mind - on many occasions.

*Konstantin Rokossovsky - who himself was made Marshal of the Soviet Union... eventually. Since he had a Polish name he was often overlooked by Stalin in spite of his great military achievements. He was lucky to survive the purges of 1937, famously disobeyed Stalin at the Siege of Stalingrad... knowing that if he hopped on the plane back to Moscow he would more than likely not return - so he stayed on the front line and the rest is history. Also, during another disagreement with Stalin - he insisted on "the two-pronged breakthrough" of the German lines during Operation Bagration in 1944 - as opposed to Stalin - who believed there should only be one point of breakthrough.

Rokossovsky - who held firm in his argument for two points of break-through. Stalin ordered Rokossovsky to "go and think it over" three times, but every time he returned and gave the same answer "Two break-throughs, Comrade Stalin, two break-throughs."

After the third time Stalin remained silent, but walked over to Rokossovsky and put a hand on his shoulder. A tense moment followed as the whole room waited for Stalin to rip the epaulette from Rokossovsky's shoulder; instead, Stalin said "Your confidence speaks for your sound judgement," and ordered the attack to go forward according to Rokossovsky's plan.

The battle was successful and Rokossovsky's reputation was assured. After crushing German Army Group Centre in Belarus, Rokossovsky's armies reached the east bank of the Vistula opposite Warsaw by mid-1944. For these victories he gained the rank of Marshal of the Soviet Union. Stalin once said: "I have no Suvorov, but Rokossovsky is my Bagration."

I concede that Captain Mainwaring perhaps operated on a rather more limited scale than the above gentlemen.

But nonetheless, his brave actions were still of vital importance to the security and well-being of Dear Old England, Corporal.

Imagine being summonsed into a room with Stalin...!

Dicey Reilly wrote:The same could be said about Hitler making the overall decisions (we can leave out the fighting part and decisions on the battlefield bit ), he also had a large army and used his Generals to great effect

Used his Generals to great effect? Like constantly undermining and ignoring their advice (Model, Rommel, von Rundstedt) or constantly sacking them and then re-instating them when their replacements proved not to be up to the task (von Rundstedt, von Manstein). Let us all be greatful that Hitler was in fact a very inept military leader. He was simply too egotistical to heed sound advice given to him by military experts (see also Beck in 1938).

Linebreaker wrote: I vaguely remember that one...

Back to the greatest Generals - what about:

George Patton - his daring-do, "damn everyone else" attitude to going forward. During his operations in Sicily, Normandy and The Battle of The Bulge he was noted for his speed of attack covering large distances and capturing huge areas with a ratio of US 3rd Army:enemy losses of 13:1.

Ivan Konev - held off the Germans in the defense of Moscow then launched a counter-offensive which pushed the Germans back.
Under his leadership the Red Army retook Belgorod, Odessa, Kharkov and Kiev. Went on to clear the Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and parts of Czechoslovakia.

Georgy Zhukov - played a pivotal role in leading the Red Army in their reclamation of the Russian states along with Konev. He is the most decorated General in the history of the Russian Empire; although there is some controversy surrounding his role in the Battle of Kursk with Rokossovsky* claiming he wasn't involved in the strategic planning and only showed up after the operations had begun and later claimed all the credit.

Erich von Manstein - a great strategist and military planner who often had to make do with limited resources against an overwhelming enemy in Russia. He was the brains behind the Ardennes Offensive; opting to go through the heavily wooded forests to reach France rather than repeat the expected offensive through Belgium as in the First World War. He was very critical of Hitler denying him defensive flexibility and apparently used to give him a piece of his mind - on many occasions.

*Konstantin Rokossovsky - who himself was made Marshal of the Soviet Union... eventually. Since he had a Polish name he was often overlooked by Stalin in spite of his great military achievements. He was lucky to survive the purges of 1937, famously disobeyed Stalin at the Siege of Stalingrad... knowing that if he hopped on the plane back to Moscow he would more than likely not return - so he stayed on the front line and the rest is history. Also, during another disagreement with Stalin - he insisted on "the two-pronged breakthrough" of the German lines during Operation Bagration in 1944 - as opposed to Stalin - who believed there should only be one point of breakthrough.

