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Why did Scotland lose at Murrayfield? Post mortem.

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Which played a bigger part in Scotland's downfall in Murrayfield?

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Post by KickAndChase Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:58 pm

I hate saying it but ... discuss. No WUMs please.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:06 pm

they lost because they made basic handling errors.

maybe lack of ability, maybe nerves.

but they very much reminded me of the england sides weve seen over the last few years, appear to be potentialy a lot better than they are.


they did totally outplay england in most aspects of the game, only their execution in broken play really let them down.

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Post by KickAndChase Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:07 pm

Here's my thoughts: had Laidlaw been selected for the first 15 squad the whole emphasis of training and preparation would have been completely different - positive, moving rugby as opposed to a territorial kicking game. Is it any wonder Scotland squander chances like the ones they did when they just are not used to scoring tries at the best of times (let alone in a Calcutta cup match)?

I did notice at least 3 knock ons that came directly from a Laidlaw pass ... but Laidlaw's pass was each time actually okay (maybe someone wants to correct my bias on this?) just in very different style to Parks. I reckon they should have had him on the training ground as often as possible with Weir on the bench - if we're not going to start ousting Parks now ... WHEN WILL WE?! Who cares that Jackson is injured, that doesn't make Parks suddenly reliable.

Cusiter played okay: he earned us a couple of penalties but he did get isolated a couple of times too. I only say Blair makes more sense so as not to rock the backline-boat so much if we're to play Laidlaw and in light of the following...

Finally, Evans was effective on the wing but I can't really say Jones was. Whilst I know Jones is a good player, I'd rather have S Lamont there and put Scott at 12 - honestly what are you going to lose? Lamont was somehow more invisible at 12 than he is at 11.

The only positive out of this is that nobody got injured (not even made-of-glass Ramont who managed to stay the course and looked okay).

The noose is calling for Andy Robinson. Someone used the word indefensible in another thread and that pretty much sums up my thoughts on this match.

And for the record ... genuinely being completely objective ... that was a try!!!


Last edited by KickAndChase on Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I contradicted myself ! :O)

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Post by Shifty Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:07 pm

Poor coaching, poor game plan, the usual problem if building themselves up only to fall short of their own expectations.
Andy Nicol every year is totally full of it, and every year Scotland bottle it.

I have never rated Robinson as a coach, he was hopelesely exposed as Englands coach, at least with Scotland he can get away with pretending to beat tier B Nations, and beat Italy to avoid a white wash each year.

If Wales click on the day, and Scotland go there to try and bully them up front then Wales could stick a record score on Scotland.

Denton, Gray and Lamont are the only decent players Scotland have on this showing.

Drop Parks, get back to a quick rucking, fitness based gamne, and try and make space for Jones, Evans and Lamont outside, other wise go and play in the 6 Nations B.
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Post by Poorfour Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:19 pm

The supposed Scottish dominance in the setpiece never materialised, which could be a big problem for them in later matches.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:25 pm

poor composure when in sight of the tryline and excellent last-ditch defense from England. Also Cusiter would be better if he spent more time passing the ball and less waving his arms around.

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Post by Scot Abroad Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:25 pm

The referee had a shocker as well which didn't help us.

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Post by Imperialbigdave Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:26 pm

laidlaw shouldve started at fly half, thats a given.

Blair must start at scrumhalf next week. Not because of the club partnership, but because cusiters crabbing was absolutely criminal.

Dont agree that Jones was bad. He was faultless in defence, made some crucial tackles, and when he came looking for work, he didnt just take into contact, but distributed it, something few wingers ever do. Evans squandered a massive overlap at one point by doing the opposite, heads down and run straight into contact.

Robinson has a lot to answer for with regards to his midfield selections.
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Post by EnglishReign Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:27 pm

Nothing to do with selection. Just a mixture of poor handling and good defence/discipline from England.

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Post by George Carlin Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:29 pm

I was initially very upset that I couldn't watch this today but now I'm thanking my lucky stars - it sounds like a car crash from a Scots perspective.

I would be very grateful for the usual Scots fans' thoughts on this.

Sounds like the elephant in the room stayed there - you cannot play Parks when the rest of your XV are focused around producing fast ball. Will this be the kick in the pants that Robinson needs to finally get rid of Dan?

I would rather lose on my feet playing an exciting game than die on my knees playing a kicking game that has never been good enough to achieve consistent results.

But well done to England incidentally - sounds like they carried themselves well and made hay whilst they could.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:29 pm

Also while I like the Lamont brothers somebody should explain to them they are allowed to pass the ball.

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Post by Knowsit17 Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:31 pm

Laidlaw over Parks, simply put Robinson made a terrible call and it showed. Parks should probably be fourth choice for Scotland behind Laidlaw, Jackson and Weir.

Scotland still could/should have won, they bossed England in the loose but lacked the killer pass.

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Post by KickAndChase Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:31 pm

George Carlin wrote:I was initially very upset that I couldn't watch this today but now I'm thanking my lucky stars - it sounds like a car crash from a Scots perspective.

