Ireland post mortem

First topic message reminder :

Just back from the game.

Firstly - barnes messed up big time for the last penalty. Has to be lifting involved in a tip tackle which there wasn't.

Secondly- Wales probably had a few calls go against them so overall I feel things evened themselves out.

Thirdly- I though Wales were much the better team and were value for a 5-10 point win in my book.

None of which were what I wanted to talk through. I am posting in a reactionary mood so forgive me if I seem too emotional but to me I think the time has come for a change. We have been described as a team in a 'steady transition', not being too wayward with caps and building the next side gradually. Is there a point to building the next side gradually if the present side isn't doing the business though?

I thought today that the difference in Wales approach was stark in the 2nd half. Roberts had got no joy throughout so they switched the attack to north with devastating effect. I have seen no semblance of game plan, no hint of playing what's in front of you or anything to suggest Ireland have remotely half the nous that Wales have.

The players seem inhibited and for me only rob Kearney comes out of the game with any sense of credit (maybe Rory best too). To my mind we are relying on brute force and ignorance and when that doesn't work we have no plan B. I can't recall seeing tommy Bowe having a poorer game. I think it is telling that the two progressive subs weren't used ( as far as I could see). I think the question needs asked that what can Ton McGahan, Joe Schmidt and Brian McLaughlin get out of these guys at provincial level that we aren't seeing at international level.

for me a telling situation was ferris taking a poor up and under in the 2nd half. For ulster he would build up a head of steam and plough into/through the first defender. Today he passed. There is something seriously wrong in the international set up IMO.

For my welsh counterparts again this is more an Irish bitching session and I don't wish to detract from what was a deserved victory. Best of luck and here's to a GS cider against France. To my Irish friends I apologise if I am being overly harsh or emotional but that result has ruined my week and I am gutted and depressed.

Reddan wouldn't be able for Phillips' physicality. Murray put in an awful lot of tackles today. All Reddan could have done is to ship it out to Sexton who would ship it out to D'Arcy or McFadden for the Welsh back row to flatten them. Don't forget, Wales had most of the possession.

I thought Murray was excellent - bar the one bad box kick.

Standup - I see you think Kearney was good. He was great fielding the ball, but his defence was very poor.

Think the review of the Irish after this game has been disproportionally harsh. We should have beaten what is an excellent Welsh team, we didnt because sometimes (2 years in a row) sport isnt fair, but I think the result has coloured peoples view of the performances, which, 1 or 2 players aside,(cough, darcy, cough) i felt were excellent at times.

I promice you if halfpenny had missed that kicked everyone on here would be happy with the game and personal performances, he kicked it, we lost, so obviously people believe we played poorly. Dont let the result cloud the reality of what was an excellent game by 2 excellent teams.

logie28 wrote:Think the review of the Irish after this game has been disproportionally harsh. We should have beaten what is an excellent Welsh team, we didnt because sometimes (2 years in a row) sport isnt fair, but I think the result has coloured peoples view of the performances, which, 1 or 2 players aside,(cough, darcy, cough) i felt were excellent at times.

I promice you if halfpenny had missed that kicked everyone on here would be happy with the game and personal performances, he kicked it, we lost, so obviously people believe we played poorly. Dont let the result cloud the reality of what was an excellent game by 2 excellent teams.

I for one wouldn't have been happy and I doubt few else would either.

On the few occasions Ireland got a head of steam up they were pretty good and looked like they could close this game out. But there was no consistancy. There was very little phase play from Ireland, the offloading game was just not there. I can't believe it's lack of skill or confidence there just seemed a sense of lethargy and ambivalence.

Srum and lineouts were fine. Guilty of not commiting players or being aggressive enough at the breakdown although this evened out a little in 2nd half (wonder why??!).

Whats happened our defense, will any available center partnership matter at this stage. France under St. Andre will prepare well for this one and be very optimistic and confident I have a feeling they'll cruise it and I can't see what we can change in 6 days

Sin

I thought Kearney and Best were our best players and probably the only ones who were positive for me. Everyone elsenwas a negative. Murray just the man for Phillips has been bested by him twice. I have no issue persevering with him and sexton as that seems to be the future but neither if them were good.

Logos

We were abject. It would have been a steal had we won that game. There is absolutely no semblance of a game plan in attack and our defence seems to have suffered with kiss performing a double role. It was an abject showing

'Our midfield was awful
Our backrow is unbalanced and was outplayed again.'