Rokossovsky - who held firm in his argument for two points of break-through. Stalin ordered Rokossovsky to "go and think it over" three times, but every time he returned and gave the same answer "Two break-throughs, Comrade Stalin, two break-throughs."

After the third time Stalin remained silent, but walked over to Rokossovsky and put a hand on his shoulder. A tense moment followed as the whole room waited for Stalin to rip the epaulette from Rokossovsky's shoulder; instead, Stalin said "Your confidence speaks for your sound judgement," and ordered the attack to go forward according to Rokossovsky's plan.

The battle was successful and Rokossovsky's reputation was assured. After crushing German Army Group Centre in Belarus, Rokossovsky's armies reached the east bank of the Vistula opposite Warsaw by mid-1944. For these victories he gained the rank of Marshal of the Soviet Union. Stalin once said: "I have no Suvorov, but Rokossovsky is my Bagration."

A good list of key WWII Generals. A nice anecdote too regarding Rokossovsky I had never heard that before. That Rokossovsky was so prepared to stick to his conviction here is even more remarkable considering he spent 4 years in the GuLAG before being hauled out by Stalin. Would this anecdote be referring specifically to Kursk?

I would be tempted to add Montgomery to the list based on his handling of Overlord and his tactical victory over Rommel at El Alamein.

Also, in case he has not been mentioned already in the wider context of this article, Napoleon.

Gentleman01 wrote: Also, in case he has not been mentioned already in the wider context of this article, Napoleon.

A timely reference to one of the all time greats. But it is also a reminder that ARP warden Hodges often refers to Captain Mainwaring in reverential tones as Napoleon....Presumably in recognition of his strategic vision and leadership qualities....

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
.... But it is also a reminder that ARP warden Hodges often refers to Captain Mainwaring in reverential tones as Napoleon....Presumably in recognition of his strategic vision and leadership qualities....

.... and to think I always believed it to be because Hodges considered Mainwaring a know it all shortarse!

Gentleman01 wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:
*Konstantin Rokossovsky - who himself was made Marshal of the Soviet Union... eventually. Since he had a Polish name he was often overlooked by Stalin in spite of his great military achievements. He was lucky to survive the purges of 1937, famously disobeyed Stalin at the Siege of Stalingrad... knowing that if he hopped on the plane back to Moscow he would more than likely not return - so he stayed on the front line and the rest is history. Also, during another disagreement with Stalin - he insisted on "the two-pronged breakthrough" of the German lines during Operation Bagration in 1944 - as opposed to Stalin - who believed there should only be one point of breakthrough.

Rokossovsky - who held firm in his argument for two points of break-through. Stalin ordered Rokossovsky to "go and think it over" three times, but every time he returned and gave the same answer "Two break-throughs, Comrade Stalin, two break-throughs."

After the third time Stalin remained silent, but walked over to Rokossovsky and put a hand on his shoulder. A tense moment followed as the whole room waited for Stalin to rip the epaulette from Rokossovsky's shoulder; instead, Stalin said "Your confidence speaks for your sound judgement," and ordered the attack to go forward according to Rokossovsky's plan.

The battle was successful and Rokossovsky's reputation was assured. After crushing German Army Group Centre in Belarus, Rokossovsky's armies reached the east bank of the Vistula opposite Warsaw by mid-1944. For these victories he gained the rank of Marshal of the Soviet Union. Stalin once said: "I have no Suvorov, but Rokossovsky is my Bagration."

A good list of key WWII Generals. A nice anecdote too regarding Rokossovsky I had never heard that before. That Rokossovsky was so prepared to stick to his conviction here is even more remarkable considering he spent 4 years in the GuLAG before being hauled out by Stalin. Would this anecdote be referring specifically to Kursk?

I would be tempted to add Montgomery to the list based on his handling of Overlord and his tactical victory over Rommel at El Alamein.

Also, in case he has not been mentioned already in the wider context of this article, Napoleon.

No, it was later than that, Gentleman - Operation Bagration which was about 1 year after Kursk. It began on June 22, 1944.
Once his 1st Belorussian Armay had skirted around the Pripet Marshes, the two pronged offensive took place.