I would be very grateful for the usual Scots fans' thoughts on this.

Sounds like the elephant in the room stayed there - you cannot play Parks when the rest of your XV are focused around producing fast ball. Will this be the kick in the pants that Robinson needs to finally get rid of Dan?

I would rather lose on my feet playing an exciting game than die on my knees playing a kicking game that has never been good enough to achieve consistent results.

But well done to England incidentally - sounds like they carried themselves well and made hay whilst they could.

It was the same level as Wales Scotland last year. Only time I've felt like walking away from my beloved team.

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Post by Hood83 Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:32 pm

Jesus, you lot make it sound like you smashed us. You had a couple of breakaways that should have led to tries. And in this regard looked better than us. But at the breakdown and set piece, where i thought you'd monster us, i thought you were very poor. Not like a Scottish team at all and worse than recent teams in these areas.

If we hadn't kicked back most of the ball we turned over i think we would have looked a lot better.

Your handling was atrocious. When England have that problem it's seen as a lack of basic skills, and a fair comment. Maybe the same applies with Scotland.

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Post by gowales Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:32 pm

Didn't take their chances. Didn't dominate with the forwards.

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Post by english warrior Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:55 pm

Knock- ons were a constant, often in good positions and a lack of spontanaity, which conspired to make the Scots very pedestrian indeed, and happily provided England with an inkling of Momentum, positivity and confidence, which may well serve them well in this 6 nations. Thank you Dan Parks, and AR, for their much appreciated contribution to Englands campaign!! Very Happy

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:58 pm

must say though, Dan Parks - why? I've watched a fair bit of H-Cup this season and Weir and Laidlaw have been outplaying him week-in week-out pretty comfortably. He didn't even kick well from hand today...

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Post by gowales Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:01 pm

I don't think AR thought Parks would have such a shocker. To be fair his kicking is usually good. After todays game though i doubt we'll see him a Scotland shirt for much longer.

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Post by Scot Abroad Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:10 pm

With some of the performances in the Scotland A game, I can see a vastly different backline for the next game.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:11 pm

I suppose you could sya the reason Scotland lost today, was because they (ARROGANT) Thinking that all they has to do was turn up and the game was theirs....That and selling those Calcutta shirts too early. Whistle

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Post by eirebilly Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:20 pm

I think that it is a mental thing really. Scotland have made the breaks for years but simply fail to convert. Their self belief is very low.
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Post by gowales Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:24 pm

Its very easy to blame the coach. I honestly couldn't see much changing with a change of coach.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:25 pm

Learn to catch, start Blair and Laidlaw over Parks, done. I feel bad for Parks, it wasn't his fault that he was picked and isn't good enough and he must feel terrible
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Post by mystiroakey Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:26 pm

eirebilly wrote:I think that it is a mental thing really. Scotland have made the breaks for years but simply fail to convert. Their self belief is very low.

that has no bearing in the game today- the one place they have a mental belief is at home against england. howveer they lost because normally england would give away alot of penalities in defense- today england gave them nothing. we could also say they lost because they cant score tries- thats not gonna change over night !

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Post by eirebilly Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:35 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Learn to catch, start Blair and Laidlaw over Parks, done. I feel bad for Parks, it wasn't his fault that he was picked and isn't good enough and he must feel terrible

Absolutely, i was not that critical of AR for selecting Parks but after the try and the missed penalty to touch, he should have removed him immediately.
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Post by eirebilly Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:40 pm

I would love to say that Scotland will turn this around but i have been saying that for years. On this performance Italy will almost certainly beat Scotland.
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Post by mystiroakey Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:43 pm

id back scotland to beat italy. anyone spouting that italy are 'almost certainties' is in fairyland


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Post by Guest Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:45 pm

Seen Sunday afternoon pub teams exploit space and handle better than Scotland, it was awful.
Part of me died watching that.
England well all this talk of rejuvenated expansive rugby for the last couple of weeks! young fresh squad! it was shocking.

It was like watching two drunk tramps fighting over a bag of chips and calling it a boxing match.

France Ireland Wales and Italy will not lose any sleep over these two.

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Post by eirebilly Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:47 pm

Yeah it was dire wasnt it view.

Still it is the first weekend of the 6N so anything can still happen Very Happy

Ireland v Wales is bound to be shocking as well now Wink
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Post by Guest Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:48 pm

May i add the whole of the Southern Hemisphere would be laughing at the drivel produced,
They would back their youth teams to beat Scotland and England at the moment.

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Post by Guest Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:49 pm

Your right i expect nothing but the same from Wales and Ireland, poor rugby that could only dream of the skill and power of the Southern Hemisphere.

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Post by english warrior Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:51 pm

View- England won a hard game away from home with a fairly new and untried team, why can't you just acknowledge this fact and say well done?

As for your claim that Wales will not lose any sleep over these 2, well Hubris, pride and hot air all come before a fall and doubly so for Wales, who will i truly believe will achieve their traditional average of 4th place this 6 nations.