Spot on DOD.
I think POM or Henry must start.

D'Arcy and DOC to the rugby retirement home
Bowe and one of the backrow droped - to generally give players a well needed kick up the backside

We have other problems lurking though which worry me:

Ross has been poor this year - he was against the weakest LH he is likely to play this year and wasn't great
Murray is still green and has a lot to learn
Sexton seems out of sorts and confused about Kidneys tactics
We have no 12 of the required standard on the immediate horizon
Kidney tactics are a joke

It's the gameplan - not the players.

The gameplan - not the players.

The problem with us, and the media, and the coaches themselves is that they are trying to do rush maths on the problem and it invariably gets sucked back into the detail of O'Brien isn't effective, Murray is again (Ireland's recurring nightmare!!!) too slow deciding who and where the ball goes to, McFadden isn't good enough, Bowe is criminally sloppy in his ball handling (he is and it's a recurring theme I'm not pleased with)....

but none of the detail is the answer to the simple problem.

1 + 1 = No clear gameplan.

We don't have one good one, nevermind a back-up version two, and highly elusive, Plan B. We even lost the instinct and the ability to 'close out' a hard fought for win. Someone is responsible for all of that and it isn't the players.

SecretFly wrote:It's the gameplan - not the players.

The gameplan - not the players.

The problem with us, and the media, and the coaches themselves is that they are trying to do rush maths on the problem and it invariably gets sucked back into the detail of O'Brien isn't effective, Murray is again (Ireland's recurring nightmare!!!) too slow deciding who and where the ball goes to, McFadden isn't good enough, Bowe is criminally sloppy in his ball handling (he is and it's a recurring theme I'm not pleased with)....

but none of the detail is the answer to the simple problem.

1 + 1 = No clear gameplan.

We don't have one good one, nevermind a back-up version two, and highly elusive, Plan B. We even lost the instinct and the ability to 'close out' a hard fought for win. Someone is responsible for all of that and it isn't the players.

Its the gameplan and the players. Its also the execution. A gap opened up for Ferris in the Wales 22 and what does he do? Passes to O'Connell..the slowest man on the pitch. Bowe fumbled the ball into touch..concedes the lineout and Wales score.

sh*t happens. Its the small margins. Wales had the lions share of posession a territory so were always likely to win.

I think we are being overly negative and loseing perspective. We all agreed on the selection before the game. McFadden was the only option at 13 and did better than I expected. He created both our tries and the pass to Bowe for the second was sublime after Sexton went the wrong way from the ruck.

O'Callaghan had his best game in years. D'arcy defended well and worked overtime at the rucks. Bowe had a poor game but scored one and created one.

We should have used the rolling maul more and not kicked the ball away so much but overall I disagree that it was a poor performance.

The bottom line is that these guys are not the same players at international level than they are at provincial. I don't mean they aren't good enough. I mean they are hesitant, indecisive and not sure what they should be doing.

I say again the ferris example when he fielded the high (between our 22 and 10m line). For ulster he puts the head down, fixes a man, makes 10-20 yards and a few more after the tackle. He passed. I couldn't believe it.

I'm nit disrespecting the welsh guys when I say that at provincial level we have had their number recently. I know we have NIQs but Leinster are perhaps the least reliant team in Europe in this regard and they sit on top of the Pro12 and also have a home HEC QF.

Something is severly lacking with the international setup

Quote from Kidney

"Structurally, we are okay," he said.


In a word....Plank

Standulstermen wrote: I say again the ferris example when he fielded the high (between our 22 and 10m line). For ulster he puts the head down, fixes a man, makes 10-20 yards and a few more after the tackle. He passed. I couldn't believe it.

Thats because he has no faith in the way Ireland play.

You could see in Sexton's face - he was a confused young man

Ferris passed a lot so I think it was a deliberate tactic to not use Ferris and SOB as the primary carriers. Ferris in particular was reluctant to take contact whereas Heaslip carried a lot.

On that occaision Ferris should have pinned his ears back.

Of course the backrow had to look after the midfield. McFadden and Darcy made 26 tackles between them as it is, pretty clear that they were identified as a weakness, pretty obvious that the backrow will look to shore up any perceived weakness in our defense.

