Ireland badly need a proper backs coach!

Looking back on the game at the weekend I would say our defense was immense, that we definately won the breakdown and put in a huge number of choke tackles that led to turnovers.However this is all well and good but with the possession we had we could not convert into points due to their lack of penetration and creativity in attack.
I think it's clear that Les Kiss can't do both jobs and Kidney should have realised this before the competition.There is no doubt he is a phenomenal defence coach.At times on Sunday our defence was our only form of attack aside from a bit of brilliance from Tommy Bowe and probably the best full back in the world wearing the green jersey doing what he does best we looked hopeless.I would like to hear who you think should be our new backs coach , I have thought of a two:
Eddie O' Sullivan-our attack hasn't anyway near as creative or inventive since he left.
Joe Schmidt-he plays a style of rugby that no one can question.

So, so, so, so badly need a backs coach.

At the minute i am more concerned about the head coach. I think we should see how kidney fares in the next two games and if he doesnt deliver then get rid and lets look at getting both a head coach and a backs coach.

In a perfect world we would have the Leinster management for Ireland.

Standulstermen wrote:At the minute i am more concerned about the head coach. I think we should see how kidney fares in the next two games and if he doesnt deliver then get rid and lets look at getting both a head coach and a backs coach.

I do think if we had a backs coach, and a good one at that, we wouldn't be overly concerned about our head coach. But we don't, so we are.

skippy wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:At the minute i am more concerned about the head coach. I think we should see how kidney fares in the next two games and if he doesnt deliver then get rid and lets look at getting both a head coach and a backs coach.

I do think if we had a backs coach, and a good one at that, we wouldn't be overly concerned about our head coach. But we don't, so we are.

well it depends. Kidney is an inherently conservative coach whose main weapon seems to be the garryowen. I dont see any sign of an expansive gameplan or designs to play a game based around ball retention. A new backs coach would most likely have to fit inside this remit which isnt really going to work.

Does a new backs coach deal with the selection issues we see. This weekend we have two starting lock netiher of whom would call a lineout for their province if POC/MOD are fit. At least Tuohy has been doing that. McCarthy as well i imagine. We are playing two number 2 jumpers in the engine room. we had excuses in the RWC year that changes couldnt be made in the build up. The only reason Ryan is starting is due to injury despite overhauling DOC at provincial level. I havent been happy with Kidney for a while but with the grand slam in the bag i believe he certainly earned the right to take us to the RWC. THats gone now and sentiment can play no part.

he should be on a knife edge at present and another home defeat should be it for him.

I agree that Kidney should be a knife edge all right and Id imagine if we lose this weekend he will be I do think however that the only aspect of our game that has been a real concern is a huge lack of a cutting edge in our back play and if we had a coherent back line there wouldn't be as much as an issue with kidney at the minute.

Standulstermen wrote:At the minute i am more concerned about the head coach. I think we should see how kidney fares in the next two games and if he doesnt deliver then get rid and lets look at getting both a head coach and a backs coach.

I agree stand. To me the other coaches implement the instructions and playing philosphy of the head coach, not the other way round. If the head coach wants to pick big physical scrum halves with a slow delivery, a predictable midfield and play a slow, defensive orientated game then the best backs coach in the world won't get the team playing exciting attacking rugby.

Kidney is playing the rugby that won munster the Heineken in 2008 and ireland the Slam in 2009.

It is out of date!

The decision was taken to look for a backs coach after the 6ns due to Gaffney leaving just prior to the 6ns. I believe the plan was to ensure that it was not a kneejerk reaction. although by the sound of it you would think there was some conspiracy by Kidney not to hire someone.

As I posted on the other thread I am not sure what is expected of the team selection he has picked the strongest team available based on form.

The reference to the garryowen doesnt make sense given the stats last weekend. Not sure Tuohy is the answer given how well DOC and Ryan are playing.

I dont agree that Kidney is playing the old way, that is a misnomer. The team are attempting to play a certain brand....they have scored most of their tries through the backline, It is true that they dont execute some things very well but I guess its Kidneys fault that they are dropping balls and overthrowing lineouts too?, I dont think that is the same as 09. Plus if he was playing like Munster did in 08 then correct me if I am wrong but they tended to run a lot of ball given the backs they had....however making the same old jaded statements when the facts speak otherwise

Yes we might be moving the ball but we are doing it off a platform of slow ball. Shipping the ball laterally across the backline is not creative rugby.

In terms of tries, most have been down to fortune or individual brilliance or both, not effective team play and execution. Even Bowes second try last week came from poor French defence and a fortunate bounce of the ball.

As a team we didn't create a single try scoring chance in 80 minutes.

They're moving the ball wide... aimlessly. No-one is drawing the man and giving the pass, no-one is picking a different running line or offloading the ball out of contact or running good support lines. No-one is actually committing any defenders ore creating space for the wingers who get the ball on the touchline at the same time as the defenders...

We may be trying to play an 'expansive' style of rugby but we obviously have no idea how to actually do that so what are intentions may be is an entirely moot point.

Our backplay works- off turnovers. We couldn't engineer an overlap in structured play if our lives depended on it. And there's not exactly much in the way of strike moves up our sleeves...

newbie wrote:The decision was taken to look for a backs coach after the 6ns due to Gaffney leaving just prior to the 6ns. I believe the plan was to ensure that it was not a kneejerk reaction. although by the sound of it you would think there was some conspiracy by Kidney not to hire someone.

