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Exeter Chiefs: An Honest Progression

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Post by Ozzy3213 Wed 25 Jan - 15:20

In all of the excitement around the final pool matches of the Heineken Cup at the weekend, a significant result for a small club from the South West of England may have gone unnoticed. For those who are unaware Exeter Chiefs beat Union Sportive des Arlequins Perpignanais, better known simply as Perpignan, by thirty-one points to fourteen, to win their pool and progress to the quarter finals of Amlin Challenge Cup.

Whilst this tournament may be considered the ugly stepsister to the Cinderella magic of the Heineken Cup, the achievement of the Chiefs in reaching the last eight should not be underestimated. Having been drawn in a pool with USAP and the RaboDirect Pro 12's only entrants, Newport Gwent Dragons, the Chiefs were given scant chance by most pundits and every bookmaker around of topping the pool. With qualification for next seasons Heineken Cup unlikely for either the French or Welsh sides through their league positions, their most realistic hope of returning to the top table in Europe was winning the Amlin. As such the Chiefs would need to go some to progress from arguably the toughest pool in the competition.

So the question is, given the frequent and ever increasing murmurings from numerous Aviva Premiership head coaches about salary caps, and how the English teams are hamstrung in Europe as a result, how have they achieved this relative success? You have to remember that less than two seasons ago this was a team plying their trade in the second tier of English domestic rugby.

They have precious few 'star turns' amongst their squad, with Tom Johnson the only inclusion amongst the 64 players selected by Stuart Lancaster for England's current elite squads, and their style of play appears to be a simple one. They ensure that their basics are correct, and work hard, and if that does not work, they simply work harder again. Their on field style, is a clear reflection of one of the two men who have been instrumental in them finding themselves where they are today, head coach Rob Baxter. Whilst chairman Tony Rowe must take a lot of credit for the off field decisions that have been taken, it is Baxter who has produced a side capable of competing against whatever is thrown at them.

He is clearly a very intelligent and honest man, as reflected in his side, but beyond that he appears to have a rare and special talent, and that is the ability to get the best from players, indeed sometimes more than they even knew they could give. There are players a plenty within the squad, who have tried and failed at other clubs, yet as part of the Chiefs line up do not look out of place competing against the top international players that other sides bring to Sandy Park. His honesty clearly plays a key part in extracting performances from his players, but it is the realistic targets that he sets for them, and his assessments of their achievements that mark him out as a man who knows where he wants to be, and how to get there.

Having finished 8th in their first season in the top flight, above former champions London Wasps, Sale Sharks and Newcastle Falcons, his stated aims for this season were simple, to produce a better result in each game than they had in the corresponding fixture last season. Whilst they may not completely achieve this target, Baxter knows that if they get anywhere close to it, then they will be well clear of any relegation worries, and potentially challenging for Heineken Cup rugby next season, or even a play off place. I remind you again at this stage, that this is a team who less than two years ago were playing against the likes of Birmingham & Solihull and Coventry, so achievement of a play off place or Heineken Cup rugby should not be underestimated in any way.

Baxter's realism was never more apparent than when interviewed after the teams win over Worcester Warriors on 4th December, which saw his side firmly embedded in the top half of the table.

“Being right up there in the league is just reward for the hard work we have put in this season,” said Baxter. “However, we need to continue working as hard as we have over the past few seasons. We need to move forward in small steps. I’m not expecting to do things in leaps and bounds and our season will not be defined on whether we finish in the top four or top six. Our season will be defined on whether we are a good, solid Premiership side. That’s what we are aiming to be and it looks like we are heading in the right direction."

Baxter clearly knows that you can't go directly from bottom to top in one go, much as you can't go straight from 1st to 5th gear in a car, as it will stall, and it is this realism that will enable the Chiefs in time to become one of the top sides in the Premiership. The off field structures are there, with improvements being made to the ground which will increase capacity, and an ever increasing fan base to fill it. On the field, good players will be drawn by Baxter and the clubs honesty and will assist with making the improvements required to go up another level.

The club has become almost a beacon for teams in the lower leagues, a model for how to break into the England's' rugby elite. They give hope to fans and players alike, that rugby is still a game for all shapes and sizes, be they built like Chris Budgen or Sireli Naqelevuki, and they seem from the outside looking in to be a club that hold the games traditional values dear. Baxter is the glue that holds it all together, and the club need to ensure he remains if they are to continue on their current upward trend.

