Let's make the Lions more fair

I think the 2009 Lions was a dramatic improvement on 2005, not just in performances, but in the way the whole thing was managed. Less players, more bonding, more fun, more honesty and picking the best players to play.

2005 was the biggest farce known in human history. A tour party of 971 players (965 English, 4 Irish, 1 Welsh and 1 Scot), 354 public relations and media staff and 34 guest motivational speakers.

I would like to see a mandatory proportional representation from each of the home nations. A squad of 32 to tour (8 from each home nation) and a squad of 12 that are on standby. There were so many injuries in 2009 that extra players will always be needed but I think it's best to keep the main squad as small as possible, but also to keep the standby players in the UK together and regularly training together at a base as most of them will end up being called out to Australia.

Even if Wales or England win the Six Nations this year or next year and Scotland come last, Scotland still have excellent individual players and could easily get a few of their guys into the test team. Right now I would love to see the likes of Denton, Gray, Jones and Hogg starting. They are on fire. It's just their team isn't clicking and the coach hasn't found the right balance.

I wouldn't expect an even mix in the test team as we would have to pick the best players in training and in the midweek matches, but at least everyone has a chance and it's fair game.

It would generate more interest and revenue if all of the home nations were represented equally. I can't imagine too many Scots watched the last few Lions tours. The biggest kick in the teeth was probably for us Welsh who were on fire after winning a slam and then became the test team minority to players who had performed well several years earlier.

I disagree 100%!

mankiaow wrote:I disagree 100%!

Why?

I am not saying we should not pick the best players to tour, but why not the best 8 players from each home nation? That would still generate big competition for places.

I like the idea, shakes it up a bit - Only thing is do we then do the proportional thing for the first XV/XVI

Then again, its likely to make the lesser players feel self-conscious and I don't think that's fair on England and Scotland's players

I just liked the fact that I'm the only voter so far.

It's not the worst idea. I just feel that once you start imposing quotas on anything you are asking for trouble. Going to the SH you have to send your best. That's the whole point. It's the best of B&I.

What you're suggesting would not be the best and the selection process would be a nightmare.

You say proportional but 8 each is an equal split. We should do it as a percentage of the number of registered players per union. IIRC England has 12 billion players registered at the last count so that would mean 99.999% England 0.001% all you other chaps. Fair?

If you try to add the politics of...

That Scot doesn't deserve to be hear when our better player is sat at home

You'll cause tension. If Jones is picked due to lack of performing Scot players and North left at home would that be right?

For example the Wales backline is going very well (ish) and Phillips, Roberts JD2 North and 1/2p will all tour (if right now) That leaves 3 pack players...

Warbs, Jenkins, Jones? What about Davies, the stand out 2nd row of the world cup, Charteris the top tackler, Lydiate? Rees toured before? Not to mention other backs that stand a chance, Hook etc...

Lets say Hamilton is chosen over POC, or Davies due to numbers problems, or Hogg gets picked over Kearney or 1/2p or Foden, for me it's a no goer!

The Lions is the best of the home nations, that might be 90% welsh Irish Scottish or English doesn't matter to me, it's the BEST!

I actually think though, at this precise time a Lions tour would be as equal as I've ever seen one!

Hideous!!!

The best players should tour. And by best, this should take in to account a players influence in a tour situation, a squad fit.

This idea would only devalue what is the biggest honour bestowed on home nation rugby players, that's how it should stay...

I have issues with the likes of Flutey, Barritt, Botha and Gatland going - That for me makes a complete mockery of the British & Irish Lions absolute mockery - B&I my axx

You mkight as well give it up. Rugby reasons - it would cause negativity and resentment amongst the squad. I'm all for the coach being given free reign to sort it all oout himself as he thinks fit. It was after all what we waited 20 yearsd for in Wales only to give that power to the coach when we had a Poopie team!

Ruby

What about Hartley? Stevens? Hape?

I could go on of course

Bowe, O'Driscoll, O'Connell?????

I voted 'no' because it's a daft idea. We're touring to win so we should take as strong a squad as possible.

A racially segregated quota system?

Surely not team in the modern era should be forced to content with such a political .... oh wait.

The Lions squad should be made up of the best players available. Having an equal number of players from each country smells of bit of an Idea that Nick Clegg would put forward.. far too PC..next they will be saying that there shouldn't be a winner in any of the tests and we don't keep score..

However I do think that there should not be any current British and Ireland international Coach leading the lions.. it all went wrong when Clive Woodward and Graham Henry did the job and the Lions didn't gel into a team... Warren Gatland taking the job would be wrong... I personally would like to see Connor O'shea to coach the Lions..an Irish man doing a great job at quins..