As I posted on the other thread I am not sure what is expected of the team selection he has picked the strongest team available based on form.

The reference to the garryowen doesnt make sense given the stats last weekend. Not sure Tuohy is the answer given how well DOC and Ryan are playing.

I dont agree that Kidney is playing the old way, that is a misnomer. The team are attempting to play a certain brand....they have scored most of their tries through the backline, It is true that they dont execute some things very well but I guess its Kidneys fault that they are dropping balls and overthrowing lineouts too?, I dont think that is the same as 09. Plus if he was playing like Munster did in 08 then correct me if I am wrong but they tended to run a lot of ball given the backs they had....however making the same old jaded statements when the facts speak otherwise

Are you for real!

D'arcy has no form to speak of other than a decent break against Italy. DOC ditto.

I dont mind not using form as a sole arbiter for decisions. For instance Bowe wasnt in good form coming into the 6N but has rewarded his selection.

DOC's unseen work continues to get harder to see. he has been a phenomenal servant to Irish rugby and the spirit is willing (i particularly enjoy his reaction to trys whilst on the bench) the body is weak. His selection over ryan for the first three games was embarrassing.

I agree with you that Earls is the best OC available to us that is currently playing OC however.

It isnt kidneys fault that players drop balls or overthrow lineouts but if they do this continually and he continues to select them then yes, he is responsible.

Kidney has talked about playing a certain brand and changing our style since the Wales game in 2010 but there is little evidence of anything other than shipping the ball laterally or putting up a garryowen in two years of rugby. meanwhile our home record is in tatters, we are in line to finish 3rd or lower again in the 6N and all with bringing through only 1 player who wasnt in the RWC squad (from the bench). McCarthy might make it 2.

That is not progress and it certainly isnt rebuilding.

Also we kn ew that Gaffney was going from a month or two before the world cup NOT just before the 6N,.

Only problem with the theory is that we had a backs coach, and we were playing the same attacking game we are now.............. yep, I'm being ironic.

If Gaffney couldn't even make an impression in our attacking game and you can't even now tell that he's missing, then that says to me that the problem is more fundamental than simply having a backs coach.

It's about priority given to defence and attack. In this Irish side it is quite obviously defence that gets priority. So when defence is priority, your backs have to commit to that pattern as much as the forwards. It's a pattern that needs concentration for long periods...and it's therefore difficult for backs to find the time and priority for well drilled attack formations.

Attack is just not the priority in this Irish team and I don't think any backs coach will make an impression unless he demands a bigger section of the 80 minutes to be devoted to it.

Yes indeed I am for real. Just in relation to DOC he was very prominent against France but I guess you didn't see that. Plus touhy is not good enough. I did say in the Irish team thread that Darcy and the backrow apart he picked the strongest team. Having said that there is no one else better than him at the moment.

Look lads you clearly have your own views on kidney which I don't see changing given the comments about Munster style and garryowens or conservativeism. I see a team trying to develop and some players not performing as well as others finding the step up to be a little tougher. I believe we should be doing better and being consistent . Attack wise I am not sure what you are saying secretfly as besides saying we should attack all out from the start regardless of consequences it doesn't make much sense. Also I think the attack has been markedly different since Gaffney left..

newbie wrote:Attack wise I am not sure what you are saying secretfly as besides saying we should attack all out from the start regardless of consequences it doesn't make much sense. Also I think the attack has been markedly different since Gaffney left..

You're certainly entitled to your opinions, newbie - as you had the good grace to admit some of us who differ have ours.

No, attack is not markedly different to when Gaffney was in control. That's just not so - in my opinion.

And explain how what I say about attack 'doesn't make much sense'. Tell me why, rather than just saying it doesn't. It makes perfect sense to me so I'd like it explained to me where it's wrong thinking.

It isnt about a munster style. Munster are playing a lot more rugby than they ever did under Kidney because that is how the game has developed. Munster have developed, Kidney hasnt.

DOC doesnt get across the gainline anymore, he isnt a great lineout forward. What set him apart was his workrate and he doesnt have it. I hate pulling in stats because they are usually dodgy but he is averaging 5/6 tackles a game which isnt great under the remit i have stated.

He has been a great servant. Tuohy isnt good enough you say but neglect to mention why a guy who has been standout against teams like Biarritz, Stade, Clermont and Leinster, as well as calling a nearly flawless lineout with Andy Kyriacou throwing no less and being 6 years younger isnt as good.

He has played and performed a lot better than DOC this season. We were fed the line that Mick O'Driscoll was constantly called up to the international set up due to him calling a lineout, long after his body had given up the other aspects of lock play. I accept this as MOD was a bloody brilliant lineout forward. Now it seem we are starting with 2 number 2 jumpers neither of whom is 1st or 2nd choice caller at their province.

If you cant see the difference there then i dont know. Its not about being anti-munster. it is just an example. D'arcy is as much a liability in midfield as a lot of moves die with him at 12. it isnt feasible to have someone whose physicality is so suspect, doesnt pass well and doesnt kick standing at 12 in the modern game. yet we do it. Kidney picks the team; he must take the blame.

Two very good posts there stand