Mick

We have given out for years about Wallace babysitting ROG. If you need babysat defensively then you shouldnt be in the team. If you can't make your first up tackles then go away and work on it and come back.

roddersm wrote:Ferris passed a lot so I think it was a deliberate tactic to not use Ferris and SOB as the primary carriers. Ferris in particular was reluctant to take contact whereas Heaslip carried a lot.

On that occaision Ferris should have pinned his ears back.

So he passes it to a back who will hoof it back. It isn't about not being the primary carriers it is about playing what's in front of you. We aren't doing it. This was a criticism of England post 2003 were they were essentially called robots and we are going down that very same road.

roddersm wrote:
Its the gameplan and the players. Its also the execution. A gap opened up for Ferris in the Wales 22 and what does he do? Passes to O'Connell..the slowest man on the pitch. Bowe fumbled the ball into touch..concedes the lineout and Wales score.

sh*t happens. Its the small margins. Wales had the lions share of posession a territory so were always likely to win.

Why did Ferris pass it to Paul? Because in training, Paul was making headway... against Irish cannon fodder. Why did Sexton and others endlessly kick it back to the Welsh? Didn't we all settle on the idea a long time ago that you don't kick ball back to sides with the width and pace that Wales have? So who told him to do it this time again? Who told him to play it that way? It certainly isn't his instinct. So if Wales had possession, we know who was givng them a good deal of it.

We attack in................... Well, how do we attack? It certainly has no structure. It's opportunistic at best, 'having a go' at the worst. These are professional players that know what it takes to effectively attack. We don't do it. We don't have a collective decision to initiate an attacking period. Someone just gets a ball and tries to run with it. No support, no options - options are not there because fast and always present options are not being coached in this 'version' of Rugby Ireland at present play. We have had it proven to us that Gaffney was not the weak link because all I saw was a slightly more 'involved' version of how we tried to play Wales in New Zealand. The version we play does not produce the openings that Heaslip, O'Brien and Ferris or Healy thrive on. They are not, as some here seem to think they are marketted as, not simple ramming tools. They perform best when the gameplan creates something for them to work with - ie, space so that they can get up to speed and then use their bulk to create more - space; or a gameplan that at least cuts down the amount of bodies they are asked to trawl through from the off. They can not work miracles and scythe through five or six big Welshmen from the off. That's what our gameplan (such as it is, again) requires them to attempt, over and over again. It's a brickwall theory from brickwall brains (ie stubborn).

Anyway, we'll all have our views on what transpired and mine is no more valid than someone else's. But in my book, Kidney and his coaches have lost the moral authority to walk into that changing room and lay down the law on what went wrong and who might have been to blame. The players know in their heart who is to blame - and they're looking at them (the coaches)

For me, what crystallises the problems Ireland are having was Sexton's long-range penalty in our own half.

We had just scored a try. We had some momentum. We had a lineout that was running very well, with nary a miscall or a wayward dart for Bestie all game. Bradley Davis was still in the bin.

Going for an unlikely penalty rather than a lineout further in demonstrates perfectly the issue. A lack of faith, and intensity that waxes and wanes far too much. We score a try, we sit on our hands and wait for Wales' next move.

I wonder if Les Kiss was stretched too thin, because that was the poorest Irish defensive performance I've seen in a while. It took three men not to stop George North, but to impede him a bit, so that he scored a second later than if he had run in unopposed.

All this stuff about a traditional 7 is a distraction from the real issues. We're obssessed with our backrow. Forget about them. They weren't great, but let's focus on the poor tactics, poor leadership, and poor midfield. That's what we need to address.

Standulstermen wrote:Mick

We have given out for years about Wallace babysitting ROG. If you need babysat defensively then you shouldnt be in the team. If you can't make your first up tackles then go away and work on it and come back.

Fair enough Stand, i was probably wrong the stats don't show where tackles were made so it was a bit stupid of me in the first place. Still midfeild missed 3 out of 26 tackles, so there's nothing to show we couldn't make our first up tackles, apart from one or two exceptions.

I actually think we are undercoached, not over coached.

There are no planned moves of the set piece anymore. Everything is multphase and off the cuff. The problem is if you are not getting go forward then everything is static and predictable. You run the risk of being turned over so are forced to kick the ball away.