Conor Oshea is a great shout for the Lions

I completely disagree. In the act of 'fairness' this introduces the opposite, where a deserving player could be ignored for the benefit of another due to nationality. It can be turned over as discrimination in the name of equality. It's a nice idea, but wouldn't work, and allows a weaker touring squad as well as all the other issues. As someone above said, this is going to be a relatively evenly represented tour, so why worry about this political correctness diversity and equality nonsense and enjoy the best rugby we can put on.

Out of interest, how many Scottish fans were excited about the Lions tour 2009?

I watched a few games, because i love rugby, but I found it very hard to get behind the lions knowing that there was not a single Scottish player on the field. As a Scottish fan it did flip me off a bit. Ross Ford got subbed on at 37 minutes during the 3rd test, that was the extent of Scotland's contributions in the three main tests against SA.

Next year we'll hopefully have Gray and a few others starting, but the Lions to me has always felt more like the English, Irish and Welsh Lions.

It would be nice to have at least one player from each nation on the pitch every game, that wouldn't be hard to do.

bsando

Thats a better call!

I'd be excited about the 2013 tour though, Could be looking at Ford, Gray, Denton, and Blair there or there abouts.

Yeah you're right, I am quite confident that there'll be a few appearances for Scotland in 2013

RubyGuby wrote:I have issues with the likes of Flutey, Barritt, Botha and Gatland going - That for me makes a complete mockery of the British Lions, absolute mockery - British my axx

Love it..... never seen the British Lions play before, are they any good?

Surely a representative team from the 4 nations involved should mean that it is not a case of making up the numbers but each fullback looking to better each other to claim that position for the Tour.

They were till it all kicked off and the Irish wanted to be involved in the title!

thebluesmancometh wrote:They were till it all kicked off and the Irish wanted to be involved in the title!

Were they ever called the British Isles Lions, then on the first tour where the market men tried to start shortening it to the British Lions, Lenihan stepped in and reminded people of the political sensitivity.

And is Lions appropriate, none of the countries involved would have had many Lions running around in the wild. Surely the British & Irish Red Squirrels might be more apt.

Hah! England are so poor they want to change the lions selection rules!!!

I'm a Scotland fan and yes it is good to see Scottish players playing for the lions but quotas are bad, look at Wales ATM they have Jenkins, Rees, Jones, Warburton, Faletau, Phillips, Priestland, Roberts, Davies, North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny who, on current form, have a very good chance if going on the other hand you have England who have possibly Lawes, Robshaw, Tuilagi and Foden
I could see 8 Scotland players possibly being picked for 2013 but did they derserve more in 05, possibly Paterson, or 09, no not really it also takes something away for the players who won't know if they've been picked on merit or to make up the numbers.

Not a bad idea, and seeing as Scotland can provide 8 good players now then we would still have a strong squad, but don't quota the standbay players.

BTW, if Gatland is coach then I can't see only 8 welsh players going!

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:They were till it all kicked off and the Irish wanted to be involved in the title!

Were they ever called the British Isles Lions, then on the first tour where the market men tried to start shortening it to the British Lions, Lenihan stepped in and reminded people of the political sensitivity.

Could you put that in English please for the rest of us?

No way, i like the idea behind it but the Lions are there to win and that means picking the best players likely to do it.

2005 was a shambles because many players were picked based only on a RWC win and not because they were the players in form. That was simply poor selection in my eyes.

For me Hogg, Gray, Denton & Ford will probably go if playing well/not injured obviously.

Maybe even Jones.

So think Scotland will have at leat 4 in the squad.

The last succcessful lions tour was made up of a proportionate representation of each of the home unions with a sprinkling of unknown players.

Coincidence?

However, in saying that, I think the Lions are an outdated concept and it's more about making money these days.

I still love the Lions tours Tattie, long may it continue

Hear hear!

I'm sure that players, coaches and the thousands of touring fans would disagree with it being outdated.

I feel that the Lions tour and the World Cup are the two truly special events in world rugby.

The Lions are outdated as a contest because it is weighted so heavily in favour of the home side. A settled professional team should always beat a scratch team irrespective of its make-up.

The Lions however are very much on the button as a money machine, and so should always have more English in their ranks, followed by Welsh, Irish and Scots in that order.

Surely home advantage is the beauty of it since their inception?!?!
A group of players from four nations trying to compete against settled teams...again, since the Lions' inception. Not outdated, just brilliant!

The Great Aukster wrote:The Lions are outdated as a contest because it is weighted so heavily in favour of the home side. A settled professional team should always beat a scratch team irrespective of its make-up.
The Lions however are very much on the button as a money machine, and so should always have more English in their ranks, followed by Welsh, Irish and Scots in that order.

How does that make it outdated? Wasnt it then always outdated?

There's a massive difference between amateurs embarking on long tours of the past gelling together over several months, coming up against amateur home sides, and what happens now.