On the first weekend in April, they will travel to Paris to take on Stade Francais for the right to potentially meet Toulon in the South of France in the semi final a couple of weeks later. Over the same period the season before last they were battling with Nottingham, London Welsh and Doncaster for the right to face Bristol and a have a shot at the Premiership. They have moved on quickly, but have done so in the right way, and most neutrals will be hoping that they continue to do so. How far they can go, time till tell, but if they continue their honest progression, then 2014/15 Aviva Premiership Champions maybe isn't such a pipe dream for The Tribe after all.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 25 Jan - 15:25

Cant be bothered to read that but I agree.

Success story of English rugby.

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Post by flankertye Wed 25 Jan - 15:30

Good luck to them fantastic team, who haven't simply bought success like many others. I think they will continue to be a presence in the premiership for quite some time

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 25 Jan - 15:34

Pete, stop it, you're going to make me cry Sad

Chief

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Post by SirJohnnyEnglish Wed 25 Jan - 15:35

Cracking read Pete!
Really goes to show what you can do if you put a long term plan down and stick to it. Chiefs will only get better as the years go on especially with the academy set up they have. The likes of Newcastle, Bristol, Leeds, Cornish Pirates etc should see them as the blue print

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 25 Jan - 15:36

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Pete, stop it, you're going to make me cry Sad

Chief

Just wait till you start winning things, then the jealous snide remarks will come in Wink

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Post by Driver Wed 25 Jan - 15:38

Fantastic read Pete.

Just shows what a little elbow grease and self confidence can do for any rugby team whether it be Exeter Chiefs or Seaton Carew 2nds. Rob Baxter for my 2 cents sums up what a rugby coach is. He has set his stall and is clear in his intentions and ambitions for Exeter Chiefs.
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Post by Comfort Wed 25 Jan - 15:39

I do have a soft spot for exeter, ever since they were written off as really just a bump in the way for Bristol to be promoted to the premiership.

Baxter is an excellant coach.

And please keep Craig Mitchell playing at the top of his game and injury free for us Hug

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Post by Glas a du Wed 25 Jan - 15:43

The Argy outside half is a decent player though isn't he. Seems to run the game very well.
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Post by Comfort Wed 25 Jan - 15:48

he looks very evil when he's place kicking though.

the stare!!! Shocked

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Post by dammit_chris Wed 25 Jan - 15:52

Really good read Pete, Exeter have certainly done very well - would be interested to see how they would have done if it wasn't a WC year and whether that would have impacted upon their league position, but you can't fault them at all.

Perhaps a next article on the demise of Wasps!

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Post by Guest Wed 25 Jan - 15:57

They show the benefit of a good coach and a cohesive unit. They have had injuries too key players such as naqlevuki etc but they have the intelligence to work out how to play with out them.

Exeter also have taken some also rans at other clubs and made them in to good players.

Also their academy is starting to come through so they should be proud. A great coach doing a great job

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Post by Suspicious lurker Wed 25 Jan - 16:00

They'd be much better if it wasn't for Steeno (the basterd), isn't that right asbo Laugh
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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 25 Jan - 16:29

Naughty boy warning

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Post by HammerofThunor Wed 25 Jan - 17:53

I think it was one of the mistakes after Leeds stayed up a couple of seasons ago. They came back the next season saying they wanted to challenge for HEC place. Baxter is much more pragmatic. Set massive targets you're unlikely to meet and the moral will be down in the squad. Set reasonable ones and you'll hopefully make them and everyone gets a boost to push for more.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 25 Jan - 17:57

[quote="Ozzy3213"]

the achievement of the Chiefs in reaching the last eight should not be underestimated. Having been drawn in a pool with USAP and the RaboDirect Pro 12's only entrants, Newport Gwent Dragons, the Chiefs were given scant chance by most pundits and every bookmaker around of topping the pool.

Ozzy,

I think most thought Perpignan would walk this group. I like the Chiefs as they have that them against the rest mentality that we have down at the Dragons, though ours missing somewhat this season.