Shaggy discussed this in a recent article. Kidney is big into the multiphase play but every so often the structures break down....like when you create an overlap and have a prop or 2nd row on the wing.

Wales scored a cracking try off the lineout and nearly scored another because they had identified defensive weaknesses.

We need to bring some creative set plays back into our armoury but we are doing good things.

Ireland tried replying on the power of Ferris Heaslip O'Brien and O'Connell at times to break through the Welsh defence but the Welsh were physically superior on the day.

At times Ireland looked disorganised and unsure of themselves and Wales were physically and mentally superior on the day

Don Alfonso wrote: We score a try, we sit on our hands and wait for Wales' next move.
.

Correct. We keep giving the side that has just been stung and easy-out option of a breather space and time to reorganise. No continuous battleplan attack game to drive home even the dreaded 'purple patch' advantage. If you have a purple patch, and it comes to most sides even if having a bad game - then use it. But no, Ireland lets the foot off the gas and waits patiently to defend again. We are a defensive (poorly at this stage) side that tries to pick off a try or two. Attack is not only the best defence but also the easiest. I do wish our coaches understood that.

For me the game was lost when Sexton tried that kick from the halfway line. Sexton not kicking well and Wales a man in the bin I was screaming for us to kick it into the corner and drive our advantage home! We lack the ruthlessness that set our provinces apart. Last 10 minutes we just looked scared, never looked like that with BOD! So disappointing

Ireland have never used Ferris as a ball carrier - no idea why

I see Farrell agrees with me

" When you are faced with a backline carrying as much power and menace as Wales', it is essential that you close down their time on the ball, but Ireland's line-speed was non-existent and there were no shooters to get in Welsh faces."

This is just my take on things from firstly an individual perspective, secondly coaching and thirdly collective:

Healy was ok in the scrum (Ross had more trouble) and was pretty good in defence (however, didn't affect too many turnovers. Main issue was Healy wasn't used in the wider channels where he can be very effective.

Best was one of our better players. Slowed a lot of ball down and made a lot of tackles. His throwing was pretty good too.

Ross was poor, lent very little in the loose, defended averagely but got the worse end in the scrums, our tighthead side was rarely up leaving Heaslip with a tougher job at the base. For a guy who is supposed to hit rucks, he won us very little quick ball.

O'Connell was good without being anything more. Made a few lineout steals. Got in the way of the ball (I don't think he should touch it in attack), defended well enough but wasn't a menace in terms of affecting turnovers

O'Callaghan defended admirably and put in a good stint in that department but offered little else I thought. Didn't win us much quick ball at the breakdown.

Ferris was ok but didn't seem his aggressive self. Didn't carry enough in the wide 12-13 channell like he does for Ulster and wasn't smashing through rucks either. Defended the midfield well enough.

O'Brien again wasn't running far enough away from the ruck, conceeded a few silly penalties although he did slow up some of their ball. Didn't really speed up ours. Defended well but didn't carry anywhere near enough.

Heaslip was our best player IMO. He carried through traffic well, he gave and collected offloads. Won a lineout steal. Defended well enough. Was our best player but still not worth more than 7/10.

Murray looked both good and bad IMO. There were times in the 2nd half where he started attacking the fringes drawing men then releasing others coming on to the ball. At the same time his decision making was a bit slow at times.

Sexton looked perplexed by the game plan but at the same time he wasn't great. He kicked from hand poorly at times but also had a lot to do with our good attack play (infrequent as it was). Goal kicked well enough and his defense was excellent. Needs to have guys running with him to attack in the aggressive, open Leinster style.

Trimble was ok, could have come infield and won us some yards with his size and the Welsh may not have expected to have had to defend him. Defended well enough but didn't really offer anything in attack.

Darcy was better than I thought he would be but still not good. He showed good hands at times. He kept Roberts relatively quiet (Ferris+Sob helped here). He however offered very little going forward. Was at fault when North stepped past him and into McFadden's channel.

McFadden was ok. He got on the outside of the defence a few times and made metres off Murray a few times too. He looked bad being hammered by North for Davies' try but he was offbalance (as he was marking Davies til Darcy let North by). His defence was ok (again Ferris+Sob helped).

Bowe was very poor I thought. Poor handling, and very poor defence on more than one occassion. Set up and scored a try but offered very little else and killed some of our attacking moves.

