The Clever One vs The Special One

I've a quick question regarding Nathan Cleverly and Kell Brook. One is regarded as an ultra talented future world champion who has the beating of most in his division already. The other is a world champion but is seen as an over protected one who fights mediocre opposition and wouldn't handle the cream of the 185 lbers.

In my eyes their careers have followed similar paths. Both undefeated and have mainly fought at home. I think Bellews as good a win if not better than anything Brook has beat. Both haven't really fought anyone of note so how come Kell Brook gets cut far more slack than Cleverly when it comes to his level of opposition? I hear things like give Brook time to learn his craft and he'll be special whereas Cleverly needs to get a move on and stop fighting binmen and nurses etc. They're both still only 25 but with a lot of Clevs previous career split between boxing and his maths degree it can be argued that he's had less time to develop and learn his trade than Brook has.

I don't have a preference for either fighter. In terms of current talent and potential I think Brook is a good bit ahead but this is even more of a reason for him to have stepped it up by now. Clev was handed a world title but that's hardly his fault he was hardly gonna turn it down. So why is it that Brook is given more slack when it comes to his level of opposition and taking his career to the next level, while Cleverly is targeted and much criticised for developing at the same pace?

You've answered your own question there PP, it is down to the fact that Cleverly is parading around as a world champion. If Brook was WBO champion and fighting who he has been he's get dog's abuse too.

Talent plays a large part in it as does the strength of the respective divisions, the top men are out of question for Brook at the moment but beyond that I give him a great chance against anyone but Cleverly I feel would struggle against the Macks and Campillos let alone the big boys.

As a 'world' champion who is seemingly unwilling to fight top-ranked opposition (thus far, at least), Cleverly is one of the results of all the problems in boxing these days, whereas Brook isn't. That Cleverly didn't ask to be made champion at this stage is irrelevant, really. The fact is that he has a title, so there's simply no excuse for him not taking on the top ten guys in his divison at the very least. As a world champion, he should be obliged to fight a significantly better level of competition than someone like Brook.

Also, his infuriating "I'll fight the winner of Hopkins versus (insert name of whoever Hopkins' upcoming opponent)" isn't doing him any favours. As far as I know, Brook hasn't been talking up his chances of fighting Mayweather, Pacquiao etc.

He's targeting Khan but considering they are both english fighting around the same weight it seems to be a very realistic prospect within the next year or so, he knows that he offers nothing to either Pacquiao or Mayweather although wins over any of Ortiz, Khan, Berto or Jones would put him in line.

He's a "world champion" if you can class it as that.

Kell Brook isn't. He hasn't had a sniff of a belt yet.

If you're a champion, you should be fighting ranked contenders within the top 10 of your weight class. Kell doesn't have that to contend with.

/topic.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:He's targeting Khan but considering they are both english fighting around the same weight it seems to be a very realistic prospect within the next year or so, he knows that he offers nothing to either Pacquiao or Mayweather although wins over any of Ortiz, Khan, Berto or Jones would put him in line.

I'm firmly in the "sit on the fence" camp when it comes to Brook. I think he's done little to warrant being rated as the next best after Mayweather or Manny and will wait and see how he does when stepped up in class before getting too excited. However, in saying that I think he's all wrong for Khan. While he's not the typical fighter you'd imagine troubling Khan I think he has the timing and poise to outbox him as well as the punch to take him out.

I echo Chris' comment.

Brook has fought someone who was ranked number 5 in The Ring Magazine's ratings last year.

Then he fought a can in America which is understandable considering he had to show his skills across the pond.

Matthew Hatton is still a decent test for a domestic fighter and Kell showed how good he is by cruising to a win against him. Its not his fault he is leagues above Hatton.

But the "still learning" excuse holds merit for Brook because he isn't a "apprentice" World Champion like Clevery.

Cleverly is going backwards tbh, and in his fight against Bellew it was stated that Bellew proved he was world class by holding his own against Nathan, but I would argue that it was the other way round, it showed that Nathan isn't in the world class bracket he claims to be. And his level of opposition and ducking of manatories is starting to back this up.

Both fighters need to seriously step up their opposition but I must admit it does baffle me a bit when Cleverly get criticised for his poor opponents which is fair but then Sheffields finest tomato can basher Kell gets a jail free card on beating Polish binmen for the last 7 years. I dont buy all this nonsense about how because Brook does not hold an alphabet title it's alright for him to fight all this Euro trash. Either he wants to succeed or he doesn't. Based on his last 7 years as a fulltime professional (which Cleverly wasn't until 2010) I seriously doubt the Special One will be taking on anyone of note soon. Both fighters have talent the truth being that Brook probably has more, but they both frustrate me and both deserve equal amount of criticism I really do not understand why Brook seems to have some immunity on here to anyone questioning his opponents and ambition.

Yeah Hatton, N'Dou, Jennings and Jackiewicz were all polish bin men weren't they?