So B.S. aside England won, and Wales haven't done Diddly squat. Can't wait for tomorrow, when the Welsh side face reality!! abd so do their fans!!

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Post by eirebilly Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:52 pm

I have a V2 stalker wahooo Very Happy

Scotland really do need a decent attacking coach to instil some confidence and some backing up.

I was impressed with Hodgson today and his crossfield kick nearly got the try if it wasnt for an amazing tackle on Strettle from Denton.
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Post by mystiroakey Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:52 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Your right i expect nothing but the same from Wales and Ireland, poor rugby that could only dream of the skill and power of the Southern Hemisphere.

make your mind up blimey

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Post by gowales Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:55 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Seen Sunday afternoon pub teams exploit space and handle better than Scotland, it was awful.
Part of me died watching that.
England well all this talk of rejuvenated expansive rugby for the last couple of weeks! young fresh squad! it was shocking.

It was like watching two drunk tramps fighting over a bag of chips and calling it a boxing match.

France Ireland Wales and Italy will not lose any sleep over these two.

Lets not get to ahead of ourselves shall we. For all you know we could be back to the Wales of old tomorrow. And remember we didn't look very good against Scotland either last year.

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Post by gelodge Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:57 pm

He possibly would have done better with more time, but in the 25mins Laidlaw was on the pitch Scotland conceded 3 points and scored 0. Not much better than them scoring 6 points and conceding 10 when Parks was on. You might be better of with Weir.

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Post by Guest Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:58 pm

english warrior wrote:View- England won a hard game away from home with a fairly new and untried team, why can't you just acknowledge this fact and say well done?

As for your claim that Wales will not lose any sleep over these 2, well Hubris, pride and hot air all come before a fall and doubly so for Wales, who will i truly believe will achieve their traditional average of 4th place this 6 nations.

So B.S. aside England won, and Wales haven't done Diddly squat. Can't wait for tomorrow, when the Welsh side face reality!! abd so do their fans!!
oh goodness me!!! yep thats it "hard fought" "tough place to go" "new team" "raw" blah de effing blah!!
It was god awful sheite you can't dress it up any other way. Italy to win next week.

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Post by Guest Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:59 pm

view, this win has really got to you hasn't it?

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Post by mystiroakey Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:00 pm

would italy beating england give you more pleasure than your team winning a grandslam?

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:00 pm

I actually thought Laidlaw was a bit of a mixed bag. Sure there was that lovely chip which could have led to a try, but there were also a few "headless ckicken" moments where he seemed completely unsure of what to do. Trouble is, he needs to be given the chance to show what he can do from the start, rather than turning a game around.

Also, AR's changes are way too formulaic for my liking, but then again, that seems to be the way of most coaches nowadays...

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Post by Guest Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:01 pm

Wales will more than likely lose tomorrow and go back to the average craap selves, but at least i won't reel out the one liner excuses.


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Post by Guest Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:01 pm

England Grand Slammers

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:02 pm

on a side-note, it's wonderful to see posters who confidently predicted a Scotland win before the game to be now dismissing it as a load of rubbish and making Italy favourites for next week.

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Post by mystiroakey Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:03 pm

yep it cracks me up lol.

no grace whatsoever

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Post by Guest Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:03 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:on a side-note, it's wonderful to see posters who confidently predicted a Scotland win before the game to be now dismissing it as a load of rubbish and making Italy favourites for next week.
Quite.

It's like some folk don't like to see England win Headscratch

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Post by Dave. Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:03 pm

They lost because England scored more points.

Scotland had loads of turnovers!


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Post by mystiroakey Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:04 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Wales will more than likely lose tomorrow and go back to the average craap selves, but at least i won't reel out the one liner excuses.


we dont need to make excuses- we won .

lol you really are lost in some mad world arnt you?

its you andf your compatriates making excuses for scotlands loss

infact the only scottish poster that i have noticed on here- said the best time won and congrats!

they dont want your mad ramblings


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Post by gowales Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:05 pm

Some of my fellow countrymen really take their hate for England too far. Im sometimes embarrassed as a Welshman on rugby forums.


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Post by english warrior Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:07 pm

View- Your response has truly shocked me, and also made me feel incredibly happy, to think that an England win has had this effect on you. Well all i can say is if you don't like it, then we've got to be on the right track !! eeeeh haaa!!


A wins a win as we say, while you have the Welsh way, which is to lose loads of games and declare that you play the Welsh way. Ha,ha,ha, i hope thats a comfort after tomorrow!! But i doubt it!! Laugh

english warrior

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Why did Scotland lose at Murrayfield? Post mortem. Empty Re: Why did Scotland lose at Murrayfield? Post mortem.

Post by ultra Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:10 pm

who ever this view to the gym chap is, should obviously stay in the gym.....bench press and bicep curls, then the girls will love you, honest! England were the better team. The unholy 'breakdown' wasn't anywhere near as bad as folks make out. The golden haired second row is fantastic. England were better..........

ultra

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Location : The land of whippets and leek shows

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