Kearney was the best back but this is mainly down to his fielding of the ball more than anything else. He didn't show the improvement in his counter attacking play that he has made at Leinster.

Court was annonymous I felt when he came on.
Ryan looked very good and a more positive player.
Reddan+Rog weren't on long enough I felt.

Coaching:
I feel that DK got the tactics wrong again and has turned some very dangerous players provincially into quite timid ones. My main concern was that the aggression level was non existent. He didn't fire up the players at all and it should have been easy too.
There was little sembalance of a game plan and what little there was, was very archaic. We relied on brute force in attack against a team that our on average bigger than we are. I thought some of the subsititions were illtimed (halfbacks) and perhaps POM and Cronin should have come on to try and attack the game more.
When we weren't getting quick ball in the first half we didn't adapt and add more men to the breakdown to speed the game up when we had the ball.

Overall:
A very worrying display on most fronts but I'd mainly lay the blame with the coaching staff. We were outgunned and didn't try to change the game to something that would suit us.

Our attack was very poor, direct, no dummy runners, no depth, easily read and lacking team cohesion
Our aggression levels were very low
Our work at the breakdown was poor
Our players (playing very well for province) did not play well overall

We looked clueless as to what we wanted and had to do.

Pete I might argue about a few details but that is a pretty good summary

Standulstermen wrote:Sin

I thought Kearney and Best were our best players and probably the only ones who were positive for me. Everyone elsenwas a negative. Murray just the man for Phillips has been bested by him twice. I have no issue persevering with him and sexton as that seems to be the future but neither if them were good.

Not a huge amount of shame being bested by Phillips who is probably one of the best scrumhalfs around at the moment. Phillips would have destroyed Reddan and Ireland with the amount of turnovers he would have won. Murray was one of our top tacklers yesterday as well.

Kearney was showy, but for a guy who commits so well to the high ball (really brave), his tackling is a bit weak. Best had a great game yesterday. Most the rest were meh.

A spear tackle on a 6'7" 18+ stone lock/backrower just shows how physical the Welsh were - and that was at the later stages of the match.

Thanks Geoff but wish it was a more positive one.

I have actually started getting down about watching Ireland I get so excited then disappointed, even the win against Australia wasn't the kinda way I want us to play, nearly losing to Italy last year and so on. I wish we played the way we played against england in the 6N.

I think we need a Southern Hemisphere coach (and possibly new southern hemisphere coaching staff)

Also agree that I don't think the "lack of a real 7" made much difference or balance of a backrow. SOB has made a huge change into becoming something of a 7. He plays well there for Leinster

That may be a bit dramatic, I'd keep Smal and Kiss but I guess that would be up to the new coach.

I seriously think all this talk of our "unbalanced" backrow is ridiculous. You can throw in the NZ backrow and that would not fix anything. FACT. With the gameplan we are currently playing, and with the centres we have now, no backrow combination is going to look good. SOB has been heavily criticised despite being the top tackler, saving our skin many times in fact. Our centres could not handle the physicality, and were embarrassingly weak. It isn't rocket science as to why SOB and Ferris are playing so differently for their country. Last time they were our only form of attack. This time they were our only defence. They were covering the centres the entire game.

Sin é wrote:

Not a huge amount of shame being bested by Phillips who is probably one of the best scrumhalfs around at the moment. Phillips would have destroyed Reddan and Ireland with the amount of turnovers he would have won. Murray was one of our top tacklers yesterday as well.

Kearney was showy, but for a guy who commits so well to the high ball (really brave), his tackling is a bit weak. Best had a great game yesterday. Most the rest were meh.

A spear tackle on a 6'7" 18+ stone lock/backrower just shows how physical the Welsh were - and that was at the later stages of the match.

Sin, Ryan isn't that big. He is 6'6" and just about 17 stone.

Rory is on a roll this morning.

So are we all currently running to our pre-assigned panic stations? Ireland where shoite, aside for the two tries we scored. The overall performance was nowhere near good enough to beat a welsh side who looked far more up for the game than we did (worrying). Even when Halfpenny missed that conversion we where still in the lead we had the territory, and yet we sat back and let the welsh build up the momentum and go the length of the pitch in under two minutes. Debate can rage about whether Ferris conceeded a penalty (though I notice his captain was kind enough to single him out), but the simple fact remains Wales deserved to win that match by far more than they did. Bar a few individual performances I see no positives to take from that game.