The glory is in the HC but the Amlin is not an easy competition with some big names in it and sometimes teams have to realise their level and set standards accordingly.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Thu 26 Jan - 8:49

That's the thing with the Amlin now bedfordwelsh, it is a lot stronger competition than it was, in the amin because fo the strength of the Top 14. With 8 French teams in it, there has to be quality on show, so for the Chiefs to have knocked out last seasons Heineken Cup semi finalists is a serious acheivement in my view.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 26 Jan - 9:21

HammerofThunor wrote:I think it was one of the mistakes after Leeds stayed up a couple of seasons ago. They came back the next season saying they wanted to challenge for HEC place. Baxter is much more pragmatic. Set massive targets you're unlikely to meet and the moral will be down in the squad. Set reasonable ones and you'll hopefully make them and everyone gets a boost to push for more.

It was a bit different with Leeds, they just didnt have the money at all to sustain Premiership rugby in the first place. Back and Key then got screwed by the club pulling the investment from under them, and not allowing them to spend the RFU EPS cash on extra wages as had initialy been the plan.
Exeter is a better financed club and as far as Im aware is still breaking even, and Id be pretty certain they are spending more on players than Leeds did in their relegation season.

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Post by Ozzy3213 Thu 26 Jan - 9:23

Totally agree PSW, for clubs to be successful they have to have a sustainable business model, which it appears to me that the Chiefs have.

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Post by red_stag Thu 26 Jan - 9:52

Agree with all of this. I was really impressed with the setup in Sandy Park when I was there. Its genuinely a long time since I've been that impressed with a club setup.
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Post by HammerofThunor Thu 26 Jan - 9:58

The criteria for admission to the premiership not so bad after all?

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Post by Ozzy3213 Thu 26 Jan - 10:07

I think that is a different debate altogether Thunor. Some aspects of the criteria are good and reasonable to expect. Others are not. I will have a more detailed look into it I think and put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) and see what everyone thinks on the subject when I have some time. OK
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 26 Jan - 10:40

The priciples and reasons behind the crieria being in place are good, as Ozzy syas there may be some debate over exactlyw hat they should and shouldnt be.

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Post by DaveM Thu 26 Jan - 10:42

For me the thing with the entry criteria is that they shouldn't be entry criteria, they should be longterm requirements. You could have say 3 years to meet them after promotion, with automatic relegation if you fail to manage this.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 26 Jan - 10:55

DaveM wrote:For me the thing with the entry criteria is that they shouldn't be entry criteria, they should be longterm requirements. You could have say 3 years to meet them after promotion, with automatic relegation if you fail to manage this.

Part of the reason they exist is to stop short termisim for temporary smash and grab raids on the premiership sky cash from clubs (investors) who have no real long term ambition to stay in the premiership. That would make their life easier. Invest in short term contracts, get promooted at teh expense of a club like exeter, dont spend anything, get relegated, walk away with the profit or sell the club and premiership spot on. It happens in soccer all the time.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 26 Jan - 12:55

HammerofThunor wrote:The criteria for admission to the premiership not so bad after all?
No complaints re the criteria, Thunor, as long as it is similarly applied to those already at the top table OK

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Post by Moorsman Thu 26 Jan - 14:44

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Exeter is a better financed club and as far as Im aware is still breaking even, and Id be pretty certain they are spending more on players than Leeds did in their relegation season.

We (Chiefs) actually made approx. £600K profit with about the same turnover, £8.2M, that Irish recently announced a £1.2M loss from. Real benefits of owning not only our own ground but also having a very lucrative conference/banqueting facility.

Thanks for your kind words Ozzy thumbsup
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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 26 Jan - 14:53

Welcome Moorsman - there's a few of us Chief on here, but another one will do v nicely!

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Post by Ozzy3213 Thu 26 Jan - 14:58

No need for thanks Moorsman, was just calling it as I see it, but cheers for your words nonetheless.

And welcome to the board, always good to have new members views. OK
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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu 26 Jan - 15:04

Oggy Oggy Oggy

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Post by Ozzy3213 Thu 26 Jan - 15:16

Chief s Chief s Chief s

Wink
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Post by HERSH Thu 26 Jan - 15:29

Exeter are one of the reasons why we must keep Promotion and Relegation, Great club that is growing stronger and stronger, great business model for clubs like Leeds and Newcastle to follow.