Jimmy Moz wrote:Both fighters need to seriously step up their opposition but I must admit it does baffle me a bit when Cleverly get criticised for his poor opponents which is fair but then Sheffields finest tomato can basher Kell gets a jail free card on beating Polish binmen for the last 7 years. I dont buy all this nonsense about how because Brook does not hold an alphabet title it's alright for him to fight all this Euro trash. Either he wants to succeed or he doesn't. Based on his last 7 years as a fulltime professional (which Cleverly wasn't until 2010) I seriously doubt the Special One will be taking on anyone of note soon. Both fighters have talent the truth being that Brook probably has more, but they both frustrate me and both deserve equal amount of criticism I really do not understand why Brook seems to have some immunity on here to anyone questioning his opponents and ambition.

Because he DOESNT claim to be something hes not.

Remember Brook was woefully managed by Warren for a good bit of his career, since he has moved to Matchroom they are guiding him against way better opposition than Warren would ever have got him.

Brook is being matched against dencent opponents now as Ghosty pointed out, but he should have been fighting these kind of people when he was with Warren. He didnt fight these types then so he has to do it now in order to ease his way into the big picture.

Blame Warren for this, but Matchroom are doing a decent job with him.

So if that's the case then it should be Warren getting criticised for Cleverly's poor opponents so far?

The other is a world champion but is seen as an over protected one who fights mediocre opposition and wouldn't handle the cream of the 185 lbers.

---------------

It would be a start if he could handle the cream of the 175lbers!

Jimmy Moz wrote:So if that's the case then it should be Warren getting criticised for Cleverly's poor opponents so far?

Get with the programme Jimmy, slating Clev is the new passtime round here, I have spent a few days reading the comments on here and have come to realise it is clev's fault for everything from the rise of MMA, Manny and Floyd not fighting to the situation in Syria.

And before everyone gets all upset I am not saying this to defend him his opposition is pitiful, but he is a "world" champion facing rubbish, the sport is awash with them, lets maintain a level of perspective.

Yes Rowley I agree I havn't had much chance to read on here recently and when I have it's mainly been the rugby section but evertime I get a glance in work at the boxing section it's normally which atrocity has the evil Cleverly commited today.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:He's a "world champion" if you can class it as that.

Kell Brook isn't. He hasn't had a sniff of a belt yet.

If you're a champion, you should be fighting ranked contenders within the top 10 of your weight class. Kell doesn't have that to contend with.

/topic.

This sums up what needs to be said. Tooting my own horn a bit, but its fairly obvious that as a champion, you are "the best" and you will beat "the best" - Cleverly has done nothing of the sort as the people he's beaten haven't been at the level other champions ranked similarly have, the likes of Dawson, Bhop, Cloud etc but also the contenders in the division. Cleverly is fighting people ranked WAY down. Kell is fighting people WAY down but he doesn't HAVE to fight championship level opponents - he's not a recognised world champion. When he is, and if he fights the same level of opposition, he'll get ripped apart too.

I have been in a tete a tete recently with regards to the sheer awfulness of Cleverly's work so far in comparison to Calzaghe at a similar stage.

More now than even back in the 90s / 00s world champions or supposed world champions such as Cleverly are scraping barrels of previously inconceivable depths with regard to his choices of opponent.

Calzaghe at a similar stage already chalked off Eubank and Reid and consider the ire he generates when people talk about HIS record?! Meanwhile, Cleverly so far has no names whatsoever to identify him as a world champion. It could even be argued that his earlier work of beating the likes of Murat and Oakey are more idenifiable than anything he's done as a champ. To have your standout win as Bellew, when this should have been his gimme win really does scream volumes.

If Nathan's not careful he'll be developing a German accent and uprooting to the Fatherland, as this is the only place in the world that will happily accept their champions fighting such trash.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote:He's a "world champion" if you can class it as that.

Kell Brook isn't. He hasn't had a sniff of a belt yet.

If you're a champion, you should be fighting ranked contenders within the top 10 of your weight class. Kell doesn't have that to contend with.

/topic.

This sums up what needs to be said. Tooting my own horn a bit, but its fairly obvious that as a champion, you are "the best" and you will beat "the best" - Cleverly has done nothing of the sort as the people he's beaten haven't been at the level other champions ranked similarly have, the likes of Dawson, Bhop, Cloud etc but also the contenders in the division. Cleverly is fighting people ranked WAY down. Kell is fighting people WAY down but he doesn't HAVE to fight championship level opponents - he's not a recognised world champion. When he is, and if he fights the same level of opposition, he'll get ripped apart too.

While you're tooting your horn can you answer why Brook is seen by many on here as the next best welter after Manny and PBF despite not beating a decent level welter yet? Surely to be classed as such a prospect he should surely be beating or have beaten opponents on the cusp of Championship level?