For a team that has prided itself on defense in recent years we shipped 3 tries at home. That doesn't bode well for next week. Ah the French what an enigma. People can say they where average against Italy, the simple fact is they did what they had to do, they where always going to win that game.

So Declan, time to earn your money. Changes need to made to this settled side. A few of us repeated this brilliant analogy last night in some form; 'the sum of Ireland's individual players is far inferior to what it should be'. This needs to change if we are to have any hope for blind optimism on Friday night.

Realistically can anyone see Declan getting the sack. An improved performance next week and a narrow loss will be enough to see him keep his job. How very disappointing.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Thanks Geoff but wish it was a more positive one.

I have actually started getting down about watching Ireland I get so excited then disappointed, even the win against Australia wasn't the kinda way I want us to play, nearly losing to Italy last year and so on. I wish we played the way we played against england in the 6N.

I think we need a Southern Hemisphere coach (and possibly new southern hemisphere coaching staff)

Also agree that I don't think the "lack of a real 7" made much difference or balance of a backrow. SOB has made a huge change into becoming something of a 7. He plays well there for Leinster

Explain to me then why Ireland played the way they did against England and haven't replicated it (Aus was good, but that was purely playing defensively and taking your chances when you got them).

Does Kidney tell them not to play like that again.

And Sean O'Brien is no David Wallace.

What I'd do for the French game - start the same team, but after 50 mins, bring on O'Gara and take off D'Arcy, moving Sexton to 12. I think this role would suit him better. Ireland have two playermakers then and lose nothing on defence.

Long term I think Ireland's midfield should be Luke Fitz & Earls. Both have pace and Luke has excellent defence and a good offload.

Only good thing to come out of this game is that maybe now people will give Earls a chance to make the 13 jersey his own.

D'Arcy and McFadden just didnt work as a centre pairing in my eyes. Completely muscled out (no shame in that really as the Welsh pair are very physical) and looked bereft of ideas in attack.

D'Arcy as much as i hate to say this, should not start for Ireland. He has not been good in a green shirt (on a consistent basis) for over two years.

Sin SOB did the job Wallace has been doing for years, except it was even more difficult. SOB made the most tackles on some of the biggest men in rugby, and that was clearly the role he was assigned to. On top of that he slowed down the opposition ball and made a few carries. He didn't show his usual smartness at the breakdown but like I said he had a different role to perform. Ferris too, covering BOTH centres. We had two crap defenders in midfield.

We ALL knew before the game that the centres was our biggest weakness and where we were going to be targeted, so why is everyone surprised? SOB and Ferris were clearly told to cover them, I think that is pretty obvious and you could see that if you watch the game. Though people are still going on about "oh we need natural 7s, everyone else has them". Watch the game again people, Richie McCaw wasn't going to make a difference in that game.

Wallace and Earls to start next game, we have nothing to lose with that and might actually cause distress to the opposition for a change.

SecretFly wrote:It's the gameplan - not the players.

The gameplan - not the players.

The problem with us, and the media, and the coaches themselves is that they are trying to do rush maths on the problem and it invariably gets sucked back into the detail of O'Brien isn't effective, Murray is again (Ireland's recurring nightmare!!!) too slow deciding who and where the ball goes to, McFadden isn't good enough, Bowe is criminally sloppy in his ball handling (he is and it's a recurring theme I'm not pleased with)....

but none of the detail is the answer to the simple problem.

1 + 1 = No clear gameplan.

We don't have one good one, nevermind a back-up version two, and highly elusive, Plan B. We even lost the instinct and the ability to 'close out' a hard fought for win. Someone is responsible for all of that and it isn't the players.

Exactly. Chopping and changing individual players & positions wont solve this. Not if they are put into the same Twilight Zone, that is Kidneys abysmal game plan. I dont see one. Havent seen one in 3 years since we started trying to play running-rugby. I dispare and worse still, I actually believe we are not near as good as we perceive. Wales were better all over the park - individually. And as a team. Its not all Kidney's fault, but most of it is. He picks them and coaches them.