Plus they have a very good coaching set up.

Well Done Chiefs Chief Hug
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Post by Bathman_in_London Thu 26 Jan - 16:13

A very good article!

I'm so pleased Exeter have really taken their chance in the AP and with their status as a regional academy, plus healthy finances and a good stadium, the future looks bright!

As a side note I'm very pleased for Rob Baxter, he used to come down to help with the uni teams when I was there (and he was still playing) and seemed like a really genuine guy.

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Post by Shifty Thu 26 Jan - 16:59

They got where they are because they had someone willing to invest money into the club, it's no different than Blackburn Rovers in the 90's to be honest when Jack Walker spent a lot of money there.

From what I read the Chairman spent something like £7-8 Million to upgrade the stadium of his own money and subsidises the club so it can spend the maximum of £4.23 million on the clubs wage budget.

I don't mean to be rude but as Chelsea and Manchester City have shown if you have someone with money to burn bankrolling your club you can make progress really quickly, the problem is as has been shown in the past is that if that money disappears they no longer have that advantage.
And Exeter cannot rely on their history and prestige to pull them through difficult times in the way a clubs like Northampton, Bath and Harelquins can.

At the moment their a small club, with a rich benefactor, who are trying hard to upset the apple cart and split the traditional old boys club, when the money dries up, Exeter will probably sink just as quickly.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 26 Jan - 17:17

AlynDavies wrote:They got where they are because they had someone willing to invest money into the club, it's no different than Blackburn Rovers in the 90's to be honest when Jack Walker spent a lot of money there.

From what I read the Chairman spent something like £7-8 Million to upgrade the stadium of his own money and subsidises the club so it can spend the maximum of £4.23 million on the clubs wage budget.

I don't mean to be rude but as Chelsea and Manchester City have shown if you have someone with money to burn bankrolling your club you can make progress really quickly, the problem is as has been shown in the past is that if that money disappears they no longer have that advantage.
And Exeter cannot rely on their history and prestige to pull them through difficult times in the way a clubs like Northampton, Bath and Harelquins can.

At the moment their a small club, with a rich benefactor, who are trying hard to upset the apple cart and split the traditional old boys club, when the money dries up, Exeter will probably sink just as quickly.

the difference here is that the club hes invested in is still fan owned and more importantly isnt reliant on that money to break even ( or as ive been informed actually turns a profit)
So long as he doesnt take that cash back the club can function at this level without any additional investment. Thats why people like myself think its well run. The soccer club examples you gave are very different, they were never able to sustain their status without continued injections of cash ... they were never going to be profitable opertaing the way they were ( I dont follow soccer closely but havent blackburn stayed in the premiership?, just tax avoidance schemes.
Exeter are certainly different to Bath who have a business looking to profit by investing in them which expects a return on its capital at some point. Thats gotta be a worry the way things have gone so far. The return for Exeters investment is their place a as viable premiership club and the only viable major sports club in the region. When you look at Plymouth and Portsmouth FC you're fighting a losing battle trying to convince me that Exeter Cheifs finances are built on sand.

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Post by Moorsman Thu 26 Jan - 17:26

AlynDavies wrote:They got where they are because they had someone willing to invest money into the club, it's no different than Blackburn Rovers in the 90's to be honest when Jack Walker spent a lot of money there.

From what I read the Chairman spent something like £7-8 Million to upgrade the stadium of his own money and subsidises the club so it can spend the maximum of £4.23 million on the clubs wage budget.

I don't mean to be rude but as Chelsea and Manchester City have shown if you have someone with money to burn bankrolling your club you can make progress really quickly, the problem is as has been shown in the past is that if that money disappears they no longer have that advantage.
And Exeter cannot rely on their history and prestige to pull them through difficult times in the way a clubs like Northampton, Bath and Harelquins can.

At the moment their a small club, with a rich benefactor, who are trying hard to upset the apple cart and split the traditional old boys club, when the money dries up, Exeter will probably sink just as quickly.