See this map: Operation Bagration

Linebreaker wrote:

Gentleman01 wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:
*Konstantin Rokossovsky - who himself was made Marshal of the Soviet Union... eventually. Since he had a Polish name he was often overlooked by Stalin in spite of his great military achievements. He was lucky to survive the purges of 1937, famously disobeyed Stalin at the Siege of Stalingrad... knowing that if he hopped on the plane back to Moscow he would more than likely not return - so he stayed on the front line and the rest is history. Also, during another disagreement with Stalin - he insisted on "the two-pronged breakthrough" of the German lines during Operation Bagration in 1944 - as opposed to Stalin - who believed there should only be one point of breakthrough.

Rokossovsky - who held firm in his argument for two points of break-through. Stalin ordered Rokossovsky to "go and think it over" three times, but every time he returned and gave the same answer "Two break-throughs, Comrade Stalin, two break-throughs."

After the third time Stalin remained silent, but walked over to Rokossovsky and put a hand on his shoulder. A tense moment followed as the whole room waited for Stalin to rip the epaulette from Rokossovsky's shoulder; instead, Stalin said "Your confidence speaks for your sound judgement," and ordered the attack to go forward according to Rokossovsky's plan.

The battle was successful and Rokossovsky's reputation was assured. After crushing German Army Group Centre in Belarus, Rokossovsky's armies reached the east bank of the Vistula opposite Warsaw by mid-1944. For these victories he gained the rank of Marshal of the Soviet Union. Stalin once said: "I have no Suvorov, but Rokossovsky is my Bagration."

A good list of key WWII Generals. A nice anecdote too regarding Rokossovsky I had never heard that before. That Rokossovsky was so prepared to stick to his conviction here is even more remarkable considering he spent 4 years in the GuLAG before being hauled out by Stalin. Would this anecdote be referring specifically to Kursk?

I would be tempted to add Montgomery to the list based on his handling of Overlord and his tactical victory over Rommel at El Alamein.

Also, in case he has not been mentioned already in the wider context of this article, Napoleon.

No, it was later than that, Gentleman - Operation Bagration which was about 1 year after Kursk. It began on June 22, 1944.
Once his 1st Belorussian Armay had skirted around the Pripet Marshes, the two pronged offensive took place.

See this map: Operation Bagration

Ahh I had not read your original post thoroughly enough, I see you had already mentioned it referred to Bagration.

Assuming we'll stick to field leaders rather than political leaders:

Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn Yūsuf ibn Ayyūb - Winning at Hattin (1187) was a blow from which the Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, and the Christian Crusades in general, never recovered.

Charles Martel - Won the Battle of Tours (732). The Spanish Caliphate never reached across the Pyrenees again.

Napoleone di Buonaparte - His political career and his downfall aside, he made himself the modern standard for generalship. He took command of a semi-trained, underfed army of draftees and, for all practical purposes, kept the French Revolution going.

Yi Sun-shin - Against a Japanese fleet of 113 won the Battle of Myeongnyang (1587) with 13 surviving ships from Chilcheollyang two months earlier.

Alexander Suvorov - In his late 60s led a Russian army in and out of completely alien and mountainous terrain in Switzerland while Boney was just starting out over the border in Italy. Strangely, the two never met. Won all his battles, although to no strategic conclusion, and was recalled and promoted by a jealous czar.

Haig managed to kill a lot of the enemy, unfortunately he killed nearly as many allied troops.

The battle of Kursk the Russians, due to Bletchley Park, knew the timing of the attack and how the Germans were going to use a pincer movement to cut off the Russians in the salient also they knew the army groups and tank units that were to be used.

Haig I think he will be mostly remembered for the Somme's first morning, he may have had the information to hand that possibly would have averted some of the casualties that morning and the following months. The French general staff had a better understanding of how to conduct a battle of this nature but due to the mistrust and dislike between the British and French Haig did not seek their advice.

The Russians were always sceptical about intelligence from other Allies. They even captured a German scout on the eve of the attack who told the truth (as much as he knew about the timing of the attack and tank concentrations) but this information was also treated with suspicion.

It didn't really matter though since the Russians knew enough about the inevitable Offensive and were well prepared with over 10 lines of defence including all the reserve army units which stretched back over 50 miles from the front lines.

Sargon the great. Made Akkad the greatest power in the world and dominated the surrounding area.