Not really, the manner of which he operates is the indication of his talent. Cleverly never really had that. Take Murat for instance - not exactly the easiest opponent to deal with, and Cleverly struggled. Late notice perhaps but even still he was difficult and awkward for Clev to cope with. Some said its his style, but it was that Clev wasn't THAT much better. Kell has easily outclassed all of his opponents so far, including Hatton who lets not forget, took Saul Alvarez the distance - which is no mean feat and spoiled Saul Alvarez to looking weak and he was a World Champion. Clev can't boast that sort of opponent.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Not really, the manner of which he operates is the indication of his talent. Cleverly never really had that. Take Murat for instance - not exactly the easiest opponent to deal with, and Cleverly struggled.

What fight were you watching? Cleverly annihilated Murat. That is his best win by miles and that's what I pointed out in my earlier post. Since becoming a champion Cleverly has regressed to fighting binmen.

Mohammedi sorry, not Murat.

Cleverly seems to have found his level and Kell has yet to step out of 1st gear by all appearances so people attack the easy target. I have noticed however an increasing impatience with Kell brooks opponents.

and the fact his mandatory Sukhotsky destroyed Mohammedi in a couple of rounds says it all as to why Clev is ducking.

When I was watching the Mohammedi fight I was thinking "Is this a career best for Mohammedi or is Cleverly making him look good?"

Cleverly had no answer to Mohammedi and although he was moving forward, it was a struggle for him to land. He didn't alter anything to cope and eventually only managed a UD through higher workrate.

Cleverly seems to have become the latest villian in boxing. To be honest I find it hard to get too worked up about him and cant actually see why emotions run high with him. Hes not much different to a host of paper champs in the sport that have been around for ages. Add to that hes not actually all that talented it seems and just find myself pretty lkewarm on his career. Nothing much to get excited opponent. But he seems to be getting treated as the cause of the problem of paper champs when I think hes more a product of it.

Brook looks to have far more potential, so in some ways while I understand the honus on Cleverly in greater by virtue of being world champion, I am actually a bit more impatient with Brook as I think he is ready for some big fights. However I think Matchroom are trying to develop his fanbase a bit first and build him a bit and become more financially viable. Hes in a position where not too many guys in the division will be rushing to fight him unless he can show he brings some decent money to the table and can sell.

Its a similar problem with Cleverly. He has the the belt of course, but that wont be enough to tempt guys like Pascal, Hopkins, Dawson or Cloud if there is no money in it for them and Cleverly as champion will not want to be taking small contracts for that kind of fight.

I was going to post an article like this the other day but I guessed it would probably result in me getting totally slated and the usual attempted ganging up and cyberbullying from the usual suspects. Agree with the OP though its all true

Steffan wrote:I was going to post an article like this the other day but I guessed it would probably result in me getting totally slated and the usual attempted ganging up and cyberbullying from the usual suspects. Agree with the OP though its all true

Maybe if you didn't take every critisism of a welsh boxer as a personal insult then people wouldn't be as harsh steffan.

Super D Boon has been talking openly on his thoughts about Cleverly and Calzaghe recently and I haven't seen him cyberbullied as you put it.

What's your thoughts on Cleverly ducking his mandatory in all seriousness?

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:What's your thoughts on Cleverly ducking his mandatory in all seriousness?

Like in a lot of situations where someone is meant to be ducking someone else there are often other issues involved and I imagine that Warren is up to something. Not defending Clev I would be more than happy for him to leave Warren and join that smug loathable Eddie Hearn at Matchroom but I think a bit like Fury not fighting Price due to the Channel 5 v Sky issues there is slightly more to it but admit it doesnt look good

Has Bellew left Warren??

He is on Sky Sports schedule as fighting McIntosh.

88Chris05 wrote:As a 'world' champion who is seemingly unwilling to fight top-ranked opposition (thus far, at least), Cleverly is one of the results of all the problems in boxing these days, whereas Brook isn't. That Cleverly didn't ask to be made champion at this stage is irrelevant, really. The fact is that he has a title, so there's simply no excuse for him not taking on the top ten guys in his divison at the very least. As a world champion, he should be obliged to fight a significantly better level of competition than someone like Brook.

Also, his infuriating "I'll fight the winner of Hopkins versus (insert name of whoever Hopkins' upcoming opponent)" isn't doing him any favours. As far as I know, Brook hasn't been talking up his chances of fighting Mayweather, Pacquiao etc.

http://www.boxingscene.com/kell-brook-pacquiao-human-i-think-i-beat-him--50947

d260005p wrote:http://www.boxingscene.com/kell-brook-pacquiao-human-i-think-i-beat-him--50947

Yes but it is ok for Kell Brook to call out Pacquiao as the Special One isnt a world champion who claims to be something he is not...

Where has he called Pacquiao out?

From what i've read he simply suggests that he's capable of beating him and that he's looking to progress his career, a far cry from Cleverly banging on about the big men in the division when he has no intention of facing them.