You may well have read that our Chairman, Tony Rowe has put in £7-8 million, in the form of sponsorship, but what ever the figure is this is over a period of some 12 years. He didn't fund the stadium, we were fortunate enough to sell our old County Ground home to a housing developer at the top of the market. This paid for the major part of the development but we took out a loan to cover the rest. I use the term 'we' in this as Exeter Chiefs is a members club owned by approx. 700 members (numbers limited by members agreement). The Chairman's company is still a major sponsor but his money is dwarfed by the income from our conferencing facilities and matchday income. Anyone who thinks they can rely onhistory and prestige to pull them through difficult times is living in cloud cookoo land, we're far more grounded than that in the West Country.
Not sure we're trying to upset anything, the aim is to develop both on field and off field activities in a controlled way so we can not only sustain top flight rugby in Devon but push on to compete at the highest level in UK and Europe. It's very much a softly softly catchee monkey approach.
It's also bloody good fun after many years in the lower leagues. thumbsup
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Post by HammerofThunor Thu 26 Jan - 17:37

Don't most teams rely on sponsors? How much has Caterpillar put into Leicester over the years? Big difference between that and a money man coming in to buy success. It's not like Exeter are hoovering up all the best players. They're building a good squad out of decent players. The Man C and Chelsea comparisons are laughable. Can you imagine what the response would be if their managers said "We just want to improve on last year" Probably get sacked.

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Post by Shifty Thu 26 Jan - 18:07

I dont really think the comparisons are laughable, I like the progress that Exeter have made, but they do have someone with money putting it into the club, if you call it sponsorship or whatever, but it's likely without the initial investment that theyd still be in the lower divisions.

I'm just saying it has not all been a huge fairytale, but simply that they lucked into someone who is willing to invest in the club.
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Post by HammerofThunor Thu 26 Jan - 18:49

Every single professional outfit relies on sponsorship. In every sport. I don't see how it's any different.

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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate Thu 26 Jan - 19:11

Alyn,
it certainly feels like a fairytale - there's a very high grin factor at Sandy Park, win or lose.

I do think you're wrong with the "buying success" analogy to footbal, though. Tony Rowe doesn't own the club and he's accountable to trustees of the members who hold the shares in the operating company. It's entirely possible that the sponsorship from his company was above the market rate in the early years, but I don't know that. I'm fairly confident that the sponsorship isn't below the market rate, though, since I'm led to believe that the membership keep a fairly sharp eye on that.

It's also not beeen a quick fix - Exe spent about 12 years building up to the Prem. It was only in the last couple of seasons that they were realistic contenders to the Prem yo-yo teams. Since promotion, there doesn't seem to have been much flashing of the cash - Craig Mitchell and Gonzo Comacho would be the highest profile incomers, both good solid players, but not marquee level.

I would agree that without Tony Rowe, it's entirely possible that Exe would still be in the lower leagues, but much more due to his drive and enthusiasm than his money.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu 26 Jan - 19:37

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Alyn,
it certainly feels like a fairytale - there's a very high grin factor at Sandy Park, win or lose.

I do think you're wrong with the "buying success" analogy to footbal, though. Tony Rowe doesn't own the club and he's accountable to trustees of the members who hold the shares in the operating company. It's entirely possible that the sponsorship from his company was above the market rate in the early years, but I don't know that. I'm fairly confident that the sponsorship isn't below the market rate, though, since I'm led to believe that the membership keep a fairly sharp eye on that.

It's also not beeen a quick fix - Exe spent about 12 years building up to the Prem. It was only in the last couple of seasons that they were realistic contenders to the Prem yo-yo teams. Since promotion, there doesn't seem to have been much flashing of the cash - Craig Mitchell and Gonzo Comacho would be the highest profile incomers, both good solid players, but not marquee level.

I would agree that without Tony Rowe, it's entirely possible that Exe would still be in the lower leagues, but much more due to his drive and enthusiasm than his money.
+1. Absolutely right. AD, nobody is trying to paint a fairy tale picture of Exe's rise to the top, and there's no doubt that without TR's drive, enthusiasm and business acumen, it would have been a much harder struggle. Possibly SWComms sponsorship money might not have been exactly replaceable or even at te same terms, but you're analogy is simply not a good one in ths case OK

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Post by Comfort Fri 27 Jan - 10:56

guys, while i have a group of chiefs fans together, any of you care to give me your thoughts on Craig Mitchells season so far? How do you rate him? strengths/weaknesses?

