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england u20 v italy u20

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aitchw
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Post by adambarney Mon 05 Mar 2012, 10:20 am

it getting to easy for England at youth level in six nations they play at 80% and still put 40 points past side, it time we start putting these young players in England Saxons level so they develop quicker. some quality prospects.the likes of the 2 props,ksevic,walker at 7 and 13 look very good.

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Post by Biltong Mon 05 Mar 2012, 10:29 am

The problem with england is their structure.

where d these guys end up?

I bet all in different clubs and then they dissappear as foreign players are selected over them and half of them don't even play HC ever due to the clubs not qualifying.

No use when your top youngsters play in a system dominated and controlled by clubs.

The RFU has too little control.
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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:18 am

biltongbek wrote:The problem with england is their structure.

where d these guys end up?

I bet all in different clubs and then they dissappear as foreign players are selected over them and half of them don't even play HC ever due to the clubs not qualifying.

No use when your top youngsters play in a system dominated and controlled by clubs.

The RFU has too little control.

A few of them are already playing at their clubs. Quite a few more are being kept out by young English players (the guys from the previous 4 reasonably successful U20 sides). That's 4 full club squads of English players under the age of 25. Perhaps if they haven't moved on enough for international rugby they should be dropped. There are a lot of late 20s early 30s English players who've never been good enough for international rugby. These guys should be dropped as well. We should keep renewing the squads every year and drop everyone over 22.

Biltongbek, I know you don't like stats but why don't you look at the previous years U20 and see how many of them go on to play for their clubs. Possibly compare them to their equivalent in other countries.

As for the RFU not having total control, that's how most English rugby fans want it I think. The club game is the purpose of rugby. International is a nice addition that is a result of several countries playing it (perhaps slightly under-doing it there). We could focus al of the decent young players in a few clubs and give them automatic qualification for the HEC. But the others would wither and die. Look at Newcastle after they've had all their decent players pillaged. Similar for Leeds and their acadamy players. We could say "**** you" but I'd rather not. I'd rather encourage a system where players stay with the home club and only move if that clubs have loads of players in that position already.

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Post by Biltong Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:28 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
A few of them are already playing at their clubs. Quite a few more are being kept out by young English players (the guys from the previous 4 reasonably successful U20 sides). That's 4 full club squads of English players under the age of 25. Perhaps if they haven't moved on enough for international rugby they should be dropped. There are a lot of late 20s early 30s English players who've never been good enough for international rugby. These guys should be dropped as well. We should keep renewing the squads every year and drop everyone over 22.

Biltongbek, I know you don't like stats but why don't you look at the previous years U20 and see how many of them go on to play for their clubs. Possibly compare them to their equivalent in other countries.

As for the RFU not having total control, that's how most English rugby fans want it I think. The club game is the purpose of rugby. International is a nice addition that is a result of several countries playing it (perhaps slightly under-doing it there). We could focus al of the decent young players in a few clubs and give them automatic qualification for the HEC. But the others would wither and die. Look at Newcastle after they've had all their decent players pillaged. Similar for Leeds and their acadamy players. We could say "**** you" but I'd rather not. I'd rather encourage a system where players stay with the home club and only move if that clubs have loads of players in that position already.


Hammer I do like stats, but to research english youth rugby and to see what happened to these youngsters is even too much of a stretch for me. But like you say, club is the priority and the national team not.

There is the problem.
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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:47 am

It's only a problem from one particular point of view (International). Some might say it's not a problem.

I'll look into it for you. Back soon.

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Post by Geordie Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:48 am

Its only the last 4/5 years that we have really started to dominate so much at u20's....and though its close we're still behind New Zealand.

I do worry why we can produce these players at the age groups...yet fail to develop them to senior internationals.

Maybe this will start to change and the senior team will start to see the fruits of this....

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:50 am

biltongbek wrote:The problem with england is their structure.

where d these guys end up?

I bet all in different clubs and then they dissappear as foreign players are selected over them and half of them don't even play HC ever due to the clubs not qualifying.

No use when your top youngsters play in a system dominated and controlled by clubs.

The RFU has too little control.

The RFU are the ones who control the elite system. One those players are on the ladder they are now managed through their careers untill ditched.

You can look at them and their coaches, like Stuart Lancatser, for the reason why succesive waves of players have failed to relaise their potential.

Its also been shown the world over that Unions are really bad at running clubs, the only real success I guess would be Ireland.

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Post by aitchw Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:56 am

But like you say, club is the priority and the national team not.

There is the problem.


Don't think that's a true reflection. If you don't have strong clubs you don't have the player base for the International side. Look at Scotland. What's wrong is the structure that doesn't manage progression. I think there's a bit of a sea change in the way clubs are utilising their youth with more of them getting valuable 1st team exposure than in the past. The clubs are finally realising that it's actually cheaper to nurture this talent than bring in waning stars or journeymen foreign pros. The financial incentives for retaing and playing youngsters should be upped to a level that makes expensive signings unattractive.

I think SL would have a huge impact on the England set up if he continues in post and can resist the temptation to play safe and settle for mediocrity. He probably knows better than most what England youth can offer the senior squad and that for a while at any rate a lot of England supporters would be in favour of a big experiment with youth in search of more entertaining and adventurous performances win or lose.

We (Leeds) got Diccon Edwards back from the RFU's youth development setup and he's made a commitment to using our academy to build a team around rather than imports predominantly. It is taking time and we may not make it back into the Prem next season but we have been improving massively as the season has gone on. SL is showing some signs that he might go on the same journey. Hope so.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 05 Mar 2012, 11:59 am

adambarney wrote:it getting to easy for England at youth level in six nations they play at 80% and still put 40 points past side, it time we start putting these young players in England Saxons level so they develop quicker. some quality prospects.the likes of the 2 props,ksevic,walker at 7 and 13 look very good.