I think Kidney has free reign now, by default, to bring in some new blood to the 22. Nothing drastic, just 1 or 2. Then, this 6-N wont be a complete write-off, if we discover 1 or 2 new internationals and workable combinations to suit a cohesive game-plan. I am looking at it from a completely different point of view to the rest. Throwing old players like Paddy Wallace into the mix now, would be the worst thing to do. France are going to hammer us no matter what we do. We can take Scotland and Italy at home using a few new players. POM, for one - at 7. So, lets use it wisely instead of plugging holes with players who wont be around next year.

Its called forward-planning and squad development, Deccie.

I have lost interest in this team under him. He won't change. His position has been on thin-ice for a year now and yet, he still persists with his conservative non thought-process and lives in a bubble. Best we can hope for is that he leaves in Summer, after we lose the NZ series 3-0. Im starting a virtual Novena that this happens.

Carry on switching players round to your heart's content (its good fun) and see if it miraculously cures our ills. I can save you all the time. It wont.

I wish Fitz and Cave werent injured...

Our defense was rather poor, but you also have to admit we had no potency in attack either. Nothing was created in the backline. Paddy Wallace might be what we need. And Earls hopefully.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Not a huge amount of shame being bested by Phillips who is probably one of the best scrumhalfs around at the moment. Phillips would have destroyed Reddan and Ireland with the amount of turnovers he would have won. Murray was one of our top tacklers yesterday as well.

Kearney was showy, but for a guy who commits so well to the high ball (really brave), his tackling is a bit weak. Best had a great game yesterday. Most the rest were meh.

A spear tackle on a 6'7" 18+ stone lock/backrower just shows how physical the Welsh were - and that was at the later stages of the match.

Sin, Ryan isn't that big. He is 6'6" and just about 17 stone.

OK Rory I'm a stone and an inch out - but can you name any forward who has been spear tackled like that? It was worse than the Warburton on a back.

Gibson haven't you been one of the main advocates of the natural 7 for Ireland club? I consider that chopping and changing, and throwing in a player who is going to make absolutely no difference whatsoever. Especially since we already have the best 7 in Ireland starting for us (SOB).

Ryan is relatively light for a second row Sin. And it isn't exactly that hard to spear tackle someone like that if you have the intent.. these are supposed to be men who can bench press and squat very high numbers. I think the reason you don't see it is because most people who do that get sent off and cited and are not that stupid. Davies is an idiot though.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin SOB did the job Wallace has been doing for years, except it was even more difficult. SOB made the most tackles on some of the biggest men in rugby, and that was clearly the role he was assigned to. On top of that he slowed down the opposition ball and made a few carries. He didn't show his usual smartness at the breakdown but like I said he had a different role to perform. Ferris too, covering BOTH centres. We had two crap defenders in midfield.

We ALL knew before the game that the centres was our biggest weakness and where we were going to be targeted, so why is everyone surprised? SOB and Ferris were clearly told to cover them, I think that is pretty obvious and you could see that if you watch the game. Though people are still going on about "oh we need natural 7s, everyone else has them". Watch the game again people, Richie McCaw wasn't going to make a difference in that game.

Wallace and Earls to start next game, we have nothing to lose with that and might actually cause distress to the opposition for a change.

Wallace is a smarter player than SOB and he certainly doesn't give away anything like the number of penalties that SOB does. Wally always managed one or two big plays as well as looking after ROG. He has a decent try scoring record for Ireland. Absolutely lethal 5 metres from the line.

Wallace's defence isn't good enough inside Earls, brave and all as he is.

Yeah Earls is the best defender in the world and everyone else is rubbish at it. Wallace never gives away a penalty and everyone else does. Gotcha.

Sin we won that game because we went at it with passion and a willingness to play open expansive rugby. everyone bought into it that day.

On other days some don't and they slow the ball up or take contact instead of distributing. I'm finding it hard to put into words I must admit. The entire team went out to play attacking running rugby though.

I agree with Rory entirely re: SOB.

Our midfield were poor but at the same time both made the passes which made the breaks for our tries. They were too weak in defence though without doubt not so much missing tackles (they made loads) but losing yards in the tackle getting dragged backwards. They also created no go forward ball.

NB: McFadden has the strongest upper body in the Leinster backs according to there conditioning staff for him to be outmuscled shows how big the Welsh guys are. Not saying upperbody strength is everything in defence but it is a part.

I also agree with Gibbo that chopping and changing players will get us nowhere (save for Ryan--------->DOC) it is the approach and the skill level, the intent and the plan that are missing.