The best players in the selection season should go - end of.
I'm an England supporter and if the Lions were selected today there wouldnt be many RFU chaps representing and I am fine with that.

A starting 15 today for Lions would be -
Jones, Ford, Jenkins, POC, Grey, O'Brien, Heaslip, Warburton, Phillips, Sexton, North, Roberts, Tuilagi, Bowe, Halfpenny.

With plenty more non RFU guys on the bench -
Ferris, Priestland, Kearny, Trimble, JD2, Ryan Jones ect.

But, in another years time - Lawes, Morgan, Farrell, Foden, Ashton, Robshaw, may have upped their form and forced into consideration.

In a Lions year, its all about the Lions - I'm British when the Lions tour, and I want the best team to tour.

Ok, i personally dont see it as being outdated. Its become a tradition in rugby and does not happen that often. If it were such a huge money spinner then i feel that it would occur more often. I love it and long may it continue

sport isnt fair. it has winners and losers.

this sort of idea will kill off the lions for sure

Monkey...

The Lions and the WC are a long way below the 6N for me with regards to events involving drama, affordability, fans banter, build up, intensity and the odd bit of skill etc etc

Perhaps I am slightly tainted with the fact there's never any Scottish representation but then again, so would other countries if they were in the same boat.

2005 was the final straw for me - an absolute shambles.

Tattie,

The 6N is fantastic, and as you say, for a supporter this time if year is amazing.
I think that the Heineken Cup is up there too...
But I feel that the Lions and WC are special and the fact that they're so far apart just adds to them for me. Maybe unique is a better word.

propdavid_london wrote:The best players in the selection season should go - end of.
I'm an England supporter and if the Lions were selected today there wouldnt be many RFU chaps representing and I am fine with that.

A starting 15 today for Lions would be -
Jones, Ford, Jenkins, POC, Grey, O'Brien, Heaslip, Warburton, Phillips, Sexton, North, Roberts, Tuilagi, Bowe, Halfpenny.

With plenty more non RFU guys on the bench -
Ferris, Priestland, Kearny, Trimble, JD2, Ryan Jones ect.

But, in another years time - Lawes, Morgan, Farrell, Foden, Ashton, Robshaw, may have upped their form and forced into consideration.

In a Lions year, its all about the Lions - I'm British when the Lions tour, and I want the best team to tour.

I totally agree with you saying that a starting lineup today could be very different from a years time..but i think there will be even more players putting their name in the hat than you have highlighted there. Purely becuase there seems to be an abundance of real quality youngsters playing regularly for all the home nations.

Players like Denton, Hogg...and many others from a new look Scotland, Barritt, Wood, maybe the likes of Lindsay, George, Trinder etc from England are just a very few who could be "surprise" or non surprise selections. Add in the Welsh and Irish contingent, who themselves seem to have a surge in young talent....the Lions could be different to what we might expect.....and very strong....

Proportional representation? What a ridiculous suggestion. The Lions are there to win. Not make Scottish and English rugby fans happy.

Generally Lions coaches think it´s best to dominate a side with a particular country as there´s not much time for preparation and previous combinations with the national side can help gel the Lions squad quicker together.

But the problem with that is that you get political rumblings within the squad thinking that the colour of a man´s shirt dictates who is wanted and who is unwanted. Conversely you have a quota system in SA that does not necessarily reward form and seems forced and contrived.

But to me this 6N has a more even feel to it and it´s quite possible Scotland could field some players like Gray, Denton and Hogg and Wales might not have dominance in selections. But as soon as you start saying we need x amount of players from each Home Nation you run the risk of bowing to political pressures just as stacking a squad with one set of country´s players is bowing to the need for continuity and combinations. A happy balance is required that rewards form and an ability to change a game for the better.

You need a monster pack who can dominate the Aussie forwards, a goalkicker like Farrell who can bang over the pressure kicks and sustain pressure, and backs who have a cutting edge on attack as well as defence to contain and test the Aussie backline. From what I´ve seen in this 6N, Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland all have a little of that to offer but to varying degrees. A quota system won't achieve that. All for Lions and Lions for all.

Respect to the OP, at least he's got people posting here.

I've always thought that the only quota that there should be is to have one player from each nation in each test XXII. I don't think that there's been a Lions test side in the past 20 years where at least one player from each nation wasn't good enough to make it (and for those youngfellers out there, there were an awful lot of weakish Irish and Welsh sides in the 80s and 90s - just shows how crops of really good players come cyclically). One player out of 22. Surely that's not going to kill anyone.

Entirely agree that the squad should be selected on merit, of course.

Doesn't matter anyway. We're going to give the Aussies a good tonking with their trousers round their ankles and they know it.

Yes. It should include players from the 6 nations countries, not just these four.