Wehn are the saxons next getting together and playing?

I geuss that answer the question as to why some of these guys are playing in the U20s at the moment. Its a good chance for the england coaches to get their hands on them.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 05 Mar 2012, 12:16 pm

2008 - Premiership games

England U20 Forwards:
Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby) - 9+25
*Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie) 45+24 (also spent a season in Championship with Leeds)
James Clark (London Irish) 0+2
**Alex Corbisiero (London Irish) 20+33
Matthew Cox (Worcester Warriors) 10+13
Hugo Ellis (London Wasps) 1+12
Jon Fisher (London Irish) 0+14
Scott Freer (Leeds Carnegie) 1+2
Gregor Gillanders (Leicester Tigers) 0+1
Joe Gray (Northampton Saints) 25+12
Scott Hobson (Cornish Pirates) 0+3
**Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) 45+11
Billy Moss (Bath Rugby) 0+0
Ben Thomas (Saracens) 0+0 [assuming as not on website, probably never even in squad]

England U20 Backs:
Miles Benjamin (Worcester Warriors) 60+6 (also spent a season in Championship with Worcester)
Noah Cato (Saracens) 33+14
Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby) 35+16
*Alex Goode (Saracens) 72+1
Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons) 25+17
Mark Odejobi (London Wasps) 0+0
*Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby) 50+12
**Joe Simpson (London Wasps) 41+12
Seb Stegmann (Harlequins) 11+4 (missed two seasons with injury)
Alex Tait (Newcastle Falcons) 56+7
**Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins) 84+6
**Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers) 39+26

So out of 26:
5 have international caps (~19%)
8 have been part of full training sqaud (~31%)
13 are in the 1st choice 23 (50%)

Not sure how that compares to other years or other nations. I'll do 2009 squad next

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 05 Mar 2012, 12:32 pm

2009 - Premiership games

Bob Baker (London Wasps) - 4+18
*Calum Clark (Leeds Carnegie) - 45+24
James Clark (London Irish) - 0+2
Carl Fearns (Sale Sharks) - 33+10
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks) - 42+6
Jamie George (Saracens) - 4+21
Graham Kitchener (Worcester Warriors) - 11+20
Shaun Knight (Gloucester Rugby) - 0+4
**Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints) - 45+11
*Joe Marler (Harlequins) - 27+7
Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs) - 1+23
Josh Ovens (Bath Rugby) - 1+12
Dan Williams (Gloucester Rugby) - 0+1
Chris York (Harlequins) - 6+9

Backs (12)

Tom Casson (Saracens) - 3+5
Rory Clegg (Newcastle Falcons) - 18+18
Luke Eves (Bristol Rugby) - 35+16
Tom Homer London Irish) - 41+9
Dave Lewis (Gloucester Rugby) - 19+24
George Lowe (Harlequins) - 48+5
Rob Miller (Newcastle Falcons) - 25+17
*Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby) - 50+12
Seb Stegmann (Harlequins) - 11+4
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby) - 22+11
Greig Tonks (Leicester Tigers) - 11+1
**Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers) - 39+26

This year we've got 26:
Only 2 caps (and previously mentioned) (~8%)
5 involved in full international training squad (~19%)
14 probably in 1st choice 23 (~54%)

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Post by yappysnap Mon 05 Mar 2012, 1:22 pm

I may be wrong but isn't Tom Casson a 12 from Quins?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 05 Mar 2012, 1:54 pm

I bet all in different clubs and then they dissappear as foreign players are selected over them and half of them don't even play HC ever due to the clubs not qualifying.

Maybe in the past, but to use fly half as an example in the last friendly (vs Wales) England got a hefty win under their belts with the 4th choice England under 20 fly half. That fly half (Tommy Bell) has been playing regularly (albeit at fullback) for Leeds in the Championship this season. He was promoted because 1st choice George Ford was in the Leicester 23, 2nd choice Heathcote was in the Bath 23 and 3rd choice Mills was in the Gloucester 23 for that weekends Premiership games.

Foreign internationals are now harder to recruit because of the financial advantages Japanese and French clubs have and with tough economic times English clubs are looking to be frugal. With the RFU pumping money into regional academies there are more English players to choose from. This all means English clubs are finding more reasons to back English talent as it's more available (a fully professional Championship is helping as well) and it's cheaper.

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Post by HammerofThunor Mon 05 Mar 2012, 10:53 pm

And next year they're introducing addition wiggle room in the salary cap for players who came through club academy (not sure of exact details).

Yappysnap, Casson is at Quins now. The clubs are just from the press release of the squad announcement. Might have been a mistake or he might have been with Sarries at the time (players do switch academies a bit)

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Post by DaveM Tue 06 Mar 2012, 12:09 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:[
The RFU are the ones who control the elite system. One those players are on the ladder they are now managed through their careers untill ditched.

You can look at them and their coaches, like Stuart Lancatser, for the reason why succesive waves of players have failed to relaise their potential.

Does SL owe you money or something?

And Casson did move from Sarries to Quins a couple of years back.

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Post by Cumbrian Tue 06 Mar 2012, 9:40 am

Hmm, you don't need to look further than the England team to see that we are starting to move these guys on. Owen Farrell, Manu Tuilagi, Ben Youngs, Alex Corbisiero, Courtney Lawes, Callum Clarke, Joe Simpson and Charlie Sharples have all come through the U20's in the last few years. Not to mention that Joe Marler and Joe Launchbury are training with the senior squad. Yet there is still this idea that we are incapable of bringing through young players!
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 06 Mar 2012, 9:45 am

Cumbrian,.

We alwayys bring them through....its just they dont get any better after being near world champions they seem to turn into semi chumpions.

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