Sin é wrote:Wallace's defence isn't good enough inside Earls, brave and all as he is.

It seemed decent enough inside Ian Whitten against Rougerie and Fofana

Well apparently leg strength/power is the most important thing when it comes to making a tackle, so that would make sense about McFadden I think. North just barrelled through him.

Also noticed with Murray, he seems to be getting a bit of a short fuse. Not sure if this is just the usual scrum half attitude or if it will develop into something more.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Gibson haven't you been one of the main advocates of the natural 7 for Ireland club? I consider that chopping and changing, and throwing in a player who is going to make absolutely no difference whatsoever. Especially since we already have the best 7 in Ireland starting for us (SOB).

Do you mean the same SOB who has been handed his arse at 7, 3 times in-a-row by Warburton. That one? The only reason we beat OZ at the RWC, was because Pocock was out. It was a false-dawn for our unbalanced backrow.

Anyway, I swore I wouldnt get involved in pointless counter-posts about individual players. It's tiring, repetitive and all bollox under this coach. The problem is at the Top. They are playing to his template for years now and it doesnt work. No matter WHO we play where. Do you understand that?

Any squad additions to be announced tomorrow?

Gibson wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Gibson haven't you been one of the main advocates of the natural 7 for Ireland club? I consider that chopping and changing, and throwing in a player who is going to make absolutely no difference whatsoever. Especially since we already have the best 7 in Ireland starting for us (SOB).

Do you mean the same SOB who has been handed his arse at 7, 3 times in-a-row by Warburton. That one? The only reason we beat OZ at the RWC, was because Pocock was out. It was a false-dawn for our unbalanced backrow.

Anyway, I swore I wouldnt get involved in pointless counter-posts about individual players. It's tiring, repetitive and all bollox under this coach. The problem is at the Top. Not on the field. Do you understand that?

How has he got his ass handed to him though? He had a role and he performed it - he made the most tackles on the field and saved us a lot today. He slowed down opposition ball and made turnovers. Not as many as he has been making for Leinster, but like I said that wasn't his primary duty and that comes down to coaching. France outplayed the NZ backrow without a proper 7, yet again I have to keep pointing that out but everyone seems to ignore that. France share the breakdown role between all the players and it works. We should be doing the same. Do you think throwing in Henry/POM is going to suddenly make the breakdown secure? No, because that doesn't come down to who is playing 7, it is a basic everyone should know. The forwards must present quick ball.

I totally agree with you about the coaching yes. That is why I am saying then that this nonsense about natural 7s that everyone is obsessing about isn't going to solve anything at all. SOB is doing fine at 7 and is a developing young player, his discipline needs work but apart from that I feel he is doing very well. But as long as our backrow have to keep covering the centres, they will never look good (except for making a massive number of tackles).

SOB is not our best 7 - for the simple reason he isn't a 7 !!!

Without Wallace we do not have a 7 in Irish rugby good enough to play International rugby.
What we should do is play the best Provincial level player available whoever that may be.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Thanks Geoff but wish it was a more positive one.

I have actually started getting down about watching Ireland I get so excited then disappointed, even the win against Australia wasn't the kinda way I want us to play, nearly losing to Italy last year and so on. I wish we played the way we played against england in the 6N.

I think we need a Southern Hemisphere coach (and possibly new southern hemisphere coaching staff)

Also agree that I don't think the "lack of a real 7" made much difference or balance of a backrow. SOB has made a huge change into becoming something of a 7. He plays well there for Leinster

Explain to me then why Ireland played the way they did against England and haven't replicated it (Aus was good, but that was purely playing defensively and taking your chances when you got them).

Does Kidney tell them not to play like that again.

And Sean O'Brien is no David Wallace.

What I'd do for the French game - start the same team, but after 50 mins, bring on O'Gara and take off D'Arcy, moving Sexton to 12. I think this role would suit him better. Ireland have two playermakers then and lose nothing on defence.

Long term I think Ireland's midfield should be Luke Fitz & Earls. Both have pace and Luke has excellent defence and a good offload.

Only good thing to come out of this game is that maybe now people will give Earls a chance to make the 13 jersey his own.

I would say not starting the same half backs since then would be a big issue. We do miss Wally I grant you. Murray isn't a quick distributor of the ball for ireland yet. He will hopefully get there soon though.