I've had a lot of discussion with fans in wales, but never really a completely fresh view. cheers!

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Post by Ozzy3213 Fri 27 Jan - 11:01

I did mention Tony Rowe in the OP, as his input at the club has been crucial to it's progression, but from what I know, he is far form a sugar daddy to the club in the way that Jack Walker was at Blackburn. The club has a sound business model, that like all clubs relies in part on sponsorship revenue. If TR's business did not sponsor the Chiefs they would simply look to attract another sponsor.

As a comparison, Bath Rugby have an investor, a sugar daddy if you like, in Bruce Craig, and have attracted top South African internationals along with an All Black World Cup winning outside half. They sit below the Chiefs in the table, and looking in from the outside you do not get the same feeling of a club trying to build a sustainable model to achieve success.

That is why I believe that Chiefs are right in how they are going about their business. Other Championship or NL1 sides can follow in the Chiefs footsteps by putting similar structures and people in place and improve their standing accordingly, which can only be good for rugby in this country.
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Post by Moorsman Fri 27 Jan - 11:25

Comfort - Craig looked a bit out of place and off the pace when he came back from the WC but he has started to show some very positive developments in his game. Criag's front row play has moved forward, when he started with us had a tendancy to be pushed up but this isn't happening now. His loose play has been really good both with ball in hand and tackling.
The fact that he has started to feature regularly in the match day 23 is testament to this. Rob and the coaches only select those they feel are perforning best from the squad. I reckon that in time he'll become a regular first choice for Wales.
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Post by Effervescing Elephant Fri 27 Jan - 12:00

Never thought i'd read about Exeter Chiefs being compared to Man City and Chelsea. I'll tell Tony that he'll be known as Roweski from now on.
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Post by Comfort Fri 27 Jan - 12:07

cheers moorsmen! fingers crossed he can continue his development then!

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 27 Jan - 12:25

Moorsman wrote:Comfort - Craig looked a bit out of place and off the pace when he came back from the WC but he has started to show some very positive developments in his game. Criag's front row play has moved forward, when he started with us had a tendancy to be pushed up but this isn't happening now. His loose play has been really good both with ball in hand and tackling.
The fact that he has started to feature regularly in the match day 23 is testament to this. Rob and the coaches only select those they feel are perforning best from the squad. I reckon that in time he'll become a regular first choice for Wales.
+1 I'd second what Moorsman says. Thin he's pretty close to first-choice TH for the BIG games now - has taken him a little while to get there, but not surprising given that he missed pre-season etc. Most importantly it looks like he's bought into the Chiefs ethic too Chief

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Post by Comfort Fri 27 Jan - 12:38

Excellant news, cheers guys, yeah he'd broken his arm (elbow maybe?) last season, he was (and should still be) 2nd choice tighthead for Wales behind Adam. Very happy for Mitchell to have the work ethic and mindframe Exeter seems to ingrain into its forwards, they're there to work hard, push themselves and set a platform to win the game. If they dont have that platform, it looks like each and every one of them is taking it personally. I dont think Mitchell would have developed that edge to his game (as strongly and naturally) if he'd left the Ospreys for any of the other welsh regions. Said as a blues fan!

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Post by clalan Fri 27 Jan - 17:27

Comfort, Craig has improved greatly IMHO since I first saw him in a Chiefs shirt. His scrummaging is solid and good in the break out.
Not sure if we still do live scrums in training (no scrum machine) but if we do, I think that helps to get the best out of people.

As for Mr Rowe chiefs main sponsor, I think he has also got a lot of publicity for his company being linked to Chiefs not sure what the going rate for that is.
We used to joke that his company name was on everything in the County Ground days, but the man believed in Exeter rugby, and its his drive and ability to get the board to sell the old ground at the top of the market, that has got us here today, and what a dream it is.

Glad to have found 606, love a good debate (always friendly of course).
Like Moorsman, Ozzy I thank you for your kind words and also from others on this thread.

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Post by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 27 Jan - 19:35

Clalan, welcome to v2 - good to see another familiar face (I also masquerade as black